Had he stayed on the field consistently, he would have been celebrated as the home run king, eclipsing Hank Aaron

Are you sure about that? How many HR does he hit in 453 games? And is it reasonable to assume he plays in every single one of them regardless of how healthy he is? I say he is stuck at 675ish. Not a lock at all.

Had he stayed on the field consistently, he would have been celebrated as the home run king, eclipsing Hank Aaron with class instead of joylessness.

Despite the smile and the backwards cap and the TV ads, I've always detected a joyless vibe coming from Griffey. Just me?

And if Griffey weren't a media pet, couldn't his injury time just as easily be spun as a possible side effect of PED use? (See: Giambi's parasite, Bonds' knees, etc.)

As for the speculative math above, if Griffey could've hit another 163 home runs in the 453 games he's missed, he should already have 850+ home runs in the 2,378 games he has played.

I never fail to be amused by the media's ability to tells us exactly who has and who has not used steroids.

Remember, he hit 56 twice in the 1990s.

which...never would have happened in the 1960s.

Even Junior can't escape the vampiric shadow of steroids. I weep for America.

games Griffey has missed, mostly due to aches and pains

Just what I can remember off the top of my head: multiple hamstring tears, a dislocated shoulder, a dislocated kneecap/patellar tendon tear and a torn peroneal tendon. Aches and pains?

Damn straight. Not like that tosser Bonds.

Please provide evidence that Griffey didn't use. If you object to the prospect of proving the negative, please tell us your opinion of Sammy Sosa, Ivan Rodriguez, and others who have not tested positive.

He's safe from the Google search. Type in his name, and there are no links to BALCO, George Mitchell or Jose Canseco. Plenty of other sluggers have not gone back-alley pharmacy, but none as accomplished as Griffey.

There aren't even good rumors about Junior.

Really? What about the story of Bonds and Jr. discussing "things" over dinner one offseason? Or do we only believe the rumors about the evil Bonds, and not about the saintly Griffey?

Are you sure about that? How many HR does he hit in 453 games? And is it reasonable to assume he plays in every single one of them regardless of how healthy he is? I say he is stuck at 675ish. Not a lock at all.

If, from '01-06, Jr. averages the 623 PA he did last year (well below his "healthy" average), and hits HRs at the same rate (again, well below his previous average), he's at 665. If he hits HRs at the same rate each year during the missed time as during the rest of the season, he's at 670; if you give him the 650 PAs that he's averaged in non-injury, non-strike years, he's up to 679. Plus, none of this adds any credit for '95; add that in, and he may have "missed" 104 HRs. If he plays in all of his "missed" games, (averaging the 720 PA he had in his fullest season), he's at 782. So he'd have the record, but he wouldn't be anywhere near 850.

But, that's all a stupid exercise in my opinion. Bonds only played 130 games in his last MVP season; look at the amount of time Mantle missed in the prime of his career. Injuries are part of the whole package - other than Gehrig and Ripkin, everyone gets hurt and misses time.

Griffey will go down in history for what he is - a great player who might have been inner-circle if not for injuries. Not a bad reputation to have at all.

flimsy alibi

Flimsy alibi?

I think doing whatever one can to stay on the field and contribute to the team is a pretty strong reason to do any number of things.

Griffey stands tall

Ouch! Knee injury, and he collapses to the floor!

Despite the smile and the backwards cap and the TV ads, I've always detected a joyless vibe coming from Griffey.

In Seattle, the joy seemed very legit. In Cincy, not so much. I dunno if that was the town, the injuries, the mediocre team, or what.

Injuries are part of the whole package - other than Gehrig and Ripkin, everyone gets hurt and misses time.

Almost everyone misses a few games a year. Not everyone misses a huge chunk of every season in their early 30's, especially after being relatively durable in their 20's. Bonds didn't and Aaron didn't and Mays didn't and Robinson didn't and Schmidt didn't and so on. That's not to say that its unheard of - Mantle, Foxx, etc. But Griffey has had more of his share of injuries in his 30's than what could have been reasonably expected. I think its kind of fun to think what Griffey would have done if he had been reasonably healthy in his early 30's - kind of like imagining what Ted Williams would have done without the wars.

