First move? A second base platoon of Wally Backman and Kelvin Chapman.

Second move, young talent can expect to be promoted agressively.

At first glance, this looks typical of the KastNer Nationals - give someone (eg, Riggleman in this case) a job, then find a way to circumscribe or undercut their authority. Very 'inside the Beltway'.

After a bit more consideration, I'll decide to wait and see. Would Dave Johnson want to manage the 2011 Nationals at age 67? Maybe he just needs a job after his retirement fund took a hit.

Was he blackballed or something? Why did nobody give him a managerial job after the 2000 Dodgers (86 win campaign too)?

His Dodger teams were seen as under-achieving after spending a lot of money. But Johnson has found a way to antagonize four different organizations who have never brought him back. With the Mets he was seen as tolerant of a team filled with cokeheads who destroyed a plane after they won the NLCS. Marge Schott had some stupider reason-living in sin with a woman. With Baltimore there was some nonsense about donating player fines to his wife's charity.

~squeeble-squeeble~~Riggleroom just got a little tighter~~squeeble-squeeble~

Squeebles squabble but they don't fall down, because they're on Segways.

I remember once Topps called him "Dave Johnson" on his card. I was like what the f*ck???

"squeeble squeeble
slope
soft manure"

Outofcontextsmallsample

love you man

Those excuses sound exactly like excuses. He was a very successful manager who, despite that success, was a persona non grata pretty quickly in a few places. More likely there was personality conflicts and the powers that be didn't want him around but wanted to find a more official reason to point to besides "we can't stand the guy."

You know, now that I think about it, the Mets are kind of the last stop for a lot of managers. Who is the last guy to leave the Mets and get a job somewhere else as manager? Is it Davey? Willie, Bud, Bobby V, that's a pretty good variety of guys covering the gamut of experience and reputation, but the same fate for everyone.

(After checking bbref) Whoops, forgot Dallas Green, Torborg, and two years of Art Howe. But those names only reinforce the point, I think.

Hell, I just glanced at the rest of them. By that glance, it looks like in the entire 50 year history of the Mets, they have had 3 guys (EDIT: 4, Bamberger) who have managed after their Mets days: Torre, Torborg, and Davey. And Torborg (and Bamberger) didn't even last two full seasons anywhere else and then done.

You know, now that I think about it, the Mets are kind of the last stop for a lot of managers.

You forgot Gil Hodges.

Let the record show that the witness made the "drinky-drinky" motion.

Well, Bobby Valentine managed after his Mets days. Sure, it was halfway around the world, but he was a manager - and even won a title.

At first glance, this looks typical of the KastNer Nationals - give someone (eg, Riggleman in this case) a job, then find a way to circumscribe or undercut their authority. Very 'inside the Beltway'.

It's not even original. Johnson was hired to be an adviser for the Nats back in 2006, prompting some (brief) rumors that Frank would be pushed out for him. He apparently has no interest in managing again, or so Boswell says.

Well, Bobby Valentine managed after his Mets days. Sure, it was halfway around the world, but he was a manager - and even won a title.

Not satisfied with ruining dozens of my midnight-ish posts, Jaffe decides to poke the bear with the Bobby V stick.

Was Davey Johnson regarded as a manager who was a good judge of talent and who could pick out which guy could fill which role?

I ask this because that seemed to be one of the specific talents credited to Billy Martin in that profile of him.

With Baltimore there was some nonsense about donating player fines to his wife's charity.

IIRC, it was widely thought the real reason was that he didn't suck up to Peter Angelos enough.

Wes Westrum managed the Giants after he managed the Mets. But it seems Flushing an Elephant's Graveyard for managers.

I'm sure a lot of Johnson's problems are personality conflicts. The thing is twice he's been let go after taking a team into the playoffs (Cincinnati and Baltimore). The Mets and Dodgers you can sort of understand.

He was generally regarded as a good judge of talent. When he took over the Mets he benched 2B Brian Giles to play Wally Backman in a platoon, saying his on base percentage was too good to bench as Bamberger/Howard had (Torre earlier did play Backman). Howard Cosell went ballistic when he compared Backman to Eddie Stanky, which wasn't a half bad comparison. But he was way off the mark when he bragged to Mike and the Mad Dog on how he was going to turn Juan Samuel's career around. And I always wonder about the wisdom of having Gregg Jeffries learn to play second in the big leagues. But that was probably an organization mistake.

The two months before he got fired by the Mets, virtually every call to WFAN demanded he should be. I'm not saying I agreed with them, just saying. And Mets ownership is hyper over what their fans think.

