WHY MORRIS WHY?

Apparently, being a durable, slightly above average starter with a 3.80 postseason ERA makes you a Hall of Famer. That's one hell of a big hall.

Fine, and it's counteracted by all the voters who have small halls. And in the end, the HOF comes out as the size it is. I guess it would be a lot more interesting if every voter submitted a BTF-approved ballot with the exact same 5.4 names on it.

have to agree with 2. I'm not a fan of Morris in the hof, but the rest of this ballot is very good. (any ballot with Raines, Blyleven, McGwire and Trammel is going to get my stamp of approval even if it includes Morris and Gossage)

have to agree with 2. I'm not a fan of Morris in the hof, but the rest of this ballot is very good. (any ballot with Raines, Blyleven, McGwire and Trammel is going to get my stamp of approval even if it includes Morris and Gossage

Me too. I'm ok with some extra guys going in if ALL the right guys are going in, too.

And in the meantime, I plan to write Tim Raines’ name on my ballot, if for no better reason than to get another Expos cap on a plaque.

Is he going to write-in Pepe Frias and Barry Foote, too?

Me too. I'm ok with some extra guys going in if ALL the right guys are going in, too.

Same here.

I am getting my hopes WAAAYYY too high for Tim Raines.

I don't know if the keepers of the keys or just trying to toy with me with the seemingly unending parade of "Tim Raines" ballots or what, but I'm starting to believe he has a legitimate shot, if not of getting in this year, of pulling a solid 50-60% that would lead me to believe it'll get done.

even if it includes Morris and Gossage

By the now-accepted HOF standards for relief pitchers, Gossage most certainly belongs. If you want to say relief pitchers don't belong, fine. Make your own Hall. But if you are going to enshrine the great relief pitchers, the ones who made a mark on the game, the ones who deserve to be remembered in this was -- Goose is in.

It is not the Hall of Sabermetric Virtue or the Hall of Win Shares, it is the Hall of Fame.

I also concur that there is a lot more good than bad on that ballot, since he has Trammell and Raines, Bert and Goose. I love Dawson and would like to see him in, even if he doesn't make the cut for some people.

By the now-accepted HOF standards for relief pitchers, Gossage most certainly belongs. If you want to say relief pitchers don't belong, fine. Make your own Hall. But if you are going to enshrine the great relief pitchers, the ones who made a mark on the game, the ones who deserve to be remembered in this was -- Goose is in.

agreed, but once again I'm not going to let a previous massive mistake (sutter) affect my future thoughts. Sutter doesn't belong, and Gossage is clearly superior so using lowest common denominator I have no problem with Gossage going in, but neither player in my opinion is hof worthy, my bar for relievers is Eckersley and he is helped out by a few years as a good starter. (of course this argument has been hashed out, and I have no problem with the inclusion of gossage, but I don't separate 'relievers' vs 'starters' they are all just pitchers, and a couple of horrendous decisions doesn't require me to change my thinking, Sutter doesn't belong any more than Quiz or Lee Smith or even Tekulve and Gossage is better than all, but he doesn't either)

It is not the Hall of Sabermetric Virtue or the Hall of Win Shares, it is the Hall of Fame.

FWIW, as someone who likes both sabermetrics and Win Shares, I was a big supporter of Gossage's candidacy for both the HoM and the HOF.

Last few years someone (forget who) kept a running total of the votes of the voters who publicly disclosed their ballots-why did they stop doing that?

agreed, but once again I'm not going to let a previous massive mistake (sutter) affect my future thoughts.

But it's not Sutter. It's Fingers.

Gossage is not in under a "lowest common denominator" argument. He's in under a we're-putting-closers-in-the-Hall argument, and he's among the elite of that category. I don't want closers in there, but if any are going to be in, Gossage has to be. And Rivera. You can leave out everyone else, but those two fit.

I'm very confused. Caple says internt members were just admitted, "so I have to pays dues again". Yet he has a HoF ballot...and his column implies he was involved in the other BBWAA votes.

Can someone explain this?

I guess it would be a lot more interesting if every voter submitted a BTF-approved ballot with the exact same 5.4 names on it.