Just what I can remember off the top of my head: multiple hamstring tears, a dislocated shoulder, a dislocated kneecap/patellar tendon tear and a torn peroneal tendon. Aches and pains?

They weren't that painful to the writer.

Some of the cool things you can do with Baseball reference. Go look at Griffey's list of comparable players through age 29, then see how many games that group played from that point to the end of their careers. The 7 retired players had an average of 1005 games left. Griffey is at 843, so he'll meet that if he plays half a season in 2008 and comes back for half of 2009.

Griffey isn't unlucky, he's the average. It's guys like Mays and Aaron with their perfect health who were outliers.

Or do we only believe the rumors about the evil Bonds, and not about the saintly Griffey?

I think we're a little beyond the rumor stage with Bonds, TDF.

There is a well-reported story out there about Jr., and despite the author's contention, it's directly related to BALCO. My point is that some (like Jr) get a free pass on any suspicion, despite the stories, while others (like Bonds, or moreso Sosa) will have every rumor treated as iron-clad proof.

Of all of the things to dislike about the steroids witchhunts, I think that may be the worst. More than the waste of taxpayer's money and Congress's time; more than the SHOCK and HORROR that PRO ATHLETES CHEATED!!!; more than MLB and the MLBPA looking the other way while players were breaking the law simply because there was money to be made. The witchhuntingest part of the whole thing is that the media is deciding who's guilty or innocent based simply on who they like the best (and I doubt the author even knows Bonds or Griffey - he, like "everyone", "knows" Bonds is a lying jerk and Griffey is the All-American boy).

Really? What about the story of Bonds and Jr. discussing "things" over dinner one offseason? Or do we only believe the rumors about the evil Bonds, and not about the saintly Griffey?

Well, that conversation was kind of a one-sided affair, with Bonds telling Griffey he was considering juicing in response to McGwire and Sammy's HR exploits. There's no evidence of Griffey reciprocating.*

* Of course, the entire years-old conversation was delivered, verbatim, by an ethically deficient reporter who wasn't actually there, so Bonds' admission to Junior is more than a little suspect.

Even if you're just trying to make a point, it seems to me in poor taste to throw Griffey in with the cheaters on some rumor. Just the wording "There is a well-reported story out there about Jr., and despite the author's contention, it's directly related to BALCO." is vague enough to resemble a political hack job.

If you've got a story with some real dirt on Griffey, provide a link. Otherwise, I will consider Griffey among the pure, along with Frank Thomas and Sammy Sosa, and not part of the Bonds/Canseco clan.

Griffey is already 81st on the all-time list of games played. With a season of anything less than disastrous health this year, he'll reach the top 50 in games played (he's 120 games away). He's played in more games than Jimmie Foxx or Ted Williams or Rogers Hornsby or Willie Stargell or Charlie Gehringer, and he's going to pass a lot more Hall of Famers (like Mathews, Mantle and Schmidt) this year.

Even if you're just trying to make a point, it seems to me in poor taste to throw Griffey in with the cheaters on some rumor

That's the point - the author said there isn't a rumor, yet there is - one specifically linked to BALCO (through Bonds), by the reporter who's being praised far and wide by "outing" Bonds and other BALCO clients.

I will consider Griffey among the pure, along with Frank Thomas and Sammy Sosa, and not part of the Bonds/Canseco clan.

If, in fact, the first group is "pure", it's only because they thought the potential downside outweighed the risks in this particular case. Every athlete will do whatever they think they can get away with to win. Every single one.

The witchhuntingest part of the whole thing is that the media is deciding who's guilty or innocent based simply on who they like the best

So the Balco investigation had nothing to do with Fainaru-Wada and Williams writing that book, huh?

My understanding is it started when Bonds pissed off Novitski. Or are you saying that the federal investigation was precipitated by a book?

No there isn't, as AROM's description of the incident bears out. You're conflating having one's name in a story and being rumored to have considered doing steroids as being equivalent. They aren't, and it should obvious to you why they aren't.

