Wow... what I love about this whole Clemens business is that it shows the tendency towards irrationality for institutions like the Mitchell commission combined resulting from greed. There was no reason to put Clemens in the report. They had very little (no?) corroboration from other witnesses and they only *needed* Clemens insofar as they wanted to have another big name. But by stretching the truth on Clemens, they've brought the whole report into question. Everyone else in the report (including Bonds) can just hide behind Clemens at this point. "If they're wrong about Roger, they could be wrong about me to."

Wow... what I love about this whole Clemens business is that it shows the tendency towards irrationality for institutions like the Mitchell commission combined resulting from greed. There was no reason to put Clemens in the report. They had very little (no?) corroboration from other witnesses and they only *needed* Clemens insofar as they wanted to have another big name. But by stretching the truth on Clemens, they've brought the whole report into question. Everyone else in the report (including Bonds) can just hide behind Clemens at this point. "If they're wrong about Roger, they could be wrong about me to."

There is no rational basis to say they 'stretched the truth' on Clemens or treated him differently, though. They gathered information and published the results.

Characterizing it as a vendetta against Clemens is what he's trying to sell, and while it is possible there is zero evidence right now suggesting that's what happened. So, I think the better view is that they published something he has denied and right now, there's no basis for crediting his denial rather than the report itself.

Clemens in 1996: 139 ERA+ in 242 innings.

1997: 221 ERA+ in 264 innings. Triple crown, cy young award.
1998: 174 ERA+ in 234 innings. Triple Crown, cy young award.

According to the Mitchell report, mcnamee never injected clemens with anything in 1999 since he was still with the bluejays

Clemens in 99: 103 ERA+ in 189 innings.

Seems to me that steroids had a pretty big effect on rocket. allegedly of course.

The one bit of information that is missing from the Mitchell Report is who was McNamee selling or injecting with the PEDs he bought between 2001, the last year he said he injected Clemens, and 2004?

Via Baseball Musings

The Report

Honestly, nothing in this report refutes the argument that Clemens used PEDs, or supports the argument that Clemens didn't use PEDs. Clemens could have had the more or less the same career performance with or without PEDs.

1997: 221 ERA+ in 264 innings. Triple crown, cy young award.
1998: 174 ERA+ in 234 innings. Triple Crown, cy young award.

According to the Mitchell report, mcnamee never injected clemens with anything in 1999 since he was still with the bluejays

Also according to the Mitchell report, McNamee never injected Clemens with anything in 1997. He started in 1998.

For 1996-1997, ERA+ doesn't tell you that the 1996 Red Sox had the crappiest defense in the league, a .665 DER. Only one other team was below .680. The 97-98 Jays were an average to slightly above average defensive team. Roger improved his control in 1997, though the real story is that in 1996 he walked more batters than he ever had before. 1997 he just returned to a more normal walk rate, by his standards.

There isn't anything in Roger's statistical record that says yes or no to the steroid question. Hendricks is accurate in stating that Roger's fastball speed has declined. His durability has taken a huge hit as he's aged, he should not even approach 100 pitches anymore before you go to the bullpen. He once was able to throw 150-175 with no problem at all.

This is not to say that Roger is innocent, listening to him on 60 minutes and the McNamee phone call I don't find him very believable. But the statistical record tells you nothing about this.

There isn't anything in Roger's statistical record that says yes or no to the steroid question

That's basically what I meant to say in post 7

From The Mitchell Report: Clemens said that he was not able to inject himself, and he asked for McNamee's help.

To me, this seems like a man who has indeed at the very least tried using before 98. How would Clemens know for a fact that he couldn't inject himself if he didnt at least try it once before? and what was he doing with bottles of winstrol? If the allegations are true, to me it's very unlikely that he merely started mid-season of 98. Mid-season of 98 is when mcnamee started injecting him, but I'm willing to bet his steroid use started sometime in the 97 season.

"Hendricks is accurate in stating that Roger's fastball speed has declined."

Over recent years, sure, not with toronto though.

How would Clemens know for a fact that he couldn't inject himself if he didnt at least try it once before?

