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Tuesday, May 20, 2008

ESPN: Neyer & Keri: Five MLB teams on the brink?

Or as Jonah sez..."I still prefer Rob n’ Rany‏...but Rob n’ Jonah will have to do for now.”

Rob: OK, so how about the Mariners? Seems like a long time ago, doesn’t it, that they were everybody’s favorite dark horse?

Jonah: Not mine! I didn’t like them at all at the start of the season. I wasn’t quite as optimistic about the A’s as you were in late March (kudos on that one), but I had no problem with anyone predicting a third-place finish for Seattle, even last place if the Rangers ever got their pitching together. To me, the biggest issue with the M’s was their woeful lack of secondary players. You had four stars on this team: Erik Bedard, King Felix, J.J. Putz and Ichiro, with Adrian Beltre a fifth player you could classify as very good. After that, ugly. The Bedard trade subtracted a very important bullpen arm in George Sherrill and what would have been a valuable defensive outfielder in Adam Jones.

In fact, for all the wailing about the M’s offensive problems, it’s been their inability to catch the ball that’s been their most consistent problem over the past couple of years. They turn fewer balls in play into outs than just about any team in baseball. Raul Ibanez resembles a mummified Boog Powell in left field, and plenty of others on the roster have defensive reputations that far exceed their actual contributions. Throw in injuries and ineffectiveness turning Putz into half the dominant force he was last year, and Ichiro, at least to date, looking like he may actually be human, and I just don’t see enough here. The Mariners don’t make the playoffs, they don’t contend for the playoffs and we see wholesale changes between now and Opening Day 2009.

Rob: I think that’s right. The M’s went to a great deal of trouble to improve their rotation, and the guys they got have been fine. But they’re still stuck with Miguel Batista and Jarrod Washburn, both of whom make good money but can’t actually pitch. And the M’s are last in the league in OBP and only figure to improve a few slots once Ichiro gets going. Fork, meet M’s.

And for those of youse home sick today (hi Mike & Paula!)..."Rob and Jonah will debate these five teams’ fortunes on ESPNews’ The HotList Tuesday at 4:10 p.m. ET.”

Repoz Posted: May 20, 2008 at 02:49 PM | 33 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralColoradoDetroitNY YankeesSan DiegoSeattleTelevision

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   1. Robert Machemer Posted: May 20, 2008 at 03:16 PM (#2787943)
a summer without contending Yankees would leave me with an empty feeling inside. I hope the Yankees don't get into the playoffs this year. But I hope it's close. And painful.
You know, I'd probably be fine with their not contending too, so long as it's painful, but I'm fine with Rob's scenario.
   2. Shooty misses Bill King Posted: May 20, 2008 at 03:19 PM (#2787955)
Man, it's dogpile on the M's week. Anything to deflect attention from the A's bellyflop this last week...
   3. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: May 20, 2008 at 03:24 PM (#2787971)
I hope the Yankees don't get into the playoffs this year. But I hope it's close. And painful.

Stay classy, Rob.

Oh, and amen.
   4. Ludwig the Indestructible Posted: May 20, 2008 at 03:32 PM (#2787992)
Didn't the M's just send down Clement and re-instate Vidro as DH?

Yankees are done, if they don't start getting some pitching out of their young horses. Thats what saved their bacon last year. Might be time for the Joba to the rotation move.
   5. Shooty misses Bill King Posted: May 20, 2008 at 03:40 PM (#2788014)
Didn't the M's just send down Clement and re-instate Vidro as DH?

Yep. They also called up Jeremy Reed. You'd think they'd DH Ibanez and let Reed play LF and improve their O and their D. You'd think.

What does Vidro have to do to get his vesting option to kick in?
   6. Alex Gordon's #1 Fan Posted: May 20, 2008 at 04:28 PM (#2788108)

What does Vidro have to do to get his vesting option to kick in?


