Hey, didn't they make a movie about this?

BARRY BONDS FRAMED ROGER CLEMENS

oops double post

but CONTINUED OUTRAGE

Jerry's right: The public doesn't know. Due in no small part to the collective efforts of sportswriters who have failed us for decades on the PED issue.

We "truly don't know" about most of the people in the Mitchell Report. There were indeed "stoolies" behind many of the reports. If these cases were subjected to an adversarial "trial" based on the evidence (including payments to suppliers, notes by Balco, etc.), credibility of witnesses, and so on, my guess is that many of the cases would end up with a Scotch Verdict: "guilt not proved."

On the other hand to say that Roger was "framed" is going way overboard.

Framed?! That Detroit News guy, like a lot of other writers and fans, would have been content to pin the whole steroid problem on Barry Bonds. Andy Pettitte has already confirmed Brian McNamee's statements from the Mitchell Report. If you're going to jail, why would someone start making up stuff? Was he being waterboarded? By the way, waterboarding is not torture. It's actually similar to surfing.

Clemens has achieved all his success through "hard work".

If the needle does not fit, you must acquit.

By the way, waterboarding is not torture.

Steroid articles are becoming torture. Especially the sanctimonious ones (as if there are ever any other kind).

Framed is a stretch. It almost implies conspiracy.

I see it one of two ways.

A) McNamee lied hoping to get the IRS Gorilla off him and his families back.
He was pressured.

The IRS probably had their noses into everything. Heck his in-laws grocery club card probably got ran thru the computer, just trying to make sure everything was on the up and up.

Then, during one of the federal governments marathon interrogation sessions, McNamee named Clemens hoping to get the IRS off his ass. Thats all.

He gave them what he thought they wanted to hear. a name. The newspapers had already tied Mac to Rocket and the juice, and nobody was refuting it. certainly not the government.

so McNamee gave them what he thought they already had, hoping they would just go away.

Now he has to stick to his story, doesn't he.


the other option is ..
B) Roger is lying.


call me crazy but i am in Rogers camp, for many, many reasons.

If he had to give up a name, why would he pick a fake one? He'd go to jail if he picked a fake name.

There's no incentive for the rapist drug dealer here to lie, because the penalty for lying is way greater.

Maybe the only player McNamee knew used was Pettitte, but he figured Clemens was probably using. Maybe Pettitte told him that Clemens suggested it. I've certainly suggested that people try things I haven't tried myself.

wok, he gave them Rocket, because that was the name the were pressuring him over.

He said so in his interview last year.

McNamee just didn't "give" the rocket, he described what he injected clemens with in detail, when, where, etc. Not to mention that he went out of his way to say clemens didn't like HGH because of a belly button shot? Why the hell would McNamee say that? Why make up this half of season stuff with clemens, why not just say clemens used the full season?

If McNamee is a liar ( and while he may be a liar in general, I do believe every word about clemens and steroids ), he sure likes to lie about weird things. Again, why the HECK would he even care to mention about clemens not liking a belly button shot? He also says something about clemens showing him a steroid back in 98, in which he advised him not to use, and they gave it to canseco, again, why say crap like that? Why lie about something like that? Why not just say clemens used the steroid over and over again? The only answer I can think of is because it's the truth...

Bellybutton shots ..

interesting.
That could be the first time I have heard that HGH had to be injected into the belly button.

They use insulin needles. tiny needles. and they inject it in the belly or the thigh. not the belly button.

Just a quick search of the Mitchell report. 409 pages of people doing HGH, and this McNamee line is the only mention of a belly button shot.
Here is all the information on HGH you'll ever need to know, and no where does it mention you have to shoot HGH into the 'bellybutton."
Here is a step by step how to on HGH, and no belly button.

This is pure nonsense.

it is a sign the dude, McNamee, is in panic mode, under pressure.

A belly button shot?

Right...so McNamee in "panic mode" just decides to make up a lie about clemens not liking a HGH belly button shot...After all, a lie such as "Clemens loved using HGH" wouldn't have sounded better...McNamee just felt like telling Mitchell Clemens didnt like HGH. Makes perfect sense to me.

Whatever you say buddy.

wok, he gave them Rocket, because that was the name the were pressuring him over.

He said so in his interview last year.

As BL pointed out in the previous thread where this was raised, he didn't actually say that. McNamee did say that "they" were pressuring him to name Clemens, but he also said something like he hadn't talked to the government, so it's not clear what he meant.

//////

If he had to give up a name, why would he pick a fake one? He'd go to jail if he picked a fake name.

There's no incentive for the rapist drug dealer here to lie, because the penalty for lying is way greater.

There's no real world penalty for him lying. As to why he'd pick a fake name, the obvious reason would be because he didn't have a (or the) real name they wanted.

/////

Right...so McNamee in "panic mode" just decides to make up a lie about clemens not liking a HGH belly button shot...After all, a lie such as "Clemens loved using HGH" wouldn't have sounded better...McNamee just felt like telling Mitchell Clemens didnt like HGH. Makes perfect sense to me.

