I think this article would be better written about Trevor Hoffman. In the last two weeks he's recorded a one-out save and a two-out save. In both instances the Padres had a three-run lead with only one runner on base..

Scioscia's track record regarding "roles" for players is pretty solid.

When the "role" was Gary Matthews Jr. as an everyday player, it took a season and a half of pathetic output to change the role Scioscia had assigned, so "Save Situation = Call Frankie immediately" is a pretty defensible role assignment in the grand scheme of Scioscia.

Torre did this for years, in games in which the 9th inning began with the Yankees leading but without a save being available. In most of these games, when the opposing team rallied in this situation, Torre brought Rivera in the moment there was a save situation, no sooner, no later.

Torre did this for years, in games in which the 9th inning began with the Yankees leading but without a save being available. In most of these games, when the opposing team rallied in this situation, Torre brought Rivera in the moment there was a save situation, no sooner, no later.

Ah yes, Joe "The Master of the Bullpen" Torre.

So K-Rod has a sock down his pants?

There’s been talk. Perhaps there was talk in the stands. There sure was talk in the press box and on talk radio.

This is TJ Simers-caliber muckraking!

Torre did this for years, in games in which the 9th inning began with the Yankees leading but without a save being available. In most of these games, when the opposing team rallied in this situation, Torre brought Rivera in the moment there was a save situation, no sooner, no later.

I'm pretty sure this is routinely done by every manager that has a well-established closer.

When did it become internet-hip to mock a team for bringing in their closer with men on base in the 9th inning? That seems like a really, really obvious time to bring in your closer, a mid-inning appearance that we were supposed to laud the "true firemen" for taking on.

3-run leads with no one on, yes, that's an oddly low leverage situation for your best relief pitcher. But with runners on? Some leverage indexes:

Taking the ball with a three-run lead, none out, none on in the bottom of the ninth, that's a 1.0 LI. If the leadoff hitter reaches first, the LI is now 2.0, the same as having a two-run lead with none on, none out.

If two batters reach with one out, and a three-run lead, the LI jumps to 2.9. These are obvious, gotta-be-braindead not to, situations to call on your best relief pitcher.

On those Hoffman saves. The one where he enters with one out and a runner on second, the LI is 1.3, which isn't all that terrible. The one with two outs and a runner on first is 0.5, yeah, pretty bad.

But look at those innings. In the first, the previous reliever had allowed two doubles and gotten only one out. Looks like he doesn't have his good stuff - get him out of the game sooner rather than later. In the second, the previous reliever had gotten two outs, then allowed a HR and a single. Again, it seems pretty reasonable for Black not to want that pitcher to continue in the game.

Torre brought Rivera in the moment there was a save situation, no sooner, no later.

Him and every other manager.

I remember one time watching John Gibbons's Jays in a road game that went to extra innings. Tie game on the road, say the 12th inning. Scott Downs, say, is warming in the pen, getting ready to come in. Then, the Jays take a one-run lead, and, with the leverage now lower, Downs sits down and the "closer" BJ Ryan starts to warm. Then the Jays score another run, and Ryan continues to warm. The Jays score a third time; Ryan continues to warm. The Jays score a fourth time, and Ryan sits down; someone else gets up.

I would have thought that once the guy had gotten warm you might as well bring him in instead of getting someone else ready, but no, now that it's a 4-run lead instead of a 3-run lead it is no longer OK to use your closer...

My favorite is bases loaded, two outs, 9th inning, 8-3 lead.
Save situation!

Incoming closer can give up a grand slam, a double off the fence, a couple of walks, and a liner caught by the 3B - and collect his SAVE for a job well done.

My favorite is bases loaded, two outs, 9th inning, 8-3 lead.
Save situation!

Incoming closer can give up a grand slam, a double off the fence, a couple of walks, and a liner caught by the 3B - and collect his SAVE for a job well done.

Whereas the managerial way to play it is to have that pitcher give up the grand slam and bring in the closer with the bases empty?

Sorry, I'm with MCoA on that one. Unless everyone wants to start apologizing to Grady Little about ragging him for sticking with Pedro back on the day...

I think this article would be better written about Trevor Hoffman. In the last two weeks he's recorded a one-out save and a two-out save. In both instances the Padres had a three-run lead with only one runner on base..

That first one was a one-pitch save with a 3-run lead. Sure, Bryan Corey had just given up a homer and a single, but the next three batters were Steve Pearce (who had been called up that day), Doug Mientkiewicz, and some sort of pinch-hitter, possibly Luis Rivas. I think he had a pretty good shot at getting one out before giving up three runs in that situation.

Of course, bringing in Trevor Hoffman made sense if they knew it would only take him a couple pitches to end the game. But crediting him with a "save" is ridiculous. And my distinct suspicion at the time was that the decision was made at the very millisecond it became a save situation. I think the Padres manager called for him while LaRoche was still on his way to first base, without evercoming out to the mound.

MCoA, do you have the LI handy for 2 out, 1st & 2nd, 4 run lead?

I don't blame Scioscia for save-padding here. As others have noted, he's not doing anything that other managers don't. The difference is the insane rate at which the Angels have found themselves in save situations. Despite all the saves, it's not like K-Rod's workload has been especially high either.

There have been seasons past where the Angels would go long stretches without any save situations, and there would be a need to get the closer some extra work in. Then, all of a sudden, they've got 4-5 straight days where the situation calls for the closer, and sometimes he won't be available and Shields steps in. This year the circumstances have conspired to give K-Rod pretty much all the save opps he can reasonably handle, and the Angels either lose or blow somebody out at just the right times where K-Rod could use a rest (amazing since they don't lose or blow people out very often). Just a weird season where everything breaks right for K-Rod's opportunities.

As for save padding, my brother perfected the technique in 1993 with this guy. Still couldn't break Thigpen's record though.

The LI was 0.4 when K-Rod came into the game. Not the best usage. Still, this wasn't a case of intentional padding, I didn't think. But, as I mentioned in the other thread, it was a cheap save that he didn't deserve, and justice was served by its being blown.

My favorite is bases loaded, two outs, 9th inning, 8-3 lead.
Save situation!

Incoming closer can give up a grand slam, a double off the fence, a couple of walks, and a liner caught by the 3B - and collect his SAVE for a job well done.

Sounds like Bob Stanley for the Red Sox back in the day.

In a Baseball Mogul franchise one time, with a great team (about 105-110 win quality), I would let position players pitch the 9th, and scramble up my defensive alignment, whenever I was well ahead in the 9th, so as to manufacture a save situation and then bring in the closer. Or I'd do it in the 8th or 7th in a real blowout. Didn't always work -- sometimes the position player would just retire the side -- but I got the closer 78 saves.

Didn't always work -- sometimes the position player would just retire the side -- but I got the closer 78 saves.

Sounds self-defeating in Baseball Mogul if you had any intention of re-signing the closer. In my experience, saves pump up the asking price quite a bit.

I'd just gotten done signing him for 6 more years, so I didn't much care.

"Whereas the managerial way to play it is to have that pitcher give up the grand slam and bring in the closer with the bases empty?"

If my closer needs work, I'd have him start the inning.
If he needs rest, I'd give him the day off.

I misread this as "paddling". It sounded a lot more interesting in my head.