Does it matter? Bavasi probably wants to sign him to an extension.
   7. Dan Posted: May 20, 2008 at 04:39 PM (#2788133)
Supposedly the Johjima extension was on order of ownership brass from Japan, if that's what you're referring to AG#1F. Not that I don't think Bavasi is terrible, but it's hard to pin that one on him.
   8. Duke, Duke, Duke, Duchscherer-er-er (Justin T) Posted: May 20, 2008 at 05:32 PM (#2788195)
I think he's just referring to Bavasi being dumb.
   9. jwb Posted: May 20, 2008 at 07:15 PM (#2788309)
Geoff Baker, on his blog, says it is "rumored to be either 400 at-bats, or 450 plate appearances."
   10. cardsfanboy Posted: May 20, 2008 at 07:28 PM (#2788327)
If they've got a shred of optimism left, it's due to the fact that only two National League teams have played particularly well this season,


Only two teams? really?
   11. Boots Day Posted: May 20, 2008 at 07:34 PM (#2788338)
The one thing that emboldens me about Rob declaring the Rockies dead is that he also declared the Yankee dynasty over midway through the 2000 ALDS.
   12. AJM Posted: May 20, 2008 at 07:35 PM (#2788339)
Didn't the M's just send down Clement and re-instate Vidro as DH?

Clement for Delgado!
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: May 20, 2008 at 07:40 PM (#2788355)
The one thing that emboldens me about Rob declaring the Rockies dead is that he also declared the Yankee dynasty over midway through the 2000 ALDS.


Rob has a history of declaring teams dead way before they are dead, It seems that he thinks a 7 game deficit is impossible to overcome. Heck any team is in it, if you think they have the talent if they are within 15 games. Heck I'll argue that being within 7 games back on September 1st, with the unbalanced schedule, still makes you a legitimate contender.
   14. Duke, Duke, Duke, Duchscherer-er-er (Justin T) Posted: May 20, 2008 at 07:46 PM (#2788369)
Whereas many of the rest of us have a history of expecting that big year for a young team to happen two years too soon.
   15. cardsfanboy Posted: May 20, 2008 at 07:52 PM (#2788384)
what young teams expectations are two years too soon?

The D-rays is probably on that list, although I don't think many people were predicting much out of them before 2009, the Brewers aren't particulary young right now, just a young relatively established nucleus. heck most people look at young teams and say "these guys can surprise" but rarely do I see a young team consensually predicted to win the division, usually if overpredicting young team, a person will give a nod that they finish in second place.
   16. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: May 20, 2008 at 08:29 PM (#2788466)
cfb:

Well, a lot of folks were predicting Milwaukee to "surprise" starting in 2006. And Milwaukee got a lot of nods in advance of the 2007 season.

Not saying they SHOULD have predicted any such thing. Just that it was happening.

By the way, since starting the 2007 24-10 the Brewers are 79-93. I don't seem to recall anyone winning a d*mn thing with that type of record. Not that I am venting or anything.......
   17. CFiJ Posted: May 20, 2008 at 08:35 PM (#2788479)
...and Ichiro, at least to date, looking like he may actually be human...


Ichiro career splits:
March/April - .293/.348/.395
May - .367/.414/.468

Ichiro 2008 splits:
March/April - .252/.310/.361
May - .328/.392/.403

Just a typical Ichiro slow start.

And just for kicks and giggles...

Ichiro 2004 splits:
March/April - .255/.309/.304

That said...wow, Ichiro is 34 years old already...
   18. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: May 20, 2008 at 08:38 PM (#2788490)
Yankees are done, if they don't start getting some pitching out of their young horses. Thats what saved their bacon last year. Might be time for the Joba to the rotation move.


I'd be more willing to believe the Yankees were done if someone could identify which team is certain to finish ahead of them in the wildcard standings.
   19. cardsfanboy Posted: May 20, 2008 at 08:38 PM (#2788491)
I agree that a lot of people predicted good things out of Milwaukee and a surprise, but I don't think declaring anything about this team right now is two years too early for a young team. Average age of the team is 28.1, most of the nucleus has an established performance level that should make it easy to predict, at least offensively. This should have been the year that a team this age should be good, if you are sure of your scouting and development. This isn't a particulary young inexperienced team.
   20. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: May 20, 2008 at 08:49 PM (#2788516)
cfb:

This average thing really is silly. The starting infield has three guys 25 and under. Two of the outfielders. Two of the starting pitchers. That's seven key guys. The starting third baseman is 28.

