TSIA.

Bitter much, Greg?

so, what do we think the excuses are going to be? I'll go with ...

"ARod had better talent around him, ergo Ordonez was more VALUABLE"

or

"Take a gander at that batting average!!!11one!!"

They needed to see Magglio every day to really appreciate him?

And people complained about John Lackey getting a Cy Young vote.

That might be a better headlne than the actual one.

It's only slightly mitigating, but at least the 2 Tiger-centric scribes voted A-Rod 2nd.

Maybe Maggs has a contract clause that he gets a million dollars if he receives first place MVP votes.

possible Detroit argument.?????

".....if ARod is so valuable why was he batting eighth when the Yankees played here in the playoffs?"

If you don't see Magglio Ordonez play every day, you just can't understand how valuable he is to this team!

Wait...

Ordonez was the only candidate who represented a real alternative to tweedle dee and tweedle dum, who are beholden to corporate interests.

Hmm, Mr. Grushenko thought of that first, but his 5-post advantage can't outweigh my celebrity. Point, Kay.

Carlos Pena got hosed. I mean, I fully expected him to get hosed, but he deserved to finish third.

Glorious hair > blue lips

I would have expected Posada to finish higher than wherever he finished.

Is that even legal?

Carlos Pena got hosed. I mean, I fully expected him to get hosed, but he deserved to finish third.

I had him 7th.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of A-Rod's at all, but I'm sorry, this was really bush...

I would have expected Posada to finish higher than wherever he finished.

That'd be sixth place, with three voters leaving him off the 10-man ballot entirely.

is there a process to strip these people of their votes?
what if they had voted for pudge rodriguez, still nothing could be done about this?

I'd say one of the worst things is Lowell finishing 5th. He might have deserved top 10, but Pena/Ichiro/Posada/Victor Martinez/Granderson all should be above him.

I wonder who gave JJ Putz a 4th-place vote. A writer who highly values WPA? Or a Seattle Homer? I wonder which is more likely...

......1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Points
Arod 26 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 328
Mags 2 22 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 258
Vlad 0 3 10 9 3 3 0 0 0 0 203
Papi 0 1 11 6 3 0 3 2 1 0 177
Lowel 0 0 1 6 2 7 4 3 2 0 126
Jorge 0 0 0 3 4 6 6 3 1 2 112
Vmart 0 0 0 1 7 5 4 2 3 1 103
Ichir 0 0 0 1 6 2 5 3 3 1 89
CPena 0 0 2 0 0 2 2 3 8 5 64
CGran 0 0 0 1 2 1 0 5 1 10 51
Jeter 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 17
Grady 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 3 1 15
Putz. 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 12
CCSab 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 0 11
Torii 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 5
Ocab. 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 2 5
Abreu 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 4
Lacky 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 4
Polan 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 4
JMorn 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 3
Chone 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 3
JoshB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 2
Faust 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1
Hurt. 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1

The White Sox just acquired the 16th most valuable player in the AL.

A-Rod had a great year, but to act like he had some kind of god-given right to a unanimous selection is silly.
It's embarrassing that the votes came from the Tiger writers, but whatever. Maggs had a great season. Pena would have been fifth on my ballot.

I like some of the lower ballot "consensuses". Ten 10th-place votes for Granderson. Eight 9th-place votes for Pena.

28 voters, right? So three people didn't think Posada was one of the 10 most valuable players in the AL? Apparently .970 OPS catchers grow on trees, or something.

Some really odd votes this year. Lowell third? Abreu 7th? Morneau 8th?

The 2nd place vote for Ortiz seems a little off, too, given Ordonez's year and the fact that he played some defense.

28 voters, right? So three people didn't think Posada was one of the 10 most valuable players in the AL? Apparently .970 OPS catchers grow on trees, or something.

I think they rightly concluded that Posada's numbers were inflated by being in the presence of Derek Jeter.

Also, I know picking on random down-ballot votes is shooting fish in a barrel, but a 7th-place vote for Abreu? Really?

Wow, Pena and Granderson got screwed, just shows a lot of it is an age / name recognition thing.

Pena loses points for not feeling like playing this well three years ago.

Faust 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1

looks like that deal with the devil didn't pay off

So, which is worse: two Detroit guys picking Mags this year or the two Chicago writers voting for Sammy Sosa in 2001? Sosa had a better season in 2001 than Mags had this year, but, on the other hand, Barry Bonds had the best offensive season in major-league history that year. I think I'd have to say the Chicago guys were worse.

The 2nd place vote for Ortiz seems a little off, too, given Ordonez's year and the fact that he played some defense.

Ortiz had better hitting stats and played for a playoff team - not that hard to imagine why people voted that way. I find it a little odder that someone left Ortiz off the ballot, but I suppose inevitable given that (in my extreme opinion) people are overvaluing defense these days and inappropriately penalizing DHs.

As for Pena - I can imagine people arguing that you need to be the best hitter in the league to be eligible for MVP discussion if you play for that bad a team.

On the other hand, anyone who put Lowell ahead of Posada shouldn't be allowed to vote.

