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Wednesday, March 10, 2010

Conlin: Phillies have best infield of baseball’s modern era

“What kind of a fool do you think I am?
You think I know nothing of the modern world”

And ponder this . . . Has any non-expansion team ever had the three best players in franchise history at the same time? The closest I could come was Roy Campanella, Jackie Robinson and Duke Snider from Brooklyn’s Boys of Summer.

And how often have you seen a major league infield line up 1-2-3-4 in the batting order?

These are giddy, historic, times for the Phightins.

There will be challenges to my best infield of the modern-era assertion, of course, including a couple I debated myself.

You could throw a blanket over the numbers put up by the Phillies and Yankees infields in 2009. New York’s quartet of Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Robinson Cano and Mark Teixeira slammed 112 homers, three more than the Phillies with Feliz at third. But the Phils’ Fab Four won the RBI war, 393-373.

...Pat Gillick was the Baltimore Orioles’ GM in 1996, when an infield of B.J. Surhoff, Cal Ripken, Robbie Alomar and Rafe Palmeiro put up some sick numbers. With Rafe “With God As My Witness” Palmeiro leading the way by producing 39 homers and 142 RBI, that infield pounded 108 homers and drove in an amazing 420 runs, an average of 105 for each infielder. But, sorry, Palmeiro hangs an asterisk on those numbers. Just as A-Rod hangs one on his Yankees infield.

Repoz Posted: March 10, 2010 at 11:21 AM | 35 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
  Related News: GeneralHistoryPhiladelphia

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   1. Koot Posted: March 10, 2010 at 12:34 PM (#3476339)
A few years back, Joe Morgan wrote a similar article for ESPN, except talking about the Rangers infield at the time (Teixeira, Blalock, Young and Soriano). But, he concluded that the best infield of the modern era was the Big Red Machine.
   2. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: March 10, 2010 at 12:37 PM (#3476344)
But, he concluded that the best infield of the modern era was the Big Red Machine.

And he was right.

edit: Although, the Yanks infield last year was damn good. I haven't looked yet to see how they compare historically.
   3. AJM Posted: March 10, 2010 at 12:53 PM (#3476350)
Has any non-expansion team ever had the three best players in franchise history at the same time?

Is he talking about the Phillies and Rollins, Utley and Howard?
   4. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: March 10, 2010 at 12:56 PM (#3476353)
They don't even have the best one player in franchise history at the present time.
   5. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: March 10, 2010 at 12:56 PM (#3476354)
Is he talking about the Phillies and Rollins, Utley and Howard?

Can't be. Can't ####### be.
   6. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 10, 2010 at 12:57 PM (#3476355)
Thome-Alomar-Vizquel-Fryman, for a year though not for everyone's careers.
   7. AJM Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:00 PM (#3476357)
They probably have the three best Phillies in baseball this year.
   8. Eric J is Financed by a Rich Grandpa Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:17 PM (#3476367)
Has any non-expansion team ever had the three best players in franchise history at the same time?

If you're limiting franchise history to post-1901, the Cubs had Banks, Williams, and Santo simultaneously, and there's at least an argument that they're 1-2-3 in some order.
   9. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:21 PM (#3476369)
You know, I'm not even sure Rollins is better than Garry Maddox. Has Conlin already forgotten Garry Maddox? Is this true generally in Philly? That would be a shame--Maddox is the Philly version of Dwayne Murphy and so should have a statue erected in his honor outside the stadium.
   10. Josh1 Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:27 PM (#3476374)
Does anyone have the WAR database set up in a way to easily see what infield had the highest cumulative WAR?
   11. Steve Parris, Je t'aime (M. Valentin) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:28 PM (#3476377)
Conlin may have meant the three best Phillies at their positions, though it doesn't read that way.
   12. TomH Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:29 PM (#3476380)
or win shares
   13. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:32 PM (#3476382)
For one year, the 2009 Yanks and the 1976 Reds are almost neck and neck, and for a 2B-SS-3B combination it's the 1948 Indians. With two offensive mediocrities like Rollins and Feliz, the 2009 Phillies aren't even in the discussion.
   14. Eric J is Financed by a Rich Grandpa Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:38 PM (#3476387)
Conlin may have meant the three best Phillies at their positions, though it doesn't read that way.