That same bit of information tells me Roger was a beginner. He may have tried it once or twice. But if you take any injections regularly it becomes no big deal very quickly.

As a diabetic, it took me all of two days to go from deathly afraid of needles to thinking its no big deal at all.

Clemens' 1998 monthly splits are interesting. The Mitchell report has the alleged injections taking place in June 1998 and Clemens' did have a monster 2nd half after an average first half. It's pretty weak circumstantial evidence on any account.

As a diabetic, it took me all of two days to go from deathly afraid of needles to thinking its no big deal at all.

INSULIN IS CHEATING

Wow... what I love about this whole Clemens business is that it shows the tendency towards irrationality for institutions like the Mitchell commission combined resulting from greed. There was no reason to put Clemens in the report. They had very little (no?) corroboration from other witnesses and they only *needed* Clemens insofar as they wanted to have another big name.

Well, I'm on record as taking the approach that I'm giving Clemens the benefit of the doubt until I hear more. But based on the ridiculously low standard of proof used by Mitchell to include at least some players in the report, Clemens certainly qualifies. McNamee's statements are a strong piece of evidence.

The problem, as you note, is that that's all there is.

"That same bit of information tells me Roger was a beginner. He may have tried it once or twice. But if you take any injections regularly it becomes no big deal very quickly."

Maybe, or maybe whoever was injecting him before no longer was with the team. Nobody knows but Clemens, and I doubt we ever learn the whole truth.

“Clemens’ longevity was due to his ability to adjust his style of pitching as he got older, incorporating his very effective split-finger fastball to offset the decrease in the speed of his regular fastball caused by aging,” said the report, created by Randy Hendricks and two associates at his firm.

Of course it's true that Clemens's strikeout rate declined in his late 30s and into his 40s.

The problem is that people will just move the goalposts and say that steroids helped his durability. Of course, he wasn't pitching as many innings then either. But then the claim will be that he wouldn't have been able to take the mound at all without steroids.

Clemens in 1996: 139 ERA+ in 242 innings.

1997: 221 ERA+ in 264 innings. Triple crown, cy young award.
1998: 174 ERA+ in 234 innings. Triple Crown, cy young award.

According to the Mitchell report, mcnamee never injected clemens with anything in 1999 since he was still with the bluejays

Clemens in 99: 103 ERA+ in 189 innings.

Marko, did you miss the best season of those four years, 1997, which was before McNamee claims he injected Clemens?

EDIT: I see AROM made this point in #8.

But then the claim will be that he wouldn't have been able to take the mound at all without steroids.

Cy Young, Warren Spahn, and Nolan Ryan must have been on steroids too late in their careers.

This is not to say that Roger is innocent, listening to him on 60 minutes and the McNamee phone call I don't find him very believable.

I thought he did better at the press conference than on 60 Minutes. And the press conference was a harder venue.

Though I don't think we can draw any conclusions from his performance in the phone call, since Hardin gave him strict instructions in preparation of that.

As a diabetic, it took me all of two days to go from deathly afraid of needles to thinking its no big deal at all.

Mitchell should have looked for suspiciously large purchases of oranges in the mid 90s.

By the way, this report released by Randy Hendricks is yet another indication that Clemens probably won't be singing a different tune in front of Congress.

"Marko, did you miss the best season of those four years, 1997, which was before McNamee claims he injected Clemens?"

No, I didn't. I believe Clemens used steroids in 1997. Just like I believe Bonds used steroids in 2003-2004, despite game of shadows claiming he used from 99-02.

They didn't pay me that well, but it was a labor of love, so it was worth it.

1996 was a weird year for Clemens. His defense behind him was absolutely brutal--just as bad as AROM's numbers suggest. It seemed at the time that he was walking so many batters because he had decided that he was not going to let his fielders lose the game for him--he would strike them out or walk them. This was a departure from what he had been doing in the 1990s up to that point--keeping his walks low and using the splitter to get more grounders.
Overall, it worked about as well as you could expect. (As an aside, I think Clemens became obsessed with being a pitcher rather than a thrower in the late 1980s. He would constantly talk about how strikeouts weren't as important as getting outs with grounders, etc. I think it may have hurt him a bit but it's hard to argue with the results.)

