If I'd heard of Bobby Tolan, I'd forgotten.

Bobby Tolan's story is interesting, if not entirely happy. In 1969 at age 23, he put up a 124 OPS+ as center fielder for the Reds. The next year he put up a 126 OPS+, more than doubling both his walks and stolen bases. And then he missed all of the 1971 season after he ruptured his Achilles tendon playing basketball. At age 26 he won the Hutch Award in 1972 hitting for a 110 OPS+, but his power was gone. In 1973, the bottom dropped out -- he hit for a horrific 57 OPS+ and squabbled with management. By age 30 he was a backup outfielder.

Other people probably knew all of that, but I only just learned it by looking him up on wikipedia, so I figured I'd share.

Yeah, Bobby Tolan turned into a pumpkin just in time to miss becoming a beloved cog in the Big Red Machine.

"Baseballer"?

Is it retro day at CNN?

Is it retro day at CNN?

No applesauce. He was feared by the boxmen for what he could do to the pill.

No applesauce. He was feared by the boxmen for what he could do to the pill.

And the kranks went wild.

Yeah, Bobby Tolan turned into a pumpkin just in time to miss becoming a beloved cog in the Big Red Machine.

I had his baseball card from 1975/76 or thereabouts. I also vaguely remember him being on a list of "busts" I read somewhere - no mention of his injury though.
Other names I remember from the list were Rich Coggins, Bernie Carbo (never hit .300 after his rookie year!) Gene Clines...

I'm thinking it was probably in Baseball Digest (There "should" be a stash of 30-40 year old digests in my mother's garage, one of these days...)

Tolan was a terrific young player who ruptured his Achilles tendon playing basketball in 1971. Though he came back to win Comeback Player of the Year honors in '72, he was never really the same. He had some off-the-field problems, including some problems with Reds management, which led to his being traded, I believe to San Diego. At his peak, he could do it all--run, hit with power, throw, and play a very good center field. He ended up giving way to Cesar Geronimo, a better fielder but an inferior player in all other respects.

As great as the Reds were in 75-76, it's scary to think about what Tolan's presence in the lineup would have added.

Between this and the BART shooting, it hasn't been a great week for law enforcement.

That's some fine police work, Lou.

Nice to know that "driving while black" is still a crime in Texas.

Robbie Tolan's pro stats, in case anyone's interested.

Undrafted free agent who bounced out of Washington's system and was playing indy ball. Probably didn't have much of a baseball career ahead of him either way, though it really sucks that it had to end like this.

Nice to know that "driving while black" is still a crime in Texas.

He wasn't even driving when he was stopped by the cop - he'd already stopped the car (which his family owned) in the driveway of the house where he lives (which his family owned), and was walking up the driveway. The cop really screwed up on this one.

From the article:

As they walked up the driveway to their home, Anthony Cooper said an unidentified man emerged from the darkness with a flashlight and a gun pointed at them.

"We did not know it was a police officer," said Cooper. "He said, 'Stop. Stop.' And we were like, 'Why? Who are you?'"

Obviously this is only one side of the story, but it almost sounds like the cop was already there waiting for them.

I tried without success to find a photo on-line, so maybe another 40-something or older BTFer can confirm my recollection: was Tolan the guy who held his bat very high over his head before starting his swing? I'm talking about the bottom of the bat being even with his ear and the barrel sticking straight up. Anyone?

Between this and the BART shooting, it hasn't been a great week for law enforcement.

And a significantly worse week for people who have had to interact with law enforcement.

Van Lingle, yes, Tolan held his bat up very high, maybe even higher than Yaz.

VLMJ, that's my recollection.

EDIT: One carbonated beverage for Mr. Markusen, please.

Well if it's any consolation he'll be set for life when he sues the bejesus out of the police department.

I think I'd prefer to not be set for life, and not have a hole in my lung and a bullet in my liver.

If you didn't have any holes in your lungs, how would the air get in?

This page has photos of some Tolan baseball cards that give a decent look at his stance.

The article about the incident is pretty embarrassing for the PD.

Glad to see y'all finally picked up the story. the Chronicle's covered it since it started. Most definitely a case of driving while black and a lousy job of covering it. "Police know the cars in the area and pull over ... " Yeah, well this car lives in the damn area, whyn't you know it? And the cop? Good friend of the Bellaire Mayor/City Manager.

