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Saturday, March 06, 2010

ESPN: Neyer: These Questions 3: John Sickels

Christgau with a stopwatch…is back!

My old friend John Sickels has just published the latest edition of his annual (and indispensable) prospect book, and I thought I’d ask him a few questions about prospecting ...

Rob: I probably say this every spring, but this year’s book is your best ever. I know it’s an immense amount of work—what, more than a thousand prospect comments?—but I particularly imagined you agonizing over the letter grades. Is there any obvious difference between a Grade C prospect and a C+? (That’s a rhetorical question that you’re free to ignore.) Anyway, what struck me about the grades this year is that there are many, many more B+‘s than A-‘s ... and that there are more A hitters than A- hitters. My question is this ... Have you ever given, or been tempted to give, an A+ grade to a hitting prospect?

John: There were 1170 comments in the book this year, and I wrote about 50 more that got cut for space. Yes, I do agonize over grades frequently. One of the hardest “breaks” is the one between a C+ and a B- ... Sometimes I’ll think about those grades for days. It may seem like a small thing, but I take it very seriously.The only player I can think of that I was tempted to give an A+ to was Joe Mauer, but I decided not to do it because I’m a Twins fan and wasn’t sure I was being objective about him.

To me, an A+ would be an absolutely perfect prospect ... someone with no flaws at all. And I’ve never seen a prospect who didn’t have a flaw of some kind or some question they still needed to answer. Jason Heyward, for example, is a pure Grade A prospect but I can’t give him an A+ because he looks like he might be injury-prone, plus I’m not sure if he’s going to be a 20-homer guy or a 40-homer guy. Strasburg would be close to an A+ pitcher ... except some scouts think he might have some injury risk.

Repoz Posted: March 06, 2010 at 01:56 PM | 16 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
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   1. Walt Davis Posted: March 06, 2010 at 06:36 PM (#3473981)
Am I the only one hoping for a "these questions 3" with 3 Mustaphas 3?

But definitely not 3 doors down.
   2. bigglou115 Posted: March 06, 2010 at 07:24 PM (#3474006)
It seems like a specious argument to say that he won't give an A+ because someone might be injury prone. By their nature A-F rankings are designed to be normalized to average. So the guys who are as far above average as you can get should necesarily be A+. Aside from that saying that he won't give a guy who "might have injury problems" an A+ is patently absurd, he'd never give a pitching prospect an A+ ranking, every one of them is an injury risk.
   3. Athletic Supporter leads the nation in drifters Posted: March 06, 2010 at 08:04 PM (#3474025)
So the guys who are as far above average as you can get should necesarily be A+.

What makes you think that we have seen a prospect who is "as far above average as you can get" in the time that Sickels has been handing out grades?

Normalized to average, sure, but that doesn't mean uniform distribution, nor would such a thing be appropriate (if we take the grades as some sort of value projection).
   4. PreservedFish Posted: March 06, 2010 at 08:22 PM (#3474032)
By their nature A-F rankings are designed to be normalized to