Looking at the guys the Pirates got... Ascanio looks like a useful middle reliever. Harrison is a 22 year old 3B, 6th round pick last year, who's hitting fairly well in A-ball and will presumably move up to AA whenever Alvarez goes up to AAA (may be soon; the Pirates seem intent on humming Alvarez along). Kevin Hart is an utter waste of time.

A lot of it depends on Harrison's chances of ever becoming anything, but it actually doesn't seem like bad a haul for a ho-hum lefthanded reliever and a failed prospect. I also read on MLBTR that Grabow is going to be Type A; the Pirates probably wouldn't have offered him arb, but the Cubs can afford to, and that makes this a pretty big win for the Cubs.

Setting aside handedness, is Grabow even better than Ascanio right now?

Gorzelanny was born in the Chicago suburb of Evergreen Park and grew up in Oak Forest - jut like I did. Does anyone know where he went to elementary school?

Not a fan of this trade. Cubs need a lefty in the pen, yes, but this is a dumb way to go about it.

First, they give up the guy who was presumably going to fill in as the fifth starter for the next month (Hart). Then they toss in a guy with a lot of upside with set-up/closer potential in Ascanio.

In return, we get our lefty. But with Hart's departure, Marshall almost surely goes back into the rotation, leaving us with one lefty in the pen. Wasn't the point of the trade to get ANOTHER lefty in the pen?

Never mind they threw in Gorzelanny. I think I thought of Wade ####### Miller more recently than Gorzelanny.

I don't see this being one of those crippling trades, but it seems like the Cubs could've put an innings-eating starting pitcher and young, live bullpen arm to better use in the trade market.

"Kevin Hart is an utter waste of time."

As a Tiger fan who has moved to Pittsburgh, I find the Bucs endlessly entertaining and, somehow, they have turned me into a big fan.

I don't know much about the guys they just picked up, but I find it interesting that you say Hart is a waste of time and the Post-Gazette has him as the featured picture on the Pirates page. Thus, posing THE dilemma of the 21st century - buy into what I read on the internets, or frame my opinions around the information supplied by the mass media...hmmm

http://www.post-gazette.com/pirates/

16 walks, 9 strikeouts? I'm guessing "complete waste of time" is closer to the truth.

Hahaha... yes, because a 26 year old who walks 6 batters per 9 innings is always a showstopper. You have to understand, the P-G caters to an audience that is absolutely incensed the Pirates traded Freddy Sanchez--FREDDY SANCHEZ!!! A .300 HITTER!!!--for some minor league pitcher. Said audience will be thrilled because look--they got a major league player in this trade!!!

Maybe I was excessively rude to him, though. Let's try again: Kevin Hart is the sort of a-tad-above-replacement-level pitcher the Pirates already have 17 of.

I wonder whether the Cubs intend to set Gorzelanny on the path to LOOGYdom straight away?

Is there anybody left on the Pirates from Opening Day?

"As a Tiger fan who has moved to Pittsburgh, I find the Bucs endlessly entertaining and, somehow, they have turned me into a big fan."

Our power grows!

Welcome.

I wonder whether the Cubs intend to set Gorzelanny on the path to LOOGYdom straight away?

Seems like the logical path:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=gorzeto01&year=Career&t=p#plato

"16 walks, 9 strikeouts? I'm guessing "complete waste of time" is closer to the truth."

4K, 2BB today, so at least he's heading in the right direction.

I wonder whether the Cubs intend to set Gorzelanny on the path to LOOGYdom straight away?

Seems like the logical path:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=gorzeto01&year=Career&t=p#plato

"I also read on MLBTR that Grabow is going to be Type A; the Pirates probably wouldn't have offered him arb, but the Cubs can afford to, and that makes this a pretty big win for the Cubs."

I think this point is greatly overstated. How many Type A relievers of middling ability actually end up changing teams? Virtually none over the last three years, that I can see. If Cruz got jammed up after turning down arb, why wouldn't the same thing happen to Grabow?

And of course, Grabow's bone chips in his elbow make assumptions of forward value a risky proposition.

Is there anybody left on the Pirates from Opening Day?

Four of the nine opening day 2009 starters remain: Paul Maholm, Ryan Doumit, Andy LaRoche, and Brandon Moss. As someone noted in another thread, only one of the Pirates' nine Opening Day 2008 starters (Ryan Doumit) is still on the team.

I have to say... that's encouraging.

Vlad: You may well be right, especially since I'd forgotten about Grabow's elbow issues for the moment.

I wouldn't say Hart is a complete waste of time, though I do think he is better suited to coming out of the bullpen. I actually like this trade, assuming Grabow becomes the 2nd lefty and Marshall stays in the pen.

WEll, it looks like the Cubs still have a minor league franchise in Pittsburgh after all.

Prince Fielder is 10-20 against Grabow or something like that. He seems to hit a bullet off him every time up.

Just an observation

are andy laroche and doumit the only guys left from their opening day 25-man roster?

