Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, April 07, 2008

Dugout Central: Taylor: Best Red Sox Pitcher Ever Too Close to Call

Contacted at his memorabilia shop in the Ben Gurion Airport...Gene Conley seemed pleased.

It seems that most teams, like the Mets with Tom Seaver, have one standout pitcher that is head and shoulders above the rest. So I went out to trusty Baseball-Reference to try and find another team that has had two equally great pitchers. It was easy enough to find teams that could be debatable, like the Braves with Spahn and Maddux, but another reason the Appier/Saberhagen debate is such a good one is that their stats are so comparable. Spahn had twice as many innings with the Braves and 150 more wins, while Maddux’s ERA+ was 25% better. Both were unbelievable pitchers, but their values were in different stats.

This brought me to an unlikely team: the Boston Red Sox with Cy Young and Roger Clemens. Normally any time you bring Cy Young into an argument it’s an uphill battle because the game was so different back then, with pitchers racking up more innings and more wins. However, when you narrow their careers down to just their Red Sox days, you’ll see Young had 192 wins and 2,728.3 innings while Clemens had 192 wins and 2,776 innings.

Obviously they played in very different eras, and Young was able to amass these stats in just eight years while it took Clemens 13, so I’ll be looking primarily at rate stats like WHIP and stats that take league difficulty into account like ERA+. Even then though, it’s amazing how well they stack up against each other.

Repoz Posted: April 07, 2008 at 03:58 PM | 60 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralHistory

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 1 pages
   1. too fat and ugly to play third Posted: April 07, 2008 at 04:27 PM (#2733862)
Is it Ed Walsh for the White Sox? Or do Ted Lyons or Red Faber get extra credit for pitching 1000 more innings?
   2. Shooty Is A One Man Legion Posted: April 07, 2008 at 04:30 PM (#2733870)
Lefty Grove is the easy one for the A's.
   3. Tim Lincecum doesn't Wang Chung tonite (GGC) Posted: April 07, 2008 at 04:30 PM (#2733871)
Contacted at his memorabilia shop in the Ben Gurion Airport...Gene Conley seemed pleased.


I'd say that he was more pumpsied than anything else.
   4. Le Comble du Bob Dernier Cri Posted: April 07, 2008 at 04:36 PM (#2733890)
The best Texas Ranger pitcher ever, aside from Who Cares, is Charlie Hough, with Kenny Rogers a close second.

Lefty Grove, aside from being the A's best, might be the best left-handed pitcher ever for the Red Sox as well. It's either Grove or Mel Parnell.
   5. El Hombre Triple Crown? (Le Samourai) Posted: April 07, 2008 at 04:44 PM (#2733904)
Bob Gibson is the easy Cardinal one.
   6. Mattbert Posted: April 07, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2733916)
From the piece:
Pedro at his peak was in a different class then just about any pitcher the game has ever seen, and if I needed to pick one starter to pitch six innings for me, I’d choose Pedro every time. Unfortunately he just didn’t ever have the longevity to truly be considered the greatest.

Pedro at his peak averaged well over 7 innings per start. During his dominant 3-year run with the Sox from 1998-2000, he threw 15 complete games. He threw 13 CGs in his final year as an Expo alone. In the context of his era, he was a horse during those peak years.
   7. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: April 07, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2733917)
THANK YOU, KENNY ROGERS!

It needed to be said.
   8. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch) Posted: April 07, 2008 at 05:03 PM (#2733933)
In the context of his era, he was a horse during those peak years.

Only one top-5 finish in innings pitched (4th in 1996), with only six seasons in the top 10 in his career. Only three seasons in the top 10 in batters faced in his career, none in the top five. Pedro's fragility during his peak is often overstated, but even during his peak, he doesn't fit the Clemens/Maddux mold of a horse.
   9. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch) Posted: April 07, 2008 at 05:06 PM (#2733941)
The best Texas Ranger pitcher ever, aside from Who Cares, is Charlie Hough, with Kenny Rogers a close second.

