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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Friday, July 18, 2008
“Manny was fined six figures to go to a charity,” Lobel said this morning on sports radio WEEI. “That got [Manny’s] attention ... he became a petulant child by being punished. No matter what the crime was, pushing an employee, that was the issue ... he acted out [after they fined him]. They got his attention. He doesn’t like to be punished in any way, shape, or form… “
Lobel’s strong words didn’t stop there. He went on to say that there was a perception that in a pinch-hit at bat at Yankee Stadium on July 6—more than a week after the incident with McCormick—Ramirez took three straight called strikes to send a message to the Sox.
“The thing that most people are forgetting and haven’t talked about is the strikeout in Yankee Stadium,” Lobel said. “The bat on the shoulder for the three pitches from Mariano Rivera. That was a big [expletive] to the Red Sox after the fine. I’m just telling you ... there are things in the front office that are perceived ... I’m saying that there is a strong feeling that that [three-pitch strikeout] was the message to the Red Sox and it’s a strong feeling that that’s unacceptable ... there’s a feeling that he didn’t give it his all, let’s put it that way ... I’m just saying the front office has not forgotten that moment. It’s akin to Nomar sitting on the bench [in a game in which Derek Jeter dove into the stands at Yankee Stadium in 2004]. It’s the same thing. It’s an at-bat that resonated very strongly in the front office.”
Is this the beginning of the end of Manny in Boston? Will Jessica love Chester’s alien twin brother? This and more on the next episode of Soap.
SteveM.
Posted: July 18, 2008 at 12:20 PM | 148 comment(s)
Related News: General, Boston
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But even if this was true, I'd still take him in a heart beat over A-Rod in a high leverage plate appearance.
On the other hand, I remember reading Mike Hargrove saying that Manny would sometimes do this exact same thing with the Indians, not out of anger, but just Manny being Manny. So who the hell knows?
Francona disagreed with the suggestion that Ramirez took a passive approach, but Rivera was surprised.
“Definitely, I was surprised he didn’t take the bat off his shoulder,” Rivera said.
“I don’t know what he was thinking. That’s Manny.”
I watched the game and was surprised he didn't swing.
This is just another hatchet job by an ex-media member looking for relevancy.
i forgot that it was lobel.
I like Manny alot, but no way he's even close to the guy who is clearly their best hitter.
There's a connection there.
How long has Lucchino been there? I ask, only because I remember Boggs and Clemens getting ripped on their way out, and I thought Lucchino was part of the new ownership group.
If he did, he's crazier than Manson.
Babe Ruth!
Oh, you mean good terms for BOSTON...
I remember that at-bat, and the 0-1 and 0-2 were absolutely perfect pitches, 95 mph and darting over the corner. Manny's going to take those pitches 9 times out of 10.
It does appear Manny's a goner. I think that most of the fanbase has too many good feelings toward Manny to make this a really bad breakup, but I guess that's why Lucchino's starting now with the smears - need to get out ahead of the story and reframe it.
Nope. I'm not trying to be a dick, but Manny has to do what Barry Bonds did at the end of his career to be close to Williams.
Pedro got a standing O when he came back to Fenway. So did Orlando Cabrera.
And if those comments are any indication, it is working....
As great as he has been, he's ready to be shipped to a National league team (hello Mets) for some prospects and at pitcher. Ba-bye Man-well
Manny being Manny... disgrace and time for him to move on
I have been a Manny apologist for years. No more.
I don't know about all of you but I would rather have the Sox spend Manny's money on a real money player, can you say Matt Holliday
"overmatched" by Rivera???? You idiot, the guy's a first ballot HOF (manny). He sat there with the bat firmly planted on his shoulder you boob. When you're "overmatched' you're swinging right through a pitch or buckling on a nasty offspeed pitch. You apologist weiny. Get a clue. Manny's gone, good riddence.
There is no sequence of events that result in Manny Ramirez being a better hitter than Williams. I can agree, that if you conceive of any reasonable set of events that can lead to that you are indeed... The Batman.
Dammit. I was just typing that exact phrase.
Manny has the chance to go down as one of the greatest hitter in history, but there's no way short of a miracle that he moves ahead of Ted Williams - especially based on performance in a Boston uniform.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never considered Cabrera as a star.
Dave Winfield got a standing O when he came back to Yankee Stadium. That doesn't mean he left on good terms. (probably on the worst terms ever, actually).
235, 233, 217, 215, 205, 201, 192, 189, 179, 172 - Williams
186, 184, 165, 161, 160, 153, 152, 147, 146, 146 - Ramirez (includes CLE seasons)
Manny is an all-time great hitter, good enough that despite bringing nothing else to the table, he will be a deserving Hall of Famer. And he's not in any way comparable to Ted Williams. That's how great Williams was.