Two starting position players are over 30. One starting pitcher. And then a slew of bench guys and relievers.

Contrast that with the Cardinals branded as 'young' by Mr. Hanke. The only guy 25 or under who is starting is the catcher. Not a single starting pitcher 25 or under with Wainwright at 26. It's a bunch of guys clustered at 28 and 29.

Though I am guessing you will now trot out McClellan as some kind of "key guy".

All ages courtesy of BBREF.
   21. Sparkles Peterson Posted: May 20, 2008 at 09:16 PM (#2788608)
The Brewers have 7 guys in key roles who are in their mid 20s and still developing. They have an old bullpen, an old bench, and 4 guys in everyday roles who are on the downslope of their careers. The Cardinals have 2 guys in their mid 20s, 4 on the wrong side of 30, a less-old bullpen that should get younger as they create openings for Motte and possibly Worrell later this year, and a young bench. The Brewers are younger, sure, but this isn't night and day. You can try to tell yourself that the age of your reserves doesn't impact the team's projections, but you'd be lying to yourself. The Brewers have a lot of guys with a year or two of development remaining, but they're nothing like the Diamondbacks, who have more developing players--including a few with several years to develop into much better players--and a young supporting cast that also figures to improve.
   22. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: May 20, 2008 at 09:29 PM (#2788650)
Post 21:

I didn't bring up the Diamondbacks. I was comparing them to St. Louis and the issue of using a clumsy instrument like an average.

And by the way, I specifically stated that folks were predicting things for Milwaukee in 2006. 2-0-0-6. cfb's post in reply clear suggests he was thinking of this year. Which is not too soon at all.

But I know that the Cardinals current record has made every Redbird fan here both sensitive and aggressive a la the D'backs fans. Can't say "boo" without getting the whole hive stirred up and angry.

Or is this when you toss out some more unwarranted snark about folks not reading carefully or some such?

I am old, but I am not completely daft nor ignorant when undeserved insults are shoved in my face.
   23. cardsfanboy Posted: May 20, 2008 at 09:41 PM (#2788710)
I'm not sensitive or anything about this, I was curious about the comment in post 14

Whereas many of the rest of us have a history of expecting that big year for a young team to happen two years too soon.


and was wondering what it was directed towards. I can't imagine anyone considering the Cardinals team to be young.

about the average age thing, yes it's a joke but my point was that almost everyone of their major players, with the exception of Braun, has a couple of years experience that you can reasonably project them from. The Brewers collection of players is playing below any reasonable projection(offensively) and if that was the point of post 14 then I just don't see it. If it was directed at the Cardinals, then it's even more absurd point. I'm trying to understand what the point of post 14 was and can't find what I would consider evidence that it's accurate to anything going on this year.
   24. Kurt Posted: May 20, 2008 at 09:43 PM (#2788716)
I'd be more willing to believe the Yankees were done if someone could identify which team is certain to finish ahead of them in the wildcard standings.

I had the same question. This part really jumped out at me:

As is, a lot has to fall into place for the Yankees to make the playoffs. If it takes well more than 90 wins to get the wild card this year, I don't know if they can do it.

Doesn't that seem like a pretty enormous "if" at this point?
   25. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: May 20, 2008 at 09:46 PM (#2788730)
cfb:

Nobody asked me but I would GUESS the poster is discussing the fairly common trend around BBTF to get overly enthused about teams with young talent. And failing to appreciate the ups and downs associated with a team learning to play/win together.
   26. Sparkles Peterson Posted: May 20, 2008 at 09:57 PM (#2788788)
If we're just talking about the Rockies, I'd say the problem is less about the team learning to play/win together than a misconception of the Rockies as a team with a ton of development ahead of them. They have a couple of young pitchers with iffy control who are still in their early 20s, but for the most part their young players are either hoping to develop into serviceable reserves or injured shortstops who were probably playing above their heads last year.
   27. Kiko Sakata Posted: May 20, 2008 at 09:59 PM (#2788797)
I'd be more willing to believe the Yankees were done if someone could identify which team is certain to finish ahead of them in the wildcard standings.