Nolan Ryan's got an argument here as well. Less than 1000 innings as a Ranger, but more effective per inning than Hough or Rogers, and just outside the top 10 in innings pitched in Rangers history.
   10. Artie Ziff Posted: April 07, 2008 at 05:25 PM (#2734012)
Until they change the name of the Young award to honor Roger Clemens, it is pretty much an undebatable question. Clemens is a fantastic runner-up though in my opinion.
   11. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: April 07, 2008 at 05:32 PM (#2734039)
Until they change the name of the Young award to honor Roger Clemens, it is pretty much an undebatable question. Clemens is a fantastic runner-up though in my opinion.


There's an award for best Red Sox pitcher ever?
   12. Norcan Posted: April 07, 2008 at 05:36 PM (#2734050)
if I needed to pick one starter to pitch six innings for me, I’d choose Pedro every time.


What a backhanded compliment and a stupid one at that. Is it really that hard to notice that Pedro, in his prime, went deep into games? You can't even be considered a no.1 starter if you don't routinely go at least 7 innings. If Pedro throughout his career mostly went 6 and out, there is no way he'd be considered one of the greatest ever. It's pretty impressive on per game basis if you can amass 217 or so innings in only 29 starts.
   13. pkb33 Posted: April 07, 2008 at 05:49 PM (#2734073)
Pedro at his peak was in a different class then just about any pitcher the game has ever seen,

You don't need the 'just about' in this. And this guy didn't look at Pedro's game logs much, either, as others have noted. The six-inning Pedro is a Mets-era thing, and not representative of what he did in Boston...which was supposed to be the topic, I thought.
   14. Le Comble du Bob Dernier Cri Posted: April 07, 2008 at 05:53 PM (#2734083)
I wouldn't include Grove. His best years were behind him by the time he got to Boston

Grove wouldn't be the best overall, but maybe the best Sox left-hander. Both he and Parnell had five outstanding years for Boston. The four ERA titles might tip it to Grove.
   15. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 07, 2008 at 06:09 PM (#2734132)
You want a real challenge? Best starter in the history of the Pirates.
   16. Yankee_Redneck Posted: April 07, 2008 at 06:13 PM (#2734148)
You want a real challenge? Best starter in the history of the Pirates.


John Candelaria or Bob Friend?
   17. Crispix Attacks Posted: April 07, 2008 at 06:19 PM (#2734161)
Why, that would of course be, um, Vern Law. Or Deacon Phillippe. Or Rick Rhoden.
   18. Le Comble du Bob Dernier Cri Posted: April 07, 2008 at 06:22 PM (#2734176)
Wilbur Cooper?
   19. Teddy F. Ballgame Posted: April 07, 2008 at 06:29 PM (#2734190)
Probably Honus Wagner.
   20. OCF Posted: April 07, 2008 at 06:47 PM (#2734214)
Vic Willis, Phillippe, Sam Leever, Babe Adams - the Pirates had a bunch of good ones. And it was a long time ago.
   21. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: April 07, 2008 at 07:23 PM (#2734263)
Lefty Grove, aside from being the A's best, might be the best left-handed pitcher ever for the Red Sox as well.

Counting only Grove's Red Sox years, I take Ruth, who I'm surprised isn't even in the conversation at this point, especially if Pedro is worthy of consideration at all.

If Pedro throughout his career mostly went 6 and out, there is no way he'd be considered one of the greatest ever.

Not being snarky at all, is the difference really that great between a 6-and-out pitcher and a 7-and-out pitcher? I seem to recall (potentially errantly) that some of the criticism of Grady following the 2003 debacle was that he should have known Pedro's history of falling off after the seventh inning and probably should not have even run him out to start the eighth.
   22. PJ Martinez Posted: April 07, 2008 at 07:35 PM (#2734286)
I seem to recall (potentially errantly) that some of the criticism of Grady following the 2003 debacle was that he should have known Pedro's history of falling off after the seventh inning and probably should not have even run him out to start the eighth.


Pedro in 2003 was not Pedro in 1998-2000. Yes, he had a short peak, but it's that peak that's in question. And Pedro went 8 and 9 innings frequently during those years.
   23. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: April 07, 2008 at 07:36 PM (#2734287)
You want a real challenge? Best starter in the history of the Pirates.