Houston's got problems enough. This is like Barney Fife.

And a significantly worse week for people who have had to interact with law enforcement.

Well, yeah. That's what I meant.

And a significantly worse week for people who have had to interact with law enforcement.

Is there such a thing as a GOOD week for people who have to interact with law enforcement?

Van Lingle, yes, Tolan held his bat up very high, maybe even higher than Yaz.

At least as high as Yaz, yes. Though not quite Dick McAuliffe completely-hilarious-high.

Though not quite Dick McAuliffe completely-hilarious-high.

Or Craig Counsell.

going to be interesting to get to the bottom of this

best i know, robbie has zero history of any, uh, previous interaction with cops (no idea bout his cousin)

i do know that cops who are after a car/person they think is involved in a crime will wait until the car has stopped and the people get out. BUT the not saying nothing bout being the cops and just having a light/gun is flat out, um, a problem (lets put it like that) and since when does only 1 policeman chase a car that is supposed to be stolen?

bellaire is almost all rich white/asian and there are some poor Black kids who go to the bellaire skools too

i wonder if there will be some kind of payoff and this will go away

but it doesn't really sound quiiiite like DWB - which i have got stopped for my own self. more like something personal - like robbie been dipping it where it don't belong you feelin me here

Though not quite Dick McAuliffe completely-hilarious-high.

Wow, I had no idea! That is amazing!

that has GOT to be craig counsell - you never seen him bat before?

Probably didn't have much of a baseball career ahead of him either way, though it really sucks that it had to end like this.

The first time I read that line in the article, I thought the same thing. The second time, I realized that it was just his lawyer saying it -- it sounds to me like his lawyer's just setting up his lawsuit. Which made me a little sad. Robbie Tolan should get whatever he deserves without his lawyer's needing to pretend that Tolan had any sort of a baseball career cut short by the incident.

Sorry to hear about Tolan's son.

I remember his stance as being way way above the ear, almost with no bend in the elbow. That's how we did his stance playing Wiffle ball, anyway.

The Reds had a ton of talent in after '73 when he was traded.
They replaced Menke (couldn't hit) with Driessen at third.
They had Geronimo in CF.
With Rose in LF, they were trying to work Griffey and Foster into the lineup, so Tolan became expendable.

They had 3 starting LHP (Gullett, Norman and Grimsley; plus RH Billingham) in '73, and Nolan was still hurt, so they traded Tolan for (the late) Clay Kirby, who was a great young RH starter K's guy (with a lot of walks though) to replace Grimsley-- who was sent to Baltimore for Rettenmund (the O's had Bumbry, Coggins and Baylor arriving on the scene).

Then, in '75, they moved Rose to 3B (Sparky was a genius), Driessen became a reserve, and Griffey and Foster were full-time. With pitching, Nolan returned and was great, so Kirby kinda got pushed to the side (except for 6 weeks when Gullett broke his finger). Sparky had six solid starters if you include Pat Darcy. Kirby wasn't even on the playoff roster in '75 because of the solid pitching glut. I don't remember him being hurt.

Cincy sent Kirby to Montreal for Bob Bailey after '75, so they must have really been down on him-- then '76 had the arrival of Zachry and Alcala, two rookie studs. Pretty fascinating-- by '77, Gullett was in NY, Nolan's arm blew completely out, Perez was sent to Montreal (for maybe a Woody Fryman type or Dale Murray) to make room for Driessen at 1B this time. Once Seaver arrived for Zachry, the Reds then dabbled with Bill Bonham- Woody Fryman types (plus the aging Norman) until the whole cart collapsed in '82 (though they developed Pastore, LaCoss and Leibrandt and Joe Price, all solid young guys). I don't know why the soured on Darcy, Kirby, and Alcala so quickly. Also, at the time I thought Zachry was gonna be great long term. Pretty fascinating.

Generally, I think they should've avoided those Montreal trades-- it was kind of like they were forcing themselves to dump Perez, who still had talent.