Again I repeat: it's reasonable to ask what someone's motive to lie is, but the idea that someone must be telling truth because you don't understand what his reasons for lying are is flawed. The fact that you don't understand McNamee's actions doesn't mean that he didn't have his reasons -- or that he wasn't behaving irrationally.

In any case, GR is absolutely right; HGH doesn't get injected into the belly button. The thigh is normal. So you can't hang your argument that he must be telling the truth on the grounds that it wouldn't make sense for him to invent this detail, because the detail itself doesn't make sense.

As for inventing details, that's what people do when they lie. That doesn't mean he is lying, but the fact that he gave weird details doesn't prove he's telling the truth, either. Have you ever prepped a witness? Do you know how often you have to tell them not to embellish? Cross-examined one, in a deposition or trial? Of course, sometimes you get lucky and you have documentary evidence that he's lying -- but many times, you just give them enough rope, and they contradict themselves. People hate to say that they don't know the answer, and so they like to elaborate to 'prove' that they do. The problem is, unless you plan it out carefully in advance, it's hard to tell a consistent, false story. (Which is why cross-examination is so important; one can prepare and tell a story once, but one can't prepare for everything that a good opposing lawyer will ask, in the order he will ask it.)

I wouldn't say Gr is "absolutely right"...I've heard and read that HGH can be injected anywhere on the body.

As BL pointed out in the previous thread where this was raised, he didn't actually say that. McNamee did say that "they" were pressuring him to name Clemens, but he also said something like he hadn't talked to the government, so it's not clear what he meant.

I will grant you he was vague, but there are only so many "They's" in play here.

Mitchell and the Feds.
maybe the media.

Come to think about it. I can't believe Mitchell even put that in his report.
What kind of investigation doesn't question that? Blue Ribbon or Federal. It's odd.

Here we have a witch, apparently not afraid of the steroid needle, but he doesn't like the "belly button shot" for hgh, a shot actually administered in the thigh by a tiny needle.

Nothing about that is logical, and I can't believe it wasn't questioned by investigators. Mitchell went into what makes up a HGH kit and how the trainers got it and everything.

Certainly Novistky knew the "Belly Button shot" was a line of crap. He was in the room during the questioning. He has been chasing this stuff for 5 years now. He knew it was a crock of chit.


This is the worst blue ribbon panel ever. ever!

This thing is 409 pages full of errors, and it all begins by the third paragraph ..

This report, the product of an intensive investigation

no.

no it wasn't.

Again, HGH can be administered anywhere on the body.

HGH can be administered anywhere on the body.

which means the statement, "he didn't use, cus he didn't like the belly button shot" is hogwash.

Or it could be the truth.

As BL pointed out in the previous thread where this was raised, he didn't actually say that. McNamee did say that "they" were pressuring him to name Clemens, but he also said something like he hadn't talked to the government, so it's not clear what he meant.

McNamee also says in the MR that he was lying to the media last year about all this. He's clearly lying at some point, and I find the media lie more plausible. YMMV.

In any case, GR is absolutely right; HGH doesn't get injected into the belly button. The thigh is normal. So you can't hang your argument that he must be telling the truth on the grounds that it wouldn't make sense for him to invent this detail, because the detail itself doesn't make sense.

Is there anything in the MR that suggests McNamee knows anything about how to administer this stuff? According to his testimony, at the start he just did what Clemens told him to do; somewhere along the line he sought out Jose Canseco for advice about unfamiliar stuff. From reading the MR I got the impression that McNamee didn't really know what he was doing, and from his background I'd be surprised if he did. Not that that means he's telling the truth, but it's a plausible explanation for him not sounding like he knows anything useful about how to administer HGH.

Or it could be the truth.

No, actually, it can't be. "He didn't use, because he didn't like the belly button shot" can't be true if a "belly button shot" isn't a condition of use. And if he were actually getting steroid injections elsewhere, then he obviously didn't have an objection to injections elsewhere.

McNamee also says in the MR that he was lying to the media last year about all this. He's clearly lying at some point, and I find the media lie more plausible. YMMV.

It's plausible, but as I said, it doesn't do wonders for his credibility overall.

Is there anything in the MR that suggests McNamee knows anything about how to administer this stuff? According to his testimony, at the start he just did what Clemens told him to do; somewhere along the line he sought out Jose Canseco for advice about unfamiliar stuff. From reading the MR I got the impression that McNamee didn't really know what he was doing, and from his background I'd be surprised if he did. Not that that means he's telling the truth, but it's a plausible explanation for him not sounding like he knows anything useful about how to administer HGH.

I don't think any of these guys have too many years of medical school, but if they didn't know how to use it, they'd likely be doing it based on gossip within the steroid community, right? Which you'd expect to find on the internet. (You can find a ton of instructions, real or spurious, about how to use all sorts of illicit drugs, including steroids and HGH, by googling.) But there's nothing telling people to inject in the belly button; indeed, various sites explicitly tell people to avoid the navel.