Dock Ellis. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise. Dude tried to bean the entire Big Red Machine.
   24. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn) Posted: April 07, 2008 at 07:40 PM (#2734293)
Pedro wasn't a god damn six inning pitcher at any time in his career with the Red Sox. Even in 2003.

Cy Young shouldn't be in this discussion. The quality of play in 1908 was so shoddy that unless you were Walter Johnson you shouldn't be in this discussion considering the length of time Young pitched with the Red Sox.

It's between Pedro and Roger, and while there's a very good discussion for Roger, Pedro was freakishly dominant overall with the Red Sox.
   25. whoisalhedges Posted: April 07, 2008 at 07:42 PM (#2734297)
You want a real challenge? Best starter in the history of the Pirates.

Considering the level of competition? I might have to go with the Candy Man. Babe Adams really has a strong case, though, and faced tougher competition than Leever or Phillipe.

For the Sox, I'd have to go with Clemens. Many more innings pitched in Boston than Pedro, and better vs. league than Young. Sure, if you include Cy's years with the Spiders, he has a case; but that's not the purpose of this exercise.
   26. karlmagnus Posted: April 07, 2008 at 08:51 PM (#2734388)
Sox? Tim Wakefield. He'll have that 192 wins mark before he's done.
   27. AndrewJ Posted: April 07, 2008 at 09:02 PM (#2734404)
How about the two greatest Yankee pitchers -- Whitey Ford and...?
   28. pkb33 Posted: April 07, 2008 at 09:08 PM (#2734409)
I seem to recall (potentially errantly) that some of the criticism of Grady following the 2003 debacle was that he should have known Pedro's history of falling off after the seventh inning and probably should not have even run him out to start the eighth.

It was after 100 pitches, which for Pedro often got him 7 innings or more. There was no point in his Red Sox career where he was ever viewed by anyone as a six inning pitcher; at worst, he was viewed as a 7 inning pitcher in 2003-4.
   29. Srul Itza Posted: April 07, 2008 at 09:26 PM (#2734428)
Whitey Ford and...?

Ron Guidry or Red Ruffing.
   30. Mattbert Posted: April 08, 2008 at 06:44 AM (#2734614)
Only one top-5 finish in innings pitched (4th in 1996), with only six seasons in the top 10 in his career. Only three seasons in the top 10 in batters faced in his career, none in the top five.

AL Top 5 in IP, compared to Pedro:

1998
251.3 Erickson
238.7 Rogers
234.7 Clemens
234.3 Moyer
234.0 Belcher
---
233.7 Martinez

1999
231.7 Wells
230.3 Erickson
228.0 Moyer
220.0 Burba
219.3 Helling
---
213.3 Martinez

2000
237.7 Mussina
229.7 Wells
227.3 Rogers
226.7 Radke
222.0 Ponson
---
217.0 Martinez

During his 3-year Boston peak, less than one start's worth of innings separated Pedro from a Top 5 finish in IP for his league. In 1998, he would've tied Clemens for 3rd place if he'd thrown a whopping ONE more inning. He also led his team in IP for each of those 3 years: +17.7 IP (1998), +63.0 IP (1999), and +57.7 IP (2000).

Not sure why batters faced would be a good metric by which to evaluate Pedro's durability. He doesn't face very many because he's really, really good at his job.
   31. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: April 08, 2008 at 07:43 AM (#2734624)
Not sure why batters faced would be a good metric by which to evaluate Pedro's durability. He doesn't face very many because he's really, really good at his job.