Sorry, am I talking too much?

billyjack

no you are not talking too much. i like stories about baseball teams i wasn't alive for when the fans talk about them.

as long as you aren't trying to tell me that Back Then all the baseball players were perfect lil choirboys never done a sin in their life

In Roger Maris for the Hall of Fame campaigns, the "count the rings" argument emphasizes Maris's role with the '67-'68 Cardinals. Maris was a useful contributor to those teams, if not exactly a star. But the question arises: if the Cardinals had not had Maris, what would they have done? The answer is that they probably would have gotten more playing time out of Bobby Tolan. Tolan was young and green at the time, and maybe not completely ready, and he would probably have been a slight downgrade from Maris - but only slight. The team would still have won both pennants.

Yeah, Bobby Tolan turned into a pumpkin just in time to miss becoming a beloved cog in the Big Red Machine.

Indeed. He was traded to San Diego in 1974, so as a Red and Padre with kind of a sad story, he is an old fave of mine, although just a little before my time.

Then, in '75, they moved Rose to 3B (Sparky was a genius), Driessen became a reserve, and Griffey and Foster were full-time. With pitching, Nolan returned and was great, so Kirby kinda got pushed to the side (except for 6 weeks when Gullett broke his finger). Sparky had six solid starters if you include Pat Darcy. Kirby wasn't even on the playoff roster in '75 because of the solid pitching glut. I don't remember him being hurt.

billyjack,

In case you are not aware, Joe Posnanski has a book about the 1975 Reds coming out in a couple of months. I am looking forward to it.

Do you know what the title is?

This is like Barney Fife.

My read is that this is a very accurate statement. It sounds to me like, while the guy probably detained them due to race, it's unlikely (though not necessarily impossible) that he would shoot them just for that. No, what it sounds like to me is he had his gun on them and when Mom started making a ruccus (don't blame her) and the kid moved (don't blame him) the cop panicked. I further guess that he stupidly had his finger on the trigger as opposed to along the side of the gun and that his stress caused him to fire the gun "accidentally". IOW, I imagine a scenario that could easily have happened - and if I remember my Andy Griffith correctly - did happen to Deputy Fife (although Fife missed more often than not).

Accidental discharge of a firearm is somethng that should not happen to a professional but firing at a suspect lying on the ground is also not something that should happen. Like I say, it's possible this is a cop with a bent toward murder but I find it more plausible that he was acting all tough but was, in fact, just a scared coward who can't handle his gun.*

One way he should be fired. The other he should be fired and fried.


* I suppose it's also possible that the guy was doing his job and the kids were up to no good and the cop was actually threatened. But it sure doesn't sound like it so far.

My problem with what I know about this incident and the BART incident is that it seems highly questionable whether a firearm should have even been drawn in the first place. Cops are trained to draw their firearm only when they perceive a likely mortal threat to themselves or others. Unnecessarily drawing their weapon actually increases their chance of being hurt, since that threat tends to agitate the suspect who is typically not well-trained in handling a firearm. In other words, law enforcement officers are drilled throughout all their training that drawing a firearm preemptively is not a smart strategy and that they should refrain from doing so for their own self-interest.

That weapons were drawn in these incidents reflects very poorly on the officers' judgment, and the quality of their training. So even if they did discharge accidentally, they are criminally negligent IMHO.

I could see the cop firing accidentally, but it's hard for me to see how the cop could've accidentally fired at least three shots.

bunyon,

trouble is that this guy is a 10 YEAR veteran of the bellaire police force and that this kid and his family had lived in the same house for 15 YEARS and bellaire is not exactly a large area

who would have callen in a stolen car report on a car that wasn't stolen - a report that has not been verified? and this was robbies' car, NOT his mother's

and firing THREE shots at a guy lying face down?

the kidz were up to no good? idaknow bout that - it would have come out

Isn't that exactly why Andy only let Barney have one bullet at a time?

Do you know what the title is?

According to Posnanski's site, it is called The Machine and will be out in March of this year.

bunyon --

Barney shot himself in the foot a couple of times, but never managed to shoot anyone else.

My read of the thing is that Mom came and wigged out on the cop, the cop probably pushed or hit her back, and Tolan the Younger had the "Don't hit my Mom!" reaction, the cop saw the guy get up and come at him and shot. It all makes sense that way, but is still a colossal screw-up.

billyjack's #29 made me go look earlier - just how and when did he leave the Cardinals?

Tolan was a part of the '67-'68 pennant winning teams, at ages 21 and 22. He did play quite a bit, getting just under 300 PA in each season. He didn't particularly hit: OPS+ of 95 and 83 in the two years. He was CF-capable at the time, but that was largely wasted on a team that already had Curt Flood.

