Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, February 11, 2008

CS Weekly: Bernstein: Survivorship Bias

Against the Gods: The Remarkable Story of Al Capone, Roger Clemens and Steroids.

It’s the players who hit 762 home runs or win 354 games that generate the suspicion, especially when they not only fall outside of the normal statistics, but when they can play better, and for far longer than most, to achieve such things. It’s not just that Barry Bonds hit home runs, it’s that he hit 73 (when he’d never hit more than 47) at an age when his numbers, while still good, should have been traveling in the opposite direction. It’s not just that Clemens was pitching into his 40’s, it was that he excelled, and pitched even far better than he did at times 10 years earlier.

We can fight ourselves over the logic of numbers, and even over the logic of age … but both?

Clemens argument also brings out another point.

It is difficult to conclude anything about the use of performance enhancing drugs by looking at statistics. The Rocket is correct that players go through ups and downs in their careers—the man is a historian, remember—because they always have. And it is foolish to conclude that any “up” period must be artificial.

Roger Maris never hit 40 home runs in a season, except for the one year he hit 61. Must have cheated that year, right? (Or the fact that he was in his greatest groove coincided with the fact that he was hitting in front of a hot Mickey Mantle. He was never intentionally walked.)

Repoz Posted: February 11, 2008 at 02:47 PM | 6 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
  Related News: GeneralNY YankeesSteroids

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 1 pages
   1. Bob Dernier Cri Posted: February 11, 2008 at 03:17 PM (#2688065)
Clemens, and his attorney’s argument reduces to the observation that he was no better, in fact somewhat worse, than other pitchers who continued to play into their 40s, such as Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, and Curt Shilling.


The "Curt Shilling" was a coin from the reign of James II, so called because it was "curtailed," or clipped, to reflect a shortage of silver at the Royal Mint.

But seriously, I think one reason that Clemens, and his attorney make this argument is that you see so often in the press and even among statheads the remark that Roger couldn't possibly be clean because he had an ERA+ of some number at some such age. Naturally, and sensibly, they try to refute that claim by pointing to the fact that it's nonsense.

The only reason to think that anyone's been juicing is evidence that they've actually used juice, evidence which is a lot more substantial in Roger's case now than for most other suspects. He could still be clean, or he could be dirty, but looking at his ERA is not going to help settle the matter – Bernstein is certainly correct on that score.
   2. Kyle S Posted: February 11, 2008 at 03:29 PM (#2688071)
For those who haven't read it, Against the Gods is a fantastic book.
   3. Van Lingle Mungo Jerry Posted: February 11, 2008 at 04:19 PM (#2688102)
Curt, shilling? Dog bites man.
   4. Sawney Snows Posted: February 11, 2008 at 04:42 PM (#2688114)
Bernstein is certainly correct on that score

Really, on all his scores. You're talking about one of the greatest composers in history.
   5. Jeff K. Posted: February 11, 2008 at 05:17 PM (#2688148)
For those who haven't read it, Against the Gods is a fantastic book.

It is. I read it for a Finance class and didn't sell it back. Why are you bringing it up, though?

Oh, and the formatting on that site is puke.
   6. jwb Posted: February 11, 2008 at 08:13 PM (#2688278)
If Schilling gets groschen, the Red Sox won't have to give him as much coin.
Page 1 of 1 pages

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
The Ghost of Sox Fans Past
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogRosenthal: Swapping Figgins for Ichiro at leadoff could revive Mariners' offense
(2 - 7:54am, Feb 10)
Last: Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader

NewsblogSources: Cubs’ Starlin Castro Accused Of Sexual Assault
(5848 - 7:49am, Feb 10)
Last: Lassus:

NewsblogL.A. Times: 11 bidders remain in running to buy Dodgers
(8 - 7:41am, Feb 10)
Last: LionoftheSenate (is roaring!)

NewsblogNY Daily News: Brian Cashman's accused stalker says Yankees GM misled feds on steroid probe
(51 - 7:30am, Feb 10)
Last: ray james

NewsblogFangraphs: Cameron: The 10 Worst Transactions Of The Winter
(87 - 6:59am, Feb 10)
Last: LionoftheSenate (is roaring!)

NewsblogOrioles Scouts Banned from Korea
(7 - 6:30am, Feb 10)
Last: Swedish Chef

NewsblogMONEYBALL~ Oscar Nominations 2012: Academy Award Nominees List ~ MONEYBALL
(595 - 6:22am, Feb 10)
Last: Quiet Flows the Don Taussig Avenger (Edmundo)

NewsblogKnobler: Stay away from steroids -- but vote how you want
(20 - 6:11am, Feb 10)
Last: Athletic Supporter leads the nation in drifters

NewsblogJeff Sullivan: The Worst Team Ever Projected?
(51 - 5:57am, Feb 10)
Last: Sam Hutcheson is the 'saur with the rainbow roar

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 2-10-2012
(4 - 5:37am, Feb 10)
Last: Not The Real Fausto Carmona (Dan Lee)

NewsblogWhatever Happened to the Spitball?
(19 - 4:19am, Feb 10)
Last: toratoratora

Transaction Oracle2012 ZiPS Projections - Texas Rangers
(19 - 3:53am, Feb 10)
Last: Jebuddhallah

NewsblogGrantland/Bill James: An Open Letter to the Hall of Fame About Dwight Evans
(26 - 2:04am, Feb 10)
Last: DanG

NewsblogNYT: Alderson Remakes Needy Mets From Bottom Line Up
(41 - 1:37am, Feb 10)
Last: PreservedFish

Newsblog'Duk: Tim Lincecum slims down with swim routine, loses appetite for McDonald’s
(282 - 12:44am, Feb 10)
Last: MM1f

Buy MLB playoff tickets, plus 2011 World Series, 2011 ALCS tickets and NLCS game tickets. We also have Texas Rangers playoff schedule, tickets to Red Sox games and Yankees game tickets. Plus, buy Phillies baseball tickets, Tigers playoff tickets and the biggies like ALDS baseball tickets and 2011 NLDS tickets.

Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats

 

 

 

AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets.

Page rendered in 0.3025 seconds
40 querie(s) executed