Yeah, it's kind of like saying that he's not elite because he wasn't crushing the league in HRs allowed, BB, and hits allowed.
   32. chris p Posted: April 08, 2008 at 07:53 AM (#2734627)
Dude tried to bean the entire Big Red Machine.

the most amazing thing about that incident, at least in the context of the current baseball environment, is that it was his MANAGER that took him out ... HE DIDN'T GET EJECTED!!!
   33. chris p Posted: April 08, 2008 at 07:54 AM (#2734628)
if pedro wasn't such a nancyboy he wouldn't have given up that no-hitter in the 10th.
   34. Fly Has Risen, Like a Phoenix from Arizona Posted: April 08, 2008 at 09:31 AM (#2734663)
Chrisp, he's a 9.1 inning pitcher, at best.
   35. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 08, 2008 at 09:41 AM (#2734668)
To answer the headline, I thought it was Clay Buccholz?
   36. aleskel Posted: April 08, 2008 at 10:07 AM (#2734687)
Whitey Ford and...?

Ron Guidry or Red Ruffing.


Lefty Gomez has to at least be in the conversation
   37. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: April 08, 2008 at 10:23 AM (#2734695)
Not sure why batters faced would be a good metric by which to evaluate Pedro's durability. He doesn't face very many because he's really, really good at his job.

Stating the obvious: being "really, really good at his job" should allow a durable pitcher to face more batters than other similarly durable pitchers. Being unable to face as many batters as less efficient pitchers is not a check in the pro-durability column.
   38. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: April 08, 2008 at 12:57 PM (#2734821)
Whitey Ford and...?

Ron Guidry or Red Ruffing.

Lefty Gomez has to at least be in the conversation


Rivera?
   39. Double-Spin Mechanic Posted: April 08, 2008 at 04:04 PM (#2735372)
Being unable to face as many batters as less efficient pitchers is not a check in the pro-durability column.


I thought the idea was to get outs. Has anybody figured out how to count those?
   40. Mike Green Posted: April 08, 2008 at 04:22 PM (#2735440)
Best Blue Jay pitcher for peak is clearly Clemens, and for career is clearly Stieb.

I'd take Pedro's time with the Sox over Clemens'. Pedro through the end of his career with the Sox at age 32 had thrown 2300 innings with a ERA+ of 168. Roger at the same point had thrown 2500 innings with a ERA+ of 145. Roger had one more mediocre season in Boston before leaving town.
   41. Jolly Old St. Nick (now, with Screen Name history) Posted: April 08, 2008 at 04:27 PM (#2735461)
Whitey Ford and...?

Ron Guidry or Red Ruffing.

Lefty Gomez has to at least be in the conversation


Gomez is probably the Yanks' best outside of Ford, but it's actually pretty amazing that with all the titles they've won, there haven't been any other A-level HOF pitchers. And even Ford isn't quite at the top of the A-level. Lots of his record was due to his run support and the enormous Yankee Stadium park advantage for a LHP.
   42. Mike Emeigh Posted: April 08, 2008 at 04:35 PM (#2735489)
Wilbur Cooper was probably the best Pirate pitcher ever. Unfortunately, his best seasons coincided with Honus Wagner's decline phase and the subsequent rebuilding of the club, and by the time that they became good enough to win a title again he was gone.

EDIT: Babe Adams was a good pitcher, but not nearly as durable as was Cooper.

-- MWE
   43. ian Posted: April 08, 2008 at 04:44 PM (#2735513)
The Tigers don't seem to have a lot of SP in their history.

Best: Jack Morris? Mickey Lolich?
   44. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 08, 2008 at 04:48 PM (#2735528)
I thought the idea was to get outs. Has anybody figured out how to count those?


The argument Greg Maddux is making isn't whether Pedro was good - obviously he was fantastic. But if it only takes a guy 12 pitches/3.5 batters to get through a typical inning, he should be able to throw more innings than a pitcher of similar durability who requires 18 pitches/4 batters.*

* Numbers pulled out of my a$$.

I'd take Pedro's time with the Sox over Clemens'. Pedro through the end of his career with the Sox at age 32 had thrown 2300 innings with a ERA+ of 168. Roger at the same point had thrown 2500 innings with a ERA+ of 145. Roger had one more mediocre season in Boston before leaving town.


You've got to include Pedro's time with L.A. and Montreal to get those 2,300 innings.
   45. Drexl Spivey Posted: April 08, 2008 at 06:38 PM (#2735715)
For the Brewers:
Peak: Ben Sheets
Career: Probably Sheets. That's depressing.
   46. Kiko Sakata Posted: April 08, 2008 at 06:50 PM (#2735718)
The Tigers don't seem to have a lot of SP in their history.