That Granderson thing is bizarre. Like everyone had finished their ballots, did one final stats scan, and realized Holy ####, Granderson should probably be on here somewhere...but where? Ehh, he can displace Michael Young.

I'll submit no one has ever gotten close to that many 10th place votes before. Anyone have a quick way to check?

Coming into the year, who would have thought that we'd be discussing whether or not Carlos Pena got screwed on the MVP balloting?

Poor A-Rod. This is probably going to cost him a couple hundred million of dollars.

is there a process to strip these people of their votes?

Yes, it's called congestive heart failure.

Writers don't get penalized. In 1999, George King omitted Pedro Martinez from his MVP ballot and said it was because pitchers shouldn't be eligible for the award. In 1998, he'd voted for both Rick Helling and David Wells. I believe King is still a voter.

Seriously, Abreu?

As for Pena - I can imagine people arguing that you need to be the best hitter in the league to be eligible for MVP discussion if you play for that bad a team.

Well, he might have been--he led the majors in OPS+ if you use one-year park factors. (Although Ordonez and A-Rod and maybe Ortiz were more valuable hitters when you factor in playing time.)

Why do the writers love Vlad Guerrerro? This may just be selective memory, but I feel like he is a guy that consistently gets more MVP talk/votes than he deserves.

the 275 million was for a unanimous mvp, the hank-ees should demand a 6% discount.

Why do the writers love Vlad Guerrerro?

Because the general view of his lineup is Guerrero and the 8 dwarves, probably. He still hits perty good but it's my impression he doesn't field or run too well anymore. I seem to recall him being very lithe and graceful and now he just looks clunky and awkward whenever he moves.

In 1999, George King omitted Pedro Martinez from his MVP ballot and said it was because pitchers shouldn't be eligible for the award. In 1998, he'd voted for both Rick Helling and David Wells.

I've seen this before, but isn't it unusual for someone to vote for the same award two years in a row? I thought they were rotated around.

Y'know, the difference between A-Rod and Magglio was less than nine runs by VORP, and, though I don't have my spreadsheet at work, I think the difference between them on RCAP was no larger than that. And every defensive metric I've seen had Ordonez as a significantly better defensive player than A-Rod, which eats up at least some of that advantage. I would have voted for A-Rod, but somebody voting for Magglio really isn't indefensible--it's certainly not some kind of terrible travesty.

I've seen this before, but isn't it unusual for someone to vote for the same award two years in a row? I thought they were rotated around.

Isn't it also unusual for someone to believe Rick Helling was one of the top ten most valuable players in the league?

Why do the writers love Vlad Guerrerro? This may just be selective memory, but I feel like he is a guy that consistently gets more MVP talk/votes than he deserves.

I don't know about consistently, but I think third is a little high this year. Granted, they still won the division, but when you have a team of gappers and dribblers, you'd probably like your lone slugger to avoid going homerless for a month.

If the Detroit writers cite VORP or RCAP (edit: or EqA) as factors in their vote, then yes, I will change my assumption that they voted for the dude because they're from Detroit.

Vlad was tops in clutch performance and third in WPA this year. That's worth something.

2 votes for Magglio doesn't strike me as bad. They were practically tied in EqA, and by the fans' scouting report Maggs was one of the best defensive RF this year. Those votes for Sosa—or Pedro being left off those ballots—were much much worse.

As usual, the BBWAA has a great top ten. Personally I'd swap Sizemore for Lowell, but otherwise those seem the right ten guys... I'm just not so sure of the order.

I don't know about consistently, but I think third is a little high this year.

Yeah, Vlad wouldn't have made my top ten. Lackey was the Angels' MVP.

Jeter got screwed. It's obvious that ARod wouldn't have hit so well if he didn't play on the same team as The Captain.

Someone ought to take away their children.

Y'know, the difference between A-Rod and Magglio was less than nine runs by VORP, and, though I don't have my spreadsheet at work, I think the difference between them on RCAP was no larger than that. And every defensive metric I've seen had Ordonez as a significantly better defensive player than A-Rod, which eats up at least some of that advantage. I would have voted for A-Rod, but somebody voting for Magglio really isn't indefensible--it's certainly not some kind of terrible travesty.

Exactly. A-Rod was the obvious choice, but refusing to vote for Pedro in 1999 or Ichiro for ROY in 2001 were both infinitely worse than this.

Bitter much, Greg?

No, I just thought it would be hilarious for the official MVP thread to be forever saddled with such a ridiculous headline. I barely care who wins, let alone how the voting breaks down.

Certainly not as egregiously and idiotically homer-driven as George King's MVP vote in 1999, that's for sure.

Pedroia wuz robbed.

Pedroia was robbed in 1999ia.

Speaking of larceny...

A Tale of Two Closers

Putz 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 12
Papelbon 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Someone please go explain that one to me.

2007 BaseRuns (not park-, position-, or clutch-adjusted)

Rodriguez - 154 in 708 PA, 428 outs
Ordonez - 136 in 678 PA, 405 outs

Top offensive players who got no votes:
A. Rios - 111 BsR
B. Roberts - 108
N. Markakis - 105
H. Matsui - 100

A Tale of Two Closers

Putz 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 12
Papelbon 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Someone please go explain that one to me.