Between '68 and '69 the Cardinals traded Tolan and a potentially useful young relief pitcher (Wayne Granger) to Cincinnati for Vada Pinson. Tolan would be 23 in 1969, and was a 4th outfielder coming off an undistinguished year. Pinson would be 30 in 1969 (unless he would really have been 32 - there's room for suspicion) and was certainly an established star, albeit one who had already been declining for several years.

The very next year, Tolan (OPS+ 124) substantially outplayed Pinson (OPS+ 92). After that, the Cardinals sent Pinson off to Cleveland (where he did have a bounce-back year or two) for Jose Cardenal. They got a year and half out of Cardenal before shipping him off to the Cubs for a utility infielder and a guy who never made the majors. (They needed Cardenal to play CF because they'd just traded Flood - you may have heard about the consequences of that transaction.)

In retrospect, Tolan for Pinson does not look like a good trade for the Cardinals. They could have just kept Tolan, played him in RF, and considered him as a possible replacement for Flood in center.

In retrospect, Tolan for Pinson does not look like a good trade for the Cardinals. They could have just kept Tolan, played him in RF, and considered him as a possible replacement for Flood in center.

Even at the time it looked nutty. Hell, I was 10 and wondered what they were thinking. Pinson, whether he was 30 or 32 (FWIW, his daughter came onto a HOM thread and vouched for the fact that he was born in 1938), had suffered an injury-marred down year in '68. And Granger was a wicked young sidearmer, extremely effective against RHBs.

I would say the trade was a consequence of the Cardinals being frustrated at having blown the 1968 World Series after having a 3-games-to-1 lead, but the fact that this trade was announced as soon as the series ended suggests that it had been negotiated earlier. I thought they were giving up too much to get something they didn't need, and that's how it turned out.

The answer is that they probably would have gotten more playing time out of Bobby Tolan. Tolan was young and green at the time, and maybe not completely ready, and he would probably have been a slight downgrade from Maris - but only slight. The team would still have won both pennants.

i remember reading in sports illustrated after the 68 series that tolan was in the clubhouse shaking his head and asserting the cards were the better team all the way, or something like that. that series just about broke my heart.

That weapons were drawn in these incidents reflects very poorly on the officers' judgment, and the quality of their training. So even if they did discharge accidentally, they are criminally negligent IMHO.

True. I wasn't arguing that the guy is a good cop. I was just trying to figure how someone could shoot a guy the way the story is described. Also, I hadn't caught on that he fired three shots. If that's true...well, words aren't available to me. Just as I'd reserve judgement on a "bad guy" I would like to for the cop as well. But if the stories are even close to true, this guy should be in jail. (The cop that is).

True. I wasn't arguing that the guy is a good cop. I was just trying to figure how someone could shoot a guy the way the story is described. Also, I hadn't caught on that he fired three shots. If that's true...well, words aren't available to me. Just as I'd reserve judgement on a "bad guy" I would like to for the cop as well. But if the stories are even close to true, this guy should be in jail. (The cop that is).

Well, as a general rule, anyone worth shooting is worth shooting more than once. The problem here is Robbie Tolan was not worth shooting. Based on what I've read, the cop had no business even drawing his gun in that situation. Not a big shock ... most cops spend very little time training with firearms (which makes sense when you consider how seldom they use them), and are often sloppy with muzzle/trigger control. It's still no excuse though... I'm having a REAL hard time coming up with a good explanation for shooting an unarmed man in the back. Prison time for the cop methinks.

I'm having a REAL hard time coming up with a good explanation for shooting an unarmed man in the back.

It's even harder to come up with a good explanation when you clarify it as shooting an innocent man in the back three times after failing to properly identify yourself and threatening his mother. If even half of what is alleged is true, this cop is likely heading to prison.

It's even harder to come up with a good explanation when you clarify it as shooting an innocent man in the back three times after failing to properly identify yourself and threatening his mother. If even half of what is alleged is true, this cop is likely heading to prison.

He was only shot once in the back. The other two shots fired ended up in the ceiling of the front porch.

This is what's known here in the Lone Star state as 'texas justice'. In other words, if you're not white, and have short hair...