Best: Jack Morris? Mickey Lolich?


Hal Newhouser. His numbers in 1944-45 are war-inflated, but his 1946 was against legit (albeit all-white) competition and he was still excellent for 2 or 3 more years after that. I'd think that's enough to beat Morris and Lolich.
   47. Kiko Sakata Posted: April 08, 2008 at 06:53 PM (#2735720)
A team that hasn't been mentioned here that's got a really interesting competition is the Phillies. Your choices are Grover Cleveland Alexander, Robin Roberts, and Steve Carlton. That's a heck of a front three - probably better than anybody else's top 3 except for maybe the Red Sox.
   48. Dag Nabbit Posted: April 08, 2008 at 06:59 PM (#2735725)
For the fart of it - best pitchers, by franchise - based on only a couple seconds though & no research:

Cubs - Mordecai Brown
Cards - Bob Gibson
Phillies - Steve Carlton
Giants - Christy Mathewson
Pirates - Wilbur Cooper
Reds - . .. . Dolf Luque?
Braves - Greg Maddux
Dodgers - Dazzy Vance

A's - Lefty Grove
Red Sox - Roger Clemens
Yanks - Whitey Ford
White Sox - Ed Walsh
Was/Min - Walter Johnson
Browns/Orioles - Jim Palmer
Tigers - Hal Newhouser
Indians - Bob Feller

Angels - Nolan Ryan
Mets - Tom Seaver
Astros - Larry Dierker?
Rangers - Not Applicable
Royals - Kevin Appier
Brewers - Jim Slaton?
Padres - Gaylord Perry?
Expos - Steve Rogers
Jays - Dave Stieb
Mariners - Randy Johnson
Rockies - Pedro Astacio
Marlins - A. J. Burnett?
Rays - Kazmir
Diamondbacks - Randy Johnson
   49. Dag Nabbit Posted: April 08, 2008 at 07:01 PM (#2735726)
That's a heck of a front three - probably better than anybody else's top 3 except for maybe the Red Sox.


Hmmmm . . Giants - Mathewson, Marichal, Hubbell.

Plus McGinnity, Rusie, Welch, Keefe, & Gaylord Perry.
   50. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: April 08, 2008 at 07:23 PM (#2735744)
I'd be pretty happy with almost any permutation of three from Maddux, Spahn, Niekro, Nichols, Glavine, and Smoltz.

On edit:

Angels - Nolan Ryan
Mets - Tom Seaver
Astros - Larry Dierker?
Rangers - Not Applicable

Ryan belongs in at least two of those. Maybe three. I'll give you Seaver, though. Heh.
   51. JJ1986 Posted: April 08, 2008 at 07:30 PM (#2735746)
I'd take Peavy already as the Padres best starter. Hoffman as best pitcher.
   52. Crispix Attacks Posted: April 08, 2008 at 07:38 PM (#2735758)
For the Brewers:
Peak: Ben Sheets
Career: Probably Sheets. That's depressing.


Hey, let's not forget about any of the pitchers who have at least won over 100 games with the Brewers. Why, checking BB-ref, we're reminded of the great career performances of...

geez, I've never heard of either of those guys.
   53. Crispix Attacks Posted: April 08, 2008 at 07:39 PM (#2735760)
Sure, the Brewers have only existed for 40 years, but...well, here are their leaders in wins, followed by innings.