From Miriam-Webster Online:

1: talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth

"Bonds and Griffey talked about steroids at dinner", widely reported, with no knowledge of the source, sounds like a rumor to me.

And if Griffey weren't a media pet, couldn't his injury time just as easily be spun as a possible side effect of PED use? (See: Giambi's parasite, Bonds' knees, etc.)

Steroids/hGh are blamed either for injuries or lack of injuries, depending on whether the media likes you or not.

Here's a link.

Game of Shadows reports that over dinner, after the 1998 season, Bonds told Griffey he planned to start using steroids because he was tired of Sosa and McGwire getting all the attention.

It does not rumor that Griffey himself planned to use, or ever used steroids himself.

Griffey claims not to remember such a conversation, though he's not outright denying it.

So I stand by my assessment that this factually worded but vague claim: "There is a well-reported story out there about Jr., and despite the author's contention, it's directly related to BALCO."
is nonetheless misleading. But it's an election year, so I'm sure there are people who could put your talents to good use.

I have Game of Shadows but haven't read much of it. I'll have to read the chapter. From the article I'm not sure if other people were dining with Bonds and Griffey, or who provided the authors with a quote from Bonds.

AROM,

I haven't read Game of Shadows so I don't know if there's any dinner conversation in that book, but I'm pretty sure (and the link confirms) that Griffey-Bonds discusssion is from Jeff Pearlman's literary masterpiece, "Love Me, Hate Me: Barry Bonds and the Making of an Antihero."

If, in fact, the first group is "pure", it's only because they thought the potential downside outweighed the risks in this particular case. Every athlete will do whatever they think they can get away with to win. Every single one.

In recent days we've seen the incoherence of liberal ideology in stark relief. Only a liberal could say something so profoundly unimaginative and profoundly stupid at the same time.

It's right there with Ray's argument that since all athletes have the same opportunity to cheat, they are all equal, and hence it isn't really cheating, in the other thread. The difference is that Ray's argument was liberalism at it's most honest while the above is liberalism at its most unselfconcious.

It does not rumor that Griffey himself planned to use, or ever used steroids himself.

Well, Canseco telling Clemens about his own use is somehow evidence that Clemens used, so...

In recent days we've seen the incoherence of liberal ideology in stark relief. Only a liberal could say something so profoundly unimaginative and profoundly stupid at the same time.

Good Morning, sir, BTF Surveys here. In a recent thread here at BTF, there was a complaint about the leftist bias in BTF politics. In the interests of accountability, balance and fairness, we would like you to ask you to take a moment to fill out a brief on-line form to indicate where you see yourself on the American political spectrum. If interested, please go to:

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#28, My bad. I checked the book out over lunch and found that section. There were 3 other guys having dinner with Bonds and Junior, a rep from a athletic apparel company and two people described as "associates". Unnamed, associates of which player or in what capacity is not stated. Could be Greg Anderson for all we know. So Pearlman must have got the story from one of those three. Anyway, Griffey's reaction to Bonds' statement was silence.

It's right there with Ray's argument that since all athletes have the same opportunity to cheat, they are all equal, and hence it isn't really cheating, in the other thread.

Well, just to clarify, my point was not "hence it isn't really cheating"; in fact, I was accepting that using steroids _was_ "cheating" for the sake of the argument. My point was that the playing field was level, since every player had the same opportunities. I wrote:

And all of this ignores the fact that all of the players had exactly the same opportunities to "cheat" that anyone else had. In that sense they are on a level playing field, and always have been.

http://www. bolshevikbombthrowerssecretlydominatebtf.com

Is that even legal?

Is that even legal?

Only a conservative could post a joke that is so profoundly unimaginative and so profoundly stupid at the same time.

/inane BTF humor

Regarding Griffey's "joyless" demeanor:

I've never met him but do some business with some folks who know him very well. They describe him as very low key, even shy, & very family oriented. They say he's grown moreso as he's aged.

In addition to that, I'd guess that the media BS about his injuries has worn on him. I would certainly tire of being labled a fragile slacker when I was busting my ass on the field.