Boy, no kidding. You look at the AL Central, where the White Sox are on pace to win the division with 87 wins and you have to think the wildcard's not coming from there. Then, you go to the West and with the A's having come back toward Earth and the Mariners and Rangers being, well, the Mariners and Rangers, you have to think the wildcard's not coming from there. So that leaves the wildcard coming from the East. It's WAY too early to believe that the Orioles are for real and Toronto has a knack for ending up with about 83 wins, which isn't likely to get it done. And that leaves the Rays and the Yankees. As of right now, I'd say the Rays are better, but when your main competitor is a team that's never won more than 70 games in a season in its history, yeah, it's way too early to be counting out the Yankees (unfortunately). (and, of course, I realize that there are at least half-a-dozen other teams that could realistically still win the Wild Card)
   28. cardsfanboy Posted: May 20, 2008 at 10:00 PM (#2788800)
Nobody asked me but I would GUESS the poster is discussing the fairly common trend around BBTF to get overly enthused about teams with young talent. And failing to appreciate the ups and downs associated with a team learning to play/win together.


that part I can understand, just thought it came out of leftfield in my opinion.
   29. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: May 20, 2008 at 10:00 PM (#2788804)
shortstops who were probably playing above their heads last year.

Be prepared for a fight to the death when Troy's fanbase sees THAT comment. Because OF COURSE he is FAR SUPERIOR to his peer group. It's not even close.

By the way, I like Tulo. Fine defensive player. Just the constant denigrating of Braun wore a bit thin.
   30. Jimmy P Posted: May 20, 2008 at 10:08 PM (#2788823)
Didn't the M's just send down Clement and re-instate Vidro as DH?

Well, Vidro's awesome .558 OPS puts Clement's .536 to shame! You just can't bench that .558, it needs to play! Especially since Vidro's gotten over 2 times as many at bats to prove himself.
   31. Halofan Posted: May 21, 2008 at 12:38 AM (#2789200)
I've come around on Neyer after the BBWAA debacle, but seriously - and this goes for pretty much anyone but Bill James - given a full time researcher to assist you and a good editor to soften the lumps in your prose, who here couldn't churn out the garden-variety baseball analysis of Rob's?

Neyer delivers a lot of product, fresh, on-time, occasionally spicy, but has he advanced any of this? Is he a case of the Woody Allen maxim of success just being showing up on time and meeting deadlines?
   32. Duke, Duke, Duke, Duchscherer-er-er (Justin T) Posted: May 21, 2008 at 12:48 AM (#2789205)
CFB, did you think I was flaming you or something? The Cards were definitely not in my train of thought with that comment. Harvey's pretty much has it right. There were rumblings about the Rays before last season, as you note, and as he notes, with the Brewers in '06. I also recall some well thought of Padres teams from the not too distant past, before they started to win the division with 82 wins.
   33. Colin Wyers Posted: May 21, 2008 at 01:20 AM (#2789213)
I've come around on Neyer after the BBWAA debacle, but seriously - and this goes for pretty much anyone but Bill James - given a full time researcher to assist you and a good editor to soften the lumps in your prose, who here couldn't churn out the garden-variety baseball analysis of Rob's?


On the flip side, what sabermetric analyst, working for the Worldwide Leader with an editor and a desire to have continued readership/employment, would give you substantially more "advanced" content?

Sure, Neyer doesn't write articles as in-depth analytically as, say, the guys at Hardball Times most of the time. But that's not his audience when he's writing for ESPN, particularly on Page 2 fer chrissakes. But I think you underestimate how difficult it is to present stuff that we take for granted to a less SABR-friendly audience and keep them engaged and interested.
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