That would bore the hell out of my 1.8 children.

Can someone explain this?

I believe that Caple started out in the newspaper biz, and got his BBWAA card the old fashioned way. I would assume that there's some kind of emeritus category for guys who don't currently work in the print media, and that he's been in that class. Once you're a ten-year member, you get a HOF vote forever. You don't have to keep working for a daily paper to keep your membership or your voting priveleges. I guess the paying dues again part is a joke, but I suppose it's possible that the BBWAA really could make guys like Caple active members again if they wanted to.

I guess the paying dues again part is a joke, but I suppose it's possible that the BBWAA really could make guys like Caple active members again if they wanted to.

Uh, they did. He was one of the 16 guys they gave active membership to when they snubbed Neyer/Law.

Chuck Knoblauch: He seemed as if he might be on his way to Cooperstown before demanding a trade from the Twins in 1998, going to New York, winning a couple World Series and then quite suddenly losing his skills. <u>He hit Keith Olbermann's mother with an errant throw</u>

if you drop "<u>'s mother</u>" from the sentence he has my vote

He was one of the 16 guys they gave active membership to when they snubbed Neyer/Law.

Well obviously I didn't pay too much attention to that fiasco, but WTF was the point of giving membership to a member? How many of the other 16 new members were already members?

How many of the other 16 new members were already members?

I got the impression that 14 of the 16 were already members. The woman (Amy something?) and maybe Wetzel(?) were legitimately new.

Well obviously I didn't pay too much attention to that fiasco, but WTF was the point of giving membership to a member? How many of the other 16 new members were already members?

Caple wasn't a member; he was a former member. As were most of the other 16, (e.g. Gammons, Stark, Rosenthal, Heyman). Only one or two were not.

Being a member gets them access to the ballpark/press box/clubhouse. That's the point of giving them membership. Anybody who is a member for ten years gets lifetime voting privileges for the HOF. That's why he had the vote; he was a ten-year member.

I believe that there was also talk that the BBWAA needed to expand membership to get national writers to vote for the annual awards. As newspapers forbid their staff from voting for awards, there was a possibility that some cities would not have enough active members to get 2 voters for the annual awards.

It is not the Hall of Sabermetric Virtue or the Hall of Win Shares, it is the Hall of Fame

A truer sentence has never been posted. We all sometimes lose sight on this site regarding some players. I am old enough to have seen Gossage dominate for many, many years; 2 and 3 inning saves on many occasions. If you are picking an all time team, he'd have to be considered for your bullpen(not starters allowed) as he was simply one of the top 3 most dominating closers of all time.

and of course Raines is your back-up to Henderson for the leadoff spot.

[Gossage i]s in under a we're-putting-closers-in-the-Hall argument, and he's among the elite of that category. I don't want closers in there, but if any are going to be in, Gossage has to be.

I'm not sure I understand this sort of anti-closer thinking. Sure, it's very difficult to come up with objective criteria for what an elite closer (or any reliever) is -- but i think this is greatly due to the fluid nature of the position in the last sixty years or so. You can't judge Gossage by the same standards as you would judge Rivera, or as you judged Wilhelm previously. I'm not as fluent in sabermetrics as a lot, but I can't see how you can completely adjust for the shifting role of relievers within baseball culture.

But however valid you think that role is, and even though there's no good definition of what a reliever's job really is in order to evaluate it, it is impossible to say that relievers are not right at the center of the game today in a process that started in the 40s and 50s. And it's not closers' fault that baseball culture has filtered them to the end of the game to pitch a lot of one-inning "games" with a three-run lead. Bottom-line, that has been Rivera's job; Gossage's was a little different, but he did it every bit as well. At least as well as Raines did his job. Better than Morris did his.

To me, it's a shame that only four relievers are in; I think you could make a strong case for a handful more guys.

It is not the Hall of Sabermetric Virtue or the Hall of Win Shares, it is the Hall of Fame

A truer sentence has never been posted.

In addition to my post #9, Gossage sailed into the HoM despite all of that sabermetric and Win Shares stuff, while he has had to wait a long time with the BBWAA.

IOW, it's not the Hall of Conventional Statistics.