Was Davey Johnson regarded as a manager who was a good judge of talent and who could pick out which guy could fill which role?

He was believed to be a good judge of talent who could make good roles for his players. His most famous incident was putting Howard Johnson at shortstop when Sid Fernandez pitched. HoJo had no busines playing short, but Fernandez was an extreme flyballer who fanned his share of batters - D at short meant less when he pitched than any other pitcher out there. And HoHo was a big offensive upgrade over the normal shortstop.

HoJo also showed Davey's ability to get the most out of his hitters. He came to the Mets after being driven out of Detroit by Sparky Anderson, but Davey trusted HoJo, installed him, and let him hit. HoJo flourished.

Davey Johnson is also well thought of around these parts because his

And my keyboard died!

Starting over from a working keyboard, here's the rest of my final thought:

Davey Johnson is also well thought of around these parts because his strategic tendencies mirror many widely shared sabermetric one. He wasn't one to bunt, and he absolutely detested intentional walks. In fact, according to my Tendicies Database his opposition to the IW was the most extreme tendency by any manager in MLB history. By that I don't merely mean that he opposed the IW more than any other manager (though he was the most anti-IW manager of them all), but his IW score veered further from average than any manager had in ANY category I churned through the Tendencies Database - and I churned through about 80 possible tendencies.

He also put Orosco/McDowell in RF/pitcher in the Reds game in which the main event was Ray Knight vs. Eric Davis.
12 full seasons, 11 over .500, 4 over .600. 5 1st place, 6 2nd place, 1 3rd place.

M.A. in mathematics.

I think he wasn't actively looking to manage the last few years, otherwise he would have been hired.

And my keyboard died!

Rats. I was hoping that this was some kind of extremely esoteric dick joke.

I remembered the whole Hojo at short for Sid Fernandez's starts but I'd totally forgotten his antipathy toward the bunt and the IBB. Thanks Dag Nabbit.

Johnson had an antipathy to playing outfielders too shallow. Used to get criticized for it and for saying it was coach Bill Robinson's decision. I don't know if it was a wise decision to play deep but why the antipathy towards having a former outfielder determine where outfielders play?
Besides the Orosco/McDowell game (caused by players ejected in a fight), he had one game in April 1984 when he used Rusty Staub in the outfield. Don't believe the b-ref listing of Le Grand Orange at 200 pounds, by the time he was 41 he was fat and used as a pinch hitter exclusively. The box score for the game against the Pirates shows him playing right but Davey alternated Staub left/right field depending on the hitter. When Rick Rhoden hit an opposite field fly ball to Staub, he chugged and chugged and chugged and caught the flyball.

Tendicies Database

What is a dicy, and is it better to have ten of them in your database than, say, five?

HoJo also showed Davey's ability to get the most out of his hitters.

Indeed. I'd put Elster and Sasser in that group, too.

(EDIT) Okay, before I actually posted this, but I have to leave it in. Jesus Christ, I don't know where my perception of Elster got warped, but I thought of him as a dandy little hitting shortstop before shortstops hit much at all. Instead, he ####### sucked. Sasser was a better example than I had thought even, so there's some offset, but man.

Elster hit a bunch of bombs many years later with the Rangers once. He never hit before that.

Right, and of course I remember that year, but I definitely had that perception before his arrival. Also, you know what his OPS+ was that year, when he hit 24 HRs? 90.

I always thought Davey's biggest problem in his post-Mets career was the people he chose to work for: Schott, Angelos and Sheriff-era Dodgers. I thought he'd have been better off finding a low-profile ownership group/GM to work where he wasn't so likely to have personality conflicts.

You know, now that I think about it, the Mets are kind of the last stop for a lot of managers. Who is the last guy to leave the Mets and get a job somewhere else as manager?

(After checking bbref) Whoops, forgot Dallas Green, Torborg, and two years of Art Howe. But those names only reinforce the point, I think.

Torre?

Torre was pre-Davey.

Torre was pre-Davey.

This is what happens when a.) you get old and b.) a season so horrifying happens that it screws with your head.

Hell, I just glanced at the rest of them. By that glance, it looks like in the entire 50 year history of the Mets, they have had 3 guys (EDIT: 4, Bamberger) who have managed after their Mets days: Torre, Torborg, and Davey.

Yogi Berra, too.

I'd bet even money Randolph gets another gig at some point.

Randolph could get Milwaukee. Selig likes him and I assume he still has influence in the organization.

How could I forget Yogi managed the Yankees?

When Elster played/partied with the Mets, writers would drool over how his home runs were often in "big spots" and how he would hit better with men on base.