1. Jim Slaton 117 2025.3
2. Mike Caldwell 102 1604.7
3. Teddy Higuera 94 1380.0
4. Moose Haas 91 1542.0
5. Bill Wegman 81 1482.7
6. Ben Sheets 74 1245.0
7. Chris Bosio 67 1190.0
8. Bill Travers 65 1068.3
9. Cal Eldred 64 1078.7
10. Jaime Navarro 62 1061.7

Whoof.
   54. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: April 08, 2008 at 08:08 PM (#2735801)
Hasn't Oswalt already outpaced Ryan for the Astros?
   55. Harold Posted: April 08, 2008 at 08:39 PM (#2735831)
That Brewers list is more impressive than the Padres'. Peavy is already third all-time on the team with 77 wins. I'd have to pick either him or Randy Jones. Perry was only there for two years; while those were good years, they weren't really any better than Jones' best years.
   56. AndrewJ Posted: April 08, 2008 at 09:01 PM (#2735845)
A team that hasn't been mentioned here that's got a really interesting competition is the Phillies. Your choices are Grover Cleveland Alexander, Robin Roberts, and Steve Carlton. That's a heck of a front three

And you'd have a HOF-caliber pitcher as #4 starter -- Eppa Rixey, Jim Bunning or Curt Schilling...
   57. Boots Day Posted: April 08, 2008 at 09:50 PM (#2735885)
Rockies - Pedro Astacio

The contenders for the Rockies are:

Astacio: 102 ERA+ in 827.3 IP, 129 starts, 53-48 W-L
Jeff Francis: 103 ERA+ in 614 IP, 107 starts, 47-35 W-L
Aaron Cook: 109 ERA+ in 731.3 IP, 109 starts, 36-36 W-L
Jason Jennings: 103 ERA+ in 941 IP, 156 starts, 58-56 W-L

You might go with Cook, except that (1) he has big problems with in-season durability, only having started 30 games in a season once in his career, and (2) it would be totally embarrassing to have a pitcher with a career 36-36 record as the best pitcher in franchise history.

Francis and Cook, of course, are still both in there slogging away, and my guess is that whichever one has the better season this year will emerge by the end of it as the best pitcher in Rockies history. (And my further guess is that it will be Jeff Francis.) At this moment, I'd rank them:

Jennings
Cook
Astacio
Francis
   58. Srul Itza Posted: April 08, 2008 at 11:19 PM (#2735984)
Gomez is probably the Yanks' best outside of Ford,

Yeah, that was a miss on my part. I should have thrown him in. Still, Ruffing pitched 670 more innings for the Yankees, won 42 more games for them, and was about as effective in the World Series as Gomez -- 7-2, 85.2 IP, 2.63 ERA and 6-1 in series, vs. 6-0, 50.1 IP, 2.86 ERA and 5-0 in series.

Overall, Ruffing, as a Yankee, was 231-124 with a 3.47 ERA in 3,168 IP, while Gomez was 189-101 with a 3.34 ERA in 2,498 IP. They were almost exact contemporaries on the Yankees, both joining the team in 1930 and playing through 1942. Ruffing came back and played some more in 1945 and 46; but that was only 148 IP.

Whatever advantage Gomez had in peak or quality, it seems to me that Ruffing makes up all or most of it in quantity. What am I missing, Andy?
Page 1 of 1 pages

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

<< Back to main

Support BBTF

donate

My Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Vivid Seats is a sports ticket broker, concert ticket broker and theater ticket broker offering the best baseball tickets like Yankees tickets, Cubs tickets, and Red Sox tickets, as well as Police reunion tour tickets and Jersey Boys tickets.

We have baseball tickets, the NFL schedule, college football tickets and Cowboys tickets. We have NBA tickets like Celtics tickets and Lakers tickets. Plus, buy concert tickets, Patriots tickets and Colts tickets. Also check out our MLB baseball schedule

Baseball Bats

Concerts Theatre NFL Angels Dodgers MLB Celtics Theater NBA Tickets Venues NHL Lakers Tickets NFL Yankees NHL Phillies NBA Wicked Marlins MLB Concerts Cubs Mets Red Sox Wicked WWE Red Sox Mets Yankees Dodgers

Major League Baseball: All Star Game, New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox, LA Angels, Washington Nationals, Chicago White Sox, and the Chicago Cubs.

Find terrific deals on Yankees tickets for the new home, Cubs tickets for classic Wrigley, or Red Sox tickets for Fenway with OnlineSeats. We have seats for every baseball game, including Dodgers tickets.

Page rendered in 1.2134 seconds
81 querie(s) executed