OK. One of them had 40 saves and 2 BS, one was 37 and 3.
One had a 6-1 record, the other 1-3.
One pitched 71.2 IP, the other was babied all season and pitched 58.1
One gave up runs in 9 of 68 appearances, one in 9 of 59 appearances.
One had a WPA of 6.17, the other 3.72.

Satisfied yet, or do you want to keep crying that your WS champion didn't get a ###### 8th place vote for MVP.

Really, this is the story of the day? Really?

#### I hate November.

Vlad is too high.

Torii way too low.

Otherwise no big deal. I agree, the fact that it's not unanimous...who's gonna remember that after tomorrow? The Detroit guys are morons, but no big deal.

Pedroia wuz robbed.

Pedroia was robbed in 1999ia.

Nice.

the fact that it's not unanimous...who's gonna remember that after tomorrow? The Detroit guys are morons, but no big deal.

This is basically what I thought.... Maybe minus the morons. Lets say homers.

Why do the writers love Vlad Guerrerro? This may just be selective memory, but I feel like he is a guy that consistently gets more MVP talk/votes than he deserves.

Well, he was 7th in the league in OPS+ this year (just using that as a general starting point), and of the guys above him should rank above Thome. Of the guys below, maybe Granderson, depending on the D.

In '06, he was 10th, and of the guys above him could probably rank above Justin Morneau, Frank Thomas, and maybe Giambi. Of the guys below, Carlos Guillen and A-Rod could get a defensive boost ahead of him. He came in 9th in voting, which seems reasonable.

In '05, he ranked 5th. Of the guys above him, you could argue him ahead of Giambi for D and maybe even David Ortiz on D (though Vlad had considerably less playing time), and even Hafner due to D. Playing time could move Manny up ahead of him (though the D might counteract that). He came in 3rd in voting, which doesn't seem too off, maybe he really shoulda been 4th or 5th instead.

In '04, he was 2nd, to Travis Hafner, and Vlad had over 100 more PA and played defense. I thought that year was a tight race between Vlad, Tejada, and Johan Santana, so Vlad's winning was pretty reasonable.

So this seems like the first year where he was notably higher in the voting than he may have deserved, though it doesn't seem to be too overstated.

Of course, over the past four years, he's been 5th in the AL in OPS+ for guys with 1000+ PA in the league (tied with Manny, actually). He's one of the 10 best hitters in the game and his defense tends to be right around average, give or take a few runs. That guy's gonna get MVP attention, especially when he's by far the best hitter on a division champion.

Yeah, Vlad wouldn't have made my top ten. Lackey was the Angels' MVP.

They're actually pretty close, as far as I can tell; both roughly 4 wins better than average and 6 better than replacement. It kinda depends on Vlad's D and what kind of positional penalty you give RF.

I mean, Vlad's probably been the best overall OF in the major leagues over the past four years (the period of his Angel contract), hasn't he? Unless it's Barry, of course ... using OPS+ as a starting point, his 149 is a second to Barry's 198 -- a distant second, obviously, but there's a huge playing time gap there. Barry adds up to several more runs above average, around 45 more, which is considerable. Not sure what it is compared to replacement, that may narrow the gap somewhat.

Vlad's OPS+ is tied with Manny over the past four years; Vlad has +169.0 runs against average, Manny +160.4. Vlad has a defensive advantage there.

Then you get a dropoff offensively to guys like Moises Alou, Adam Dunn, JD Drew ... I'd be surprised if any of them made up the gap on defense. Drew's at +97.8 runs, I don't think he's getting 70 runs on Vlad with the glove and taking the extra base, that would be 17.5 runs per year.

We finally get down to CF with Jim Edmonds and Carlos Beltran at 131 and 126 in OPS+, or +83.9 and +88.7 runs, respectively. So they'd need to be getting 80 runs on defense and everything else ... I guess Beltran may have been able to do that, but you're still looking at that having to add up to Beltran having an advantage of position, defense, and baserunning totaling +20 runs per season. That seems steep, but I don't know.

I'm just thinking out loud, this notion hadn't really occurred to me before. But it just doesn't strike me as odd that the guy shows up in MVP conversations. I mean, his four seasons with the Angels rank 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 7th in the last four years in OPS+ by an AL RF, 3rd (tie), 5th, 7th, and 11th by MLB RF, and 6th (tie), 8th, 16th, and 23rd in OPS+ by an MLB OF. The only other guy who really compares on that score is Manny (4th, 9th, 10th, 51st). Consistent excellence will get you noticed -- and give you the benefit of the doubt.

In 1993 the two Philly writers put Lenny Dickstraw first over Bonds. I thought that was a lot worse than Ordonez. And Pena did get screwed. Only two votes higher than 6th

LAWoBH, that's my bad. I had assumed Vlad had a hugely negative defensive value due to the fact that I hurt when I watch him run.