I thought Winfield left New York on good terms, at least among the fans. I thought it was only Steinbrenner who hated him.
No.
First of all, raw hits and home runs are hardly the best measure. For example:
Ted Williams: Career OPS+ 191
Manny: Career OPS+ 154
Second, no matter how many hits or home runs Manny ends up with, he is more than unlikely to have more in a Boston uniform than Williams, since over a 1,000 of the hits and 236 o the home runs came i Cleveland.
Crazy talk! It's inconceivable that a hitter could be nailed on 3 called strikes from a scrub like Mariano Rivera!! In fact, I bet it's NEVER happened before in the entire history of baseball!!!
Hey, with defense factored in, you have to say Joe D deserved that MVP over Williams. No?
What the Yankees did to Winfield is truly bizarre, far worse than anything the Sox did to one of their players, which is basically declining to sign them and saying out loud they aren't that good anymore to the fans who were asking why.
Aren't we talking about management?
Anyway, in Boston Ray Borque left on good terms with both management and the fans. He was a star for sure. Reggie Lewis too. (too soon?)
Look, I don't know why Manny didn't swing, but I just re-watched the pitches and they were very fine indeed, but nothing out of the ordinary. He missed his spot on the 1st pitch (they clearly wanted it up) and it's waist-high, inside half. The second pitch is fine, too, but catches plate as well, and the third is more of the same. I'm with Mo in wondering why Manny never took the bat off his shoulder.
Crissakes man!
Oh yeah. I hope the Sawx pick up that $20 million option. Poor guy. Boo hoo, Manny, boo hoo! If it'll make you feel better, you can push Julio Franco around next time you see him.
Boggs dug his own grave. With Clemens, they made him a fair offer that insulted him because it wouldn't have made him the highest paid player in baseball. Vaughn was eating his way out of the league. I don't think any of those were bad decisions.
Conversely, when a star from a small market team leaves to sign a humongous contract with a contender in a big market, are you really expecting the player to piss and moan about it? Most of them do cartwheels around the outfield, they so giddy about their elevation in life.
I think their exact words were that they saw Winfield as a hitter in the twilight of his career.
Zing!
Though I agree the Winfield business was absolutely horrid. Darkest days in Yankee history.
So that leaves Nomar.
Boggs, Clemens, and Vaughn all left under a completely different ownership, which has nothing to do with the current one.
Yeah, after Steinbrenner hired a scumbag to dig up dirt on him.
Sure, those two situations are analogous. Right.
I should have phrased it better. Basically, it seems that every star who leaves Boston gets ripped by both the team and the media, no matter what the fans think. In the comparison point, I thought Winfield was hated by the team management (Big S), but was still liked by the fans and media.
I just find it so interesting that the Boston sports media seems to be such an extension of the team, when it comes to players leaving.
I always got the impression that Bruins fans and media felt sorry for Borque, since he'd tried for his entire career to win in Boston, while playing for the cheapest owner in the game.
It's often comical when sj's loyalty to the Yankees collides with his common sense. Here's an example.
Remember the Pedro freak out in Texas? Was it Texas? Whatever, it was after a game, and Pedro called the entire Front Office liars. It was a lot deeper than simply not offering a 4 year deal.
wire the governor, tell him I said, "ow"?
SJ was pretty obviously joking with the twilight line...and I think it's a little odd you're accusing anyone else of lacking objectivity with regards to their home team.
His contract was coming up, so Big Stein hired a private investigator to look into DW's private life, to dig up dirt on him. This is the reason Stein was suspended for a year.
Like I said, the most embarrassing, classless moment in Yankee history.
Sure. Because he wasn't getting what he wanted either. He didn't leave on very good terms with the Angels or Mets either, mostly because he was a huge disappointment. Which only validates the decision the sox made on him.
No athlete wants to be told "We're going to take a pass on you". It hurts their vanity. Some of the time, they take it public, to try to curry favor with the fans and maybe gain a little extra leverage.
Thank you... Howard Spira, Dave Winfield and Fay Vincent.
Then you disavowed your endorsement in the very next line.
I found that amusing.
Didn't Theo leave on very bad terms?
I found that amusing.
It's always amusing when iterations get dissembled.
This was also the culmination of a decade long feud between Winfield and Big Stein over the specific terms of Winfield's contract (which were greater than George realized when he agreed to it), so a lot of bad blood had already been built up.
Fine, be that way. Teddy managed to put up shortened season OPS+ of 201, 209, 172, 233, and 179 from ages 35 to 39 in the years 1954 to 1958.
I found that amusing.