His success in 96 seemed to remind him that he was, in fact, a very good power pitcher. With no more worries about his defense, he could mix his new power approach with his very effective splitter. Voila, the return of the great pitcher.

From The Mitchell Report: Clemens said that he was not able to inject himself, and he asked for McNamee's help.

To me, this seems like a man who has indeed at the very least tried using before 98. How would Clemens know for a fact that he couldn't inject himself if he didnt at least try it once before? and what was he doing with bottles of winstrol? If the allegations are true, to me it's very unlikely that he merely started mid-season of 98. Mid-season of 98 is when mcnamee started injecting him, but I'm willing to bet his steroid use started sometime in the 97 season.

The Mitchell report info comes from McNamee. This bit of information about Clemens not wanting to inject himself is no more illuminating than McNamee saying that he injected Clemens. IOW, if you're going to believe McNamee, you might as well just believe the part where he says he injected Clemens--why go any deeper than that?

"Marko, did you miss the best season of those four years, 1997, which was before McNamee claims he injected Clemens?"

No, I didn't. I believe Clemens used steroids in 1997. Just like I believe Bonds used steroids in 2003-2004, despite game of shadows claiming he used from 99-02.

But if you're going to accept McNamee's version of events as truth, then from what McNamee says, it doesn't seem that Clemens knew much about steroids before 1998. For example, Clemens asked for McNamee's help in injecting him. From page 169 of the Mitchell Report:

Towards the end of the road trip which included the Marlins series [in June 1998], Clemens approached McNamee, or shortly after the Blue Jays returned home to Toronto, Clemens approached McNamee and, for the first time, brought up the subject of using steroids. Clemens said that he was not able to inject himself, and he asked for McNamee's help.

Also, McNamee says that later that summer Clemens showed McNamee a bottle of Androl-50 and wanted to know more about it.

That doesn't sound like someone who is well versed in steroids to have been using them before 1998.

And I see your comments in #10. I find them unconvincing.

I can just picture Clemens, standing in the locker room half-mast with a gigantic syringe in his right hand, contorting himself every which way trying to get the proper angle for sticking his backside.

Hey, whatever gets you off, Kevin.
But I don't think you need to tell us all about your fantasies...

I can just picture Clemens, standing in the locker room half-mast with a gigantic syringe in his right hand, contorting himself every which way trying to get the proper angle for sticking his backside.

At least he wasn't singing "My Humps" while doing it.

That would've opened the seventh seal all by itself.

Best Regards

John

"Also, McNamee says that later that summer Clemens showed McNamee a bottle of Androl-50 and wanted to know more about it.

That doesn't sound like someone who is well versed in steroids to have been using them before 1998."

Because he's asking about one steroid? Why didnt he ask him the samething about winstrol? You would think the beginner who never used anything before would ask questions about all steroids, not just one.

I would guess that he asked McNamee about Androl-50 because that is what he had a bottle of....but maybe I'm just crazy.

But if you're going to accept McNamee's version of events as truth, then from what McNamee says, it doesn't seem that Clemens knew much about steroids before 1998. For example, Clemens asked for McNamee's help in injecting him. From page 169 of the Mitchell Report:


Towards the end of the road trip which included the Marlins series [in June 1998], Clemens approached McNamee, or shortly after the Blue Jays returned home to Toronto, Clemens approached McNamee and, for the first time, brought up the subject of using steroids. Clemens said that he was not able to inject himself, and he asked for McNamee's help.

Wait: you take that as illustrating Clemens's ignorance of steroids? Why couldn't that illustrate instead his knowledge of it; as in, "Hey, I have never been able to inject myself - can you do it for me?"

Wait: you take that as illustrating Clemens's ignorance of steroids? Why couldn't that illustrate instead his knowledge of it; as in, "Hey, I have never been able to inject myself - can you do it for me?"

That's how I see it. The man, IMO, at the very least tried injecting himself a few times before, and had problems with it, so he had to find his own personal "injector".

I would guess that he asked McNamee about Androl-50 because that is what he had a bottle of....but maybe I'm just crazy.