The Pirates have less than $11 million committed to payroll in 2010 and less than $12 million in 2011. One of the four players left with a multi-year contract is Pedro Alvarez, who wouldn't see Pittsburgh until late 2010 even if he was ready because of a clause in his contract.

The "restructuring" has to be complete by now.

Prince Fielder is 10-20 against Grabow or something like that. He seems to hit a bullet off him every time up.

9 for 16 with 2 doubles. I will laugh when Lou brings Grabow in specifically to get Fielder out.

Nasty Nate Posted: July 30, 2009 at 07:55 PM (#3274829)

are andy laroche and doumit the only guys left from their opening day 25-man roster?

- no, maholm is still there. probably one other guy too his name escapes me. they'd best get rid of doumit too or their fans will accuse them of having major league players on their roster

i think they've actually gone down to marlins level with that payroll

it's one way to make money, that is fer SHER

- as for grabow, he gets rightys out bettern leftys, so it will be funfunfun if lou doesn't check it out and uses him as a LOOGY

Just checked Grabow's career splits and they're kind of weird. His K/BB is WAY better against LHB (3.5 vs. 1.5), yet his OBP/SLG lines are very similar (.254/.346/.397 against RHB, .270/.332/.391 against LHB). Seems like he tends strongly to just pitch around RHB (or intentionally walk them), but it's not clear it's justified.

So it's not strictly true that he's better against RHB than LHB, or even that he's the same, but he definitely does not have the kind of platoon split that would suggest LOOGYdom.

Personally I think Grabow is lucky to be in the major leagues. He and Capps baffle me as to why anyone sees value here.

I'm happy to get anything for Hart - yeah, yeah - he had a couple nice weeks in 2007 out of the pen (and promptly turned into a pumpkin) and the top line results haven't been bad when he's filled in this year.

But - he doesn't strike people out, he walks too many people, he's 26, and I don't think I've ever seen him throw a pitch that has caused me to say "nice pitch". He's flotsam who strung together some luck at the right time. I don't know why I have this irrational dislike for him, but I have ever since the 2007 playoffs.

I'm not nearly so high on Ascanio as some - but all things considered, I'd rather have Gorzelanny. Pitching prospects who's major league career path look limited to the bullpen don't excite me either.

As others have noted, the big problem with Grabow is that he's not really a LOOGY so much as he is a perfectly serviceable reliever and I'm not so sure Lou pays attention enough anymore to recognize something like that.

All in all, I have a real hard time being unhappy with this trade. If the change of scenery helps Gorz bounce back at all, this could end up being a steal.

While I generally don't like trading FOR a reliever, getting Gorzelanny as a toss-in makes this a win with possibility to become a clear win.

Personally I think Grabow is lucky to be in the major leagues. He and Capps baffle me as to why anyone sees value here.

Capps throws strikes pretty consistently (well, did till this year). Any reliever with even average stuff that throws strikes as consistently as Capps has value. This season has been something of a disaster (helped along by a couple really, really bad outings) - but I think Capps is generally quite underrated. What's really weird is that Capps' GB/FB ratio is more tilted towards the GB than it's been his whole career, by a pretty good margin - yet his peripherals have gone into the toilet.

zonk:

The splits don't show it because Grabow doesn't pitch enough to emphasize the issue but the deep left field in PNC saves his &ss;. He hangs that cheesy slider, batter crushes it and it's an out or a double.

This guy has been faking it. Get ready for the Grabow You Loser serenade. Because he will be put in a spot sometime soon and that Wrigley left field won't be nearly as kind...............................

This is left-handed cannon-fodder for right-handed cannon fodder. A few of these guys (Gorzelanny, Ascanio, Harrison) might blossom into good major leaguers, but my guess is that all of them will be filling in the back ends of major league rosters, at best.

Hendry got his lefty middle reliever. Yawn.

as for grabow, he gets rightys out bettern leftys

I don't think that's true.

While I generally don't like trading FOR a reliever, getting Gorzelanny as a toss-in makes this a win with possibility to become a clear win.

Good luck. While I didn't particularly love giving up Gorz, I honestly think Ascanio and Hart (despite his K/BB ratio in 22 MLB innings) both have more upside than Grabow. Plus the Pirates take a flier on a possible 2B of the future in Harrison. I don't think the Pirates could have done better to be honest. Huntington has had a hell of a couple of days. God knows what it will mean long term but I am happy to finally see a Pirates GM blow things up and start over after the front office dicked around for years.

i dont mind trading hart, but i think ascanio was too much to give up. a bullpen of him guzman and marmol could have been pretty nice and cheap

"If the change of scenery helps Gorz bounce back at all, this could end up being a steal."

How is a change of scenery going to get him his old fastball back?

God, what a shitty trade. I didn't like it when I thought it was just Hart we were giving up. Adding Ascanio makes it atrocious.

Oh, and what haven and Vlad said about Gorzelanny. He's toast. Not that he was ever a particularly savory sort of bread to begin with.

Kevin Hart is an utter waste of time.

Disagree. He has occasional command issues, but he throws pretty hard, has nice movement and has pitched very well this year in both AAA and the majors.

Setting aside handedness, is Grabow even better than Ascanio right now?

He's probably more reliably adequate, for the moment. Ascanio has games where he's lights out (he's got nasty stuff), and others where he can't find the plate. What you'd expect from a flamethrower at his age, in other words. The Cubs were looking for a generic lefty reliever. They got one.

Gorzelanny has struck out 85 guys at Indy in 87 innings unless I read that wrong.

Also worth noting with Gorzelanny: He has a reputation as difficult to coach, both due to attitude problems and a general lack of intelligence (he was drafted out of a JC after failing out of Kansas).

As such, even if he is fixable, it may not be a particularly easy fix.

I see, reading more of the thread, that my Cub fan brethren aren't so down on the trade as I am.

Fair points made--I didn't realize Hart's peripherals in the Show were that bad (though I still maintain he has the stuff to be more of a strikeout pitcher than he's shown), and I'm probably overreacting to losing Ascanio, who I think's going to be good.

Nonetheless--I don't see Gorzelanny being useful as anything other than possibly a lefty longman, and that's not really worth trading a pitcher with upside for. And as others have said, if you put Marshall back in the rotation, it's kind of a waste of time even for THIS year. Marshall's been fantastic out of the pen, though he'll be fine as the 5th starter.

Kevin Hart, I think, is the first established mediocre major-leaguer the new Pirates regime has traded for! (the old regime was constantly getting their trading partners to throw in people like Jose Hernandez and Ty Wigginton and then releasing said players within a few months)

Ascanio, right-handed flamethrower with no control, you say? Has Craig Hansen already failed in his attempt to fill that role?

Ascanio has a name from an Eastwood spaghetti Western.

Hansen's hurt, isn't he? He's only thrown 6 innings all year.

Ascanio's control isn't that bad--he just seems prone to blowups. Even that's probably a small sample size reaction to a couple of his major league outings--at AAA, 18 walks in 51 IP isn't bad.

Oh, I thought Hansen had been in AAA all year like Gorzelanny. You're right, he's been on the 60-day DL since they called up McCutchen.

I think someone already said it but this is a "meh" kind of trade. It is a trade that might, but probably won't, come back and bite them a few years later. I'm not really crazy about it because they are simply trading for a LOOGY which is hard to get excited about. From here on out Grabow will get, what, 30 PA? Who really cares?

It would be great of Gorgonzola turned into a decent pitcher though.

I'm not really crazy about it because they are simply trading for a LOOGY which is hard to get excited about.

Yeah, but... Grabow isn't really a LOOGY, doesn't have anything like a LOOGY's split, and I don't see much evidence he's an upgrade over Ascanio in general. I guess there's intangible value in making everyone feel better because hey, we have two lefthanded pitchers in the bullpen now, but Ascanio + Harrison is a pretty steep price to pay for that, given that Grabow isn't very good.

[2]

I grew up in Evergreen as well. Not sure where Gorz went to grade school, but he went to Marist for high school (the prick)

Kevin Hart, I think, is the first established mediocre major-leaguer the new Pirates regime has traded for! (the old regime was constantly getting their trading partners to throw in people like Jose Hernandez and Ty Wigginton and then releasing said players within a few months)

I think Charlie Morton might have more major league innings than Hart... though perhaps Morton has enough of a minor league track record to warrant delaying the 'mediocre' tag.

I've become an ever increasingly TINSTAAPPy as I've aged. Honestly - I think I'm more worried about Harrison turning into something useful than I am about Ascanio. He's got a nice Brendan Harris type line (and yeah, I know Harris didn't turn into much, but he should have). Good speed, not awful plate awareness, gap power, plays 2B, 3B and a bit of OF.

I hate to turn all Joe Morganny --- Harveys' point about Grabow's stuff, I agree with -- but Grabow seems to "know how to pitch". I remember last August, when he was filling in for Capps, thinking his stuff looked like a LH Bob Howry (the late summer 2008 version)... This was right after that Milwaukee sweep - and after we couldn't touch Jeff Karstens (had to look that one up) - feeling sure we'd come back against Grabow.

I realize the mess Gorzelanny is now -- but a LH SP who put up an ERA+ of ~113/4 over his first 260 major league innings at 23 & 24, while maintaining a solid 2 to 1 K/BB ratio? To the best of my memory, he hasn't had any serious arm or shoulder issues, either. That's a picture perfect reclamation project.

First of all, Marshall in the rotation is a very real upgrade over Kevin Hart. With Lilly's injury, that's a big concern for Chicago and, despite his success in a microscopic sample size from the pen, Marshall shows almost zero platoon split for his career. Grabow shows a real platoon split in everything but ERA. The Cubs get a modest upgrade to the pitching staff based on these two moves.

Losing Ascanio is a bitter pill.

Tom N., SSRyan:
Ed Farmer was born in Evergreen Park, too. St. Rita's HS.

Yeah, and Jim Dwyer, who used to live down the block from me. My high school(Brother Rice) remains shut out of the bigs.