I believe you are more intelligent than this post would imply.
I believe you need an editor more than this post would imply.
Awww. I'm just hyped up about the Greg Smith-Mike Mussina change of pace festival I'm about to go see.
Aw, you're gonna be there too? Sonofabitch, I can't believe I can't make it.
I disagree with this. If they want to do that, it is fine. But in a couple very prominent cases, they start campaigns through the media. Whether it be, Manny quit in an AB, or Pedro isn't team first because he wasn't in the Bronx in game 6. Or Nomar isn't a gamer because he wasn't on the top step.
It appears that they are just going to go with, "Schilling can't pitch anymore." But fans know that anyway.
Don't forget the "Clemens is fat & lazy" campaign, intertwined with the "Clemens doesn't know how to win anymore" campaign, which turned into the "Clemens is a greedy bastard" campaign when he signed with Toronto.
I believe they are not.
4/25/99 v. Shawn Green
6/12/08 v. Carlos Gonzalez
and the Manny K.
I was supposed to go to the game AND golf, but I drank myself right out of the trip.
Well, CHB did crap out that column dumping all over Schilling's HOF chances...
I think we may be overestimating how much influence over the Boston media should be attributed to the Red Sox FO. Yeah, the stuff with Schilling's shoulder got a little testy this spring, but I don't think that was a smear campaign. In this latest "scandal" with Manny, let's not forget that there are plenty of people who cover the Red Sox who don't particularly care for him and who didn't need Lucchino or anybody else yanking their puppet strings to arrive at that opinion.
I am screwed for the same reason, now being obliged to do something because I was too drunk to do something else I had promised to do earlier.
You're confusing the press with the front office.
The NY press does the same thing (see: Rodriguez, Alex).
I don't know if Clemens was tabbed with the greedy bastard thing before arriving in Toronto but he sure was after leaving for NY.
Basically, I agree with this sentiment, except there are the very over-the-top media battles that seem obviously conducted by Red Sox FO people. Lucchino versus Theo was basically the Globe versus the Herald for that week period when Theo walked away. It was so obvious that CHB and Masserotti were being used as mouthpieces, it was bizarre.
Us Toronto fans weren't polite enough to stop at greedy bastard.
Foxx
Hornsby
McGwire
Greenberg
Frank Thomas
Dick Allen
Mays
Aaron
Dimaggio
Frank Robinson
Manny fits in pretty comfortably in the latter part of the list, perhaps a bit above such guys like Bagwell and Kiner.
Pujols of course has a peak argument, still a bit too early to put him on the list tho.
Sure, rub it in.
thats what Dial sounds like.
I'll take some photos. Whether that will constitute rubbing it in or convicing you that not coming is an open question.
There's a certain element of truth to this. But it really isn't true anymore. Will McDonough was notorious for sucking up to ownership and management and I think CHB, as a young reporter, saw from McDonough how lazy you could be and still get enough material for two columns a week by having phone access to the front offices. But Harrington and Duquette are gone, and so is MdcDonough, and CHB has been neutered so I don't think it's true anymore.
I'm sure the NY papers have a few guys pulling the same crap but I suppose you would know those guys better than I. I would think Lupica is one of them.
actually, I can't think of any NY reporter or collumnist who shows much sycophancy. Maybe the Yankees and Mets are more controlling of access than the Sox.
Also, I think the Boston media and not necessarily the team ownership at the time is primarily responsible for "the kiss" given to departing Sawx.
It's gonna be interesting; I think Ortiz (despite being a black guy with an accent - a negative in the Boston baseball universe) is as close to bulletproof and beloved by all as you're going to find. And he is arguably the most integral part of the two championships for them. At some point he'll decline badly and not be worth the investment; that time may even be now. It'll be interesting to read PR hacks like CHB as they try to minimize his past contributions and find personal dirt to write about.
A) Lupica doesn't report anything anymore. and B) he can't even get into the lower section anymore.
well yeah, but that has more to do with appealing to the dumb-#### fans who dump on ARod. If you want sycophancy, tune in to YES.
The media is going to dump on the ARod, there isn't much the FO can do to stop it.
I'm Mike ####### Lupica and I'm the best ####### writer in baseball!
That's because A-Rod is a highly talented player, who always manages to come off as a complete ######### - the slapping incident, the "mine" incident, the Toronto stripper incident, the Madonna incident, the "which team will I play for in the WBS" incident. I don't think there's anyone unwilling to admit that A-Rod is a great player, but he just seems to get himself in so many stupid situations, completely of his own making.
OK. Sure. YES is a good example. The TV people in Boston aren't nearly as bad as the NY TV people.
But the writers are worse so I guess it all evens out.
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