But this was <u>after</u> McNamee had already allegedly injected Clemens with Winstrol. The thinking being - Clemens asking about Androl-50 suggests that Clemens is interested in knowing all about things before he injects them into his body, so, since Clemens <u>didn't</u> ask McNamee about the Winstrol he had him inject earlier that season, this could imply that Clemens must have already known about Winstrol, which could imply that Clemens had already used Winstrol before, perhaps the previous season. That's a lot of "coulds" of course, but I think that's the argument being posited here.

The man, IMO, at the very least tried injecting himself a few times before, and had problems with it, so he had to find his own personal "injector".

He's an Injector
Off Of Roger's - From Hissing Brian, Are you the Career Destroyer

My, my
You busted me
Like a Robothal, strike three
With your perfect Winstrol
I'm forever going steroids-free tomorrow
But tonight, like success, knows no shame

Oh yes, he's an injector
I can't inject myself

I had hoped it would be Andy
Who could be the other boy
To just walk up right up behind me
But he can't, he can't, he can't

My, my
This Androl 50
Of the master's hand, prick me
Why, I don't understand
And I know you betrayed me
Sold my tale to Mitchell to save your a$$
Still, I want you

Oh yes, he's an injector
I can't inject myself

Ha! This PR game that Clemens is playing is a joke...and unless he pays off McNamee, he will lose...

Wait: you take that as illustrating Clemens's ignorance of steroids? Why couldn't that illustrate instead his knowledge of it; as in, "Hey, I have never been able to inject myself - can you do it for me?"

That seems less likely than thinking that he was flat inexperienced to begin with (again, assuming McNamee's version is the truth), but fine. I don't know anything more than anyone else does.

In fact, it seems I know a lot less about what Clemens did than certain people (marko and kevin) in this thread.

That's how I see it. The man, IMO, at the very least tried injecting himself a few times before, and had problems with it, so he had to find his own personal "injector".

A few days before, fine. But a year before?

To me, this seems like a man who has indeed at the very least tried using before 98. How would Clemens know for a fact that he couldn't inject himself if he didnt at least try it once before? and what was he doing with bottles of winstrol? If the allegations are true, to me it's very unlikely that he merely started mid-season of 98. Mid-season of 98 is when mcnamee started injecting him, but I'm willing to bet his steroid use started sometime in the 97 season.

That makes not the slightest bit of sense. If he couldn't inject himself, then how did it start in the 1997 season? Well, someone else may have done it. But then why did he need McNamee in 1998? Why didn't that other person keep doing it?

Meanwhile, if someone comes up to you and says, "I can't do X; will you do it for me," it's entirely reasonable to think that he tried it himself and couldn't do it. But normally one would think he tried it earlier that day, not a year before. If someone came up to you in June 2008 and said, "Can you open this jar of pickles? It's stuck and I can't do it," you probably wouldn't immediately leap to the conclusion, "Gee, I'll bet he tried to open it in June 2007."

No, I didn't. I believe Clemens used steroids in 1997. Just like I believe Bonds used steroids in 2003-2004, despite game of shadows claiming he used from 99-02.

You do understand that these things require evidence, not faith, right? (Seriously, what's with the notion that this is a question of "belief"?)

marko, have you ever tried to inject yourself with anything?

If not, leave it to those who have to speculate on what it implies about Roger Clemens.

As for the pickles analogy, you'd presume they hadn't been at that particular jar for too long, but they very likely could have had trouble with a jar of pickles before, and got someone else to help them with it.

It is my belief that Buddy Sorrell injected Pickles in the ass no less than 20 times between 1961-66.

FWIW, a friend asked me to inject him with steroids once, as he only had lower gauge (thicker) needles than he was used to. This was probably several months to a year after he started using steroids for the first time. Not having ever done it to myself or anyone else before (or since), I declined, not wanting to screw it up. I advised him he could probably do a better job himself.

Are steroid injections IM or IV?
IV injecting your own butt sounds almost impossible. IM seems like it would be pretty easy to accomplish.

IM (intramuscular). Still can be painful and there are certainly ways to do it wrong.