One thing that really hurt Johnson in his last two months was he kept trying to use Mike Marshall at first, acquired in the off season. Bud Harrelson did at first too and after Marshall was finally hurt for good two weeks into Harrelson's reign, he used Dave Magadan, who caught fire, as did the team. But Mets ownership had Johnson in its sights: they had fired third base coach Perlozzo and hitting instructor Robinson over the winter.

Johnson might have had the Yankee job in 1996 after Steinbrenner pushed Showalter out. But Torre came cheaper and George was very concerned with salary in that 15 minute period.

Selig has no influence on the Brewers decisions beyond what may be impacted from a commissioner's office.

I forgot that Yogi came back to manage again for that (basically) one year. So here's the count up to now:

Westrum - 1.5 seasons after
Yogi - 1 season
Torborg - 2 seasons
Bamberger - 2 seasons

and then Torre and Davey.

So definitely my first statement was overdone. Yet still, let's take out Torre for a second. Davey has 7 years after, counting full seasons for both strike years. So the sum total of all post-Met managing aside Torre is 13.5 seasons for 14 managers (not counting Manuel, Torre, Cubbage, Parker, or McMillan.) But the guys coming in have generally been experienced.



(The above totals also exclude Manuel.)

I did my team just to give a small check on the numbers:



** - Eddie was hired elsewhere, just didn't last a full season.

When Elster played/partied with the Mets, writers would drool over how his home runs were often in "big spots" and how he would hit better with men on base.

He couldn't have hit much worse...Elster played 3.5 seasons with the Mets, excepting garbage time in 3 other seasons. Yearly OPS+ totals: 75, 87, 74, 89. Highest raw OPS was .669. And it's not like OPS underrates him offensively, he stole 10 bases in those years and got caught 6 times, and he posted two .280 OBPs, one .270, and the creme de la creme is .318. Just 1704 blackhole PAs: .224/.289/.346, 82 OPS+.

Oh, and he somehow managed to actually hit worse. Career 2 outs/RISP tOPS+ is 93. Late & Close, though...he could end up in the Hague answering for those numbers. Take the crap above and kick it down to the tune of a *73* tOPS+. .195/.272/.303 in 510 ABs. Good. God.

[36] Wow, I totally blotted out the Mike Marshall experiment at 1B. I remember sitting at Shea hearing people boo Marshall, saying "Go back to L.A. ... and take Elster with you."

At first glance, this looks typical of the KastNer Nationals - give someone (eg, Riggleman in this case) a job, then find a way to circumscribe or undercut their authority. Very 'inside the Beltway'.

If you want find evidence of undermining, Riggleman's bench coach is former Seattle manager John McLaren. Riggleman served as McLaren's bench coach in Seattle before Mclaren was fired and Riggleman took over. This looks more like those cultures where a friend kills a dishonored man.

Something's missing from your table in 39, Jeff. Bobby V had seven years with the Mets after he left Texas.

Johnson had health problems that kept him from managing. I can't find the specifics right now, but I know one element was undiagnosed appendicitis.

As a player, he was also known as Dave. I didn't noticed he became Davey until after he became a manager.

Tom, that's only if you count 1996 for him. I don't. I counted it for Green, which I think is pretty defensible.

Tom, that's only if you count 1996 for him. I don't. I counted it for Green, which I think is pretty defensible.

Isn't your table in 39 the list of Texas Rangers managers and where they worked before and after? How would Bobby V's years with the Mets not be included in the after-Texas total?

Oh oh oh. Yes, I am stupid.

I think he wasn't actively looking to manage the last few years

Johnson has been managing the national team and the Olympic Team, which he might have found more congenial than the tsouris associated with MLB.

#7 He was also "Dave Johnson" on his 1969-71 Strat cards. Not sure if they ever changed to Davey.

I remember once Topps called him "Dave Johnson" on his card. I was like what the f*ck???

He was always Dave on the cards. So was Davey Lopes, always "Dave." What grownup calls themselves Davey anyway. It's like Timmy or Jeffy. If ya wanna go that way, go with D-A-V-Y, without the E. Thatway you can be a seafaring legend or a 1960s maraca player.

Elster had a reputation then as a superlative fielder. Any truth to that?

When Elster played/partied with the Mets, writers would drool over how his home runs were often in "big spots" and how he would hit better with men on base.

I saw Elster hit a game-winning grand slam once. Sure, it was for AA Albany, but still.

Johnson clearly took his managing approach (though not his personal behavior) from Earl Weaver. I rank him as the#1 manager in Mets history