If Conlin can't come up with a non-expansion team that's had its best players at each of three positions at the same time, he's not trying very hard.

A's: Foxx, Cochrane, Simmons
Reds: Morgan, Bench, Perez
Twins: Killebrew, Carew, Oliva
   15. Nathan Kunkel Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:02 PM (#3476406)
Dude must be referring to Howard, Rollins and Utley being the best at their respective positions in franchise history.

Edit: coke to Steve

Edit 2: from TFA: "In 2009, the three best players in franchise history at their positions combined for 97 homers."
   16. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:20 PM (#3476423)
If Conlin can't come up with a non-expansion team that's had its best players at each of three positions at the same time, he's not trying very hard.

The 2009 Yankees could conceivably make it, and they're the MF-ing Yankees!

ARod and Jeter are slam dunks, and Cano could conceivably make it. Gordon's got the short career. Lazzeri's the real competition.

"Push 'em up" Tony had 7058 PAs of a 121 OPS+ for NY. To date, Cano's at 3036 and 113. He probably can't catch him on quality, but could get close, if he avoids another disaster year, and beat him in quantity.

Funny how the Yankees haven't had superlative IF's.
   17. Misirlou's got a busy day, he's wearing a vest Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:28 PM (#3476435)
Thome-Alomar-Vizquel-Fryman, for a year though not for everyone's careers.


For one year, I'll take the 1982 Brewers.
   18. Dag Nabbit and his imaginary friends Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:36 PM (#3476451)
Conlin may have meant the three best Phillies at their positions, though it doesn't read that way.

Boy, I hope so. I mean, Conlin was in Philly for the entire careers of Mike Schmidt, Steve Carlton, and Billy Hamilton - he really should no better.

Looking at b-ref's PI. Howard has the best OPS+ of any Phillies first baseman with at least 1200 PA. Rollins is similary tops with shortstops. Utley is second to Nap Lajoie at second, but has almost twice as many games played.
   19. SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:46 PM (#3476459)
For one year, I'll take the 1982 Brewers.

This.
   20. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:56 PM (#3476473)
For one year, I'll take the 1982 Brewers.\

They're up there, but Gantner was a weak link offensively, with a 99 OPS+. The 2009 Yanks' worst was Cano's 129.
   21. Sean Forman Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:01 PM (#3476482)
Teams where the four infielders batted 1-4 the most times.


year_game team_id in_top_4 |
+-----------+---------+----------+
|      
2004 COL     |      123 
|      
1998 ATL     |       93 
|      
1956 CHC     |       83 
|      
1974 PHI     |       78 
|      
1990 DET     |       77 
|      
2004 BAL     |       65 
|      
2007 WSN     |       59 
|      
2007 FLA     |       56 
|      
1979 LAD     |       54 
|      
1956 STL     |       49 
|      
2008 ATL     |       49 
|      
2006 FLA     |       47 
|      
2004 TEX     |       41 
|      
2004 STL     |       41 
|      
1999 BOS     |       40 
|      
1983 MIL     |       35 
|      
2008 WSN     |       35 
|      
1953 DET     |       35 
|      
2003 OAK     |       31 
|      
1998 MIL     |       30 
   22. Dan Szymborski Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:11 PM (#3476494)
It's too bad that Naehring missed a ton of time (as usual), because the '97 Red Sox Vaughn/Valentin/Garciaparra/Naehring infield was ridiculous when it was on the field.
   23. Dag Nabbit and his imaginary friends Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:12 PM (#3476497)
The 1965 Reds had a great infield.
   24. Misirlou's got a busy day, he's wearing a vest Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:12 PM (#3476498)
For one year, I'll take the 1982 Brewers.\

They're up there, but Gantner was a weak link offensively, with a 99 OPS+. The 2009 Yanks' worst was Cano's 129.


Well, are we just talking hitting or overall value? by WAR:

Cooper - 5.9
Gantner - 2.9
Yount - 11.5
Molitor - 7.0
Total - 27.3

Tex - 5.9
Cano - 5.1
Jetes - 6.5
Rod - 3.9
Total - 23.4
   25. Dag Nabbit and his imaginary friends Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:19 PM (#3476503)
By sOPS+, the best offensive infields since the mid-1950s:

1976 CIN 138
1965 CIN 138
1982 MIL 132
1974 CIN 131
1975 CIN 131
1963 STL 128
2007 NYY 128
1972 CIN 127
1994 HOU 127
1969 MIN 127
2002 NYY 126
2008 NYY 128
   26. bjhanke Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:53 PM (#3476722)
If you're willing to work with Win Shares, Bill James discuses this issue in some detail in his Historical Baseball Abstract (the 2001 version). It's in the comment on Ken Boyer, whom he has ranked #12 at third base (which, BTW, is much higher than the Hall of Merit has Boyer, and would put Boyer solidly in Bill's personal Hall of Fame, if he were to do such a thing). Bill's conclusion was that the best infield ever was the 1914 Philadelphia As, with the $100,000 infield. He has the 1982 Brewers second, if I remember right.

A lot of the lists of best three players in franchise history above suffer from not going back to the dead ball era or even earlier. If you're dealing with the Cubs, Three Finger Brown should be on the list, and so should Cap Anson; if you don't like Brown, look up John Clarkson. Gabby Hartnett would like some love, too. If the A's, you have to have Eddie Collins and maybe Home Run Baker. The Cardinals have Musial and Gibson in 1963, but Rogers Hornsby is back in the 1920s. - Brock Hanke
   27. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: March 10, 2010 at 06:23 PM (#3476756)
Why does the catcher never count as part of the "infield" on these lists?
That'd just strengthen the Big Red Machine's case, of course.
   28. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: March 10, 2010 at 06:23 PM (#3476757)
EDIT: double post.
   29. tl; dr (Voxter) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 06:39 PM (#3476761)
Conlin: I'm a fat and lazy old coot who grows less relevant with each passing day. Luckily, we live in a mean and venal universe in which sloth is often rewarded over curiosity and hard work, so I'm rich as hell -- which I'll be glad to tell you all about if you try to engage me in debate.
   30. Danny Posted: March 10, 2010 at 06:50 PM (#3476766)
Well, are we just talking hitting or overall value? by WAR:

Cooper - 5.9
Gantner - 2.9
Yount - 11.5
Molitor - 7.0
Total - 27.3

Tex - 5.9
Cano - 5.1
Jetes - 6.5
Rod - 3.9
Total - 23.4


2001 A's
Giambi: 10.3
Menechino: 3.7
Chavez: 6.4
Tejada: 4.4
Total: 24.8

(using CHONE's WAR)
   31. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: March 10, 2010 at 06:53 PM (#3476769)
Danny: stop depressing me.
   32. jwb Posted: March 10, 2010 at 08:57 PM (#3476881)
The Tigers' Trammaker infield maxes out at 21.4 in 1990, with Cecil Fielder and Tony Phillips in the corners.
The Dodgers' 1970s infield peaks at 17.2 in 1976, which really surprises me. They were very well regarded at the time.
The Big Red Machine breaks 20 in 1973 (20.9 Perez/Morgan/Concepcion/Menke), 1975 (22.9 Perez/Morgan/Concepcion/Rose), and 1976 (22.3 same).

All WARs from CHONE.
   33. mex4173 Posted: March 10, 2010 at 09:35 PM (#3476917)
I think Bill James mentions in the NHBA that those Dodger infields always had an injured member during some other members peak season, so they never got the one big score in.
   34. fhomess Posted: March 10, 2010 at 09:59 PM (#3476950)
Has any non-expansion team ever had the three best players in franchise history at the same time?

I thought perhaps he meant "at their respective positions" since I couldn't figure any other way it remotely made sense. i.e. Rollins is the best Phillie SS ever, Howard the best Phillie 1B ever, and Utley the best Phillie 2B ever.
   35. BK Arbour Posted: March 11, 2010 at 05:31 PM (#3477415)
I'm surprised to see the 1965 Reds on these lists of great infields. It's DJohson-LCardenas-PRose-GColeman/TPerez. Looking at their stats, they seem solid. Everybody is above average, but no one stands out. Their OPS+'s are 131-115-127-127/111. They're all offensive plusses, but none are MVP level seasons.

It is really just a matter of four guys who are each above average making a great infield. It seems like the 82 Brewers (3 players at MVP or near-MVP levels) and the '01 A's (two >6.0 WAR's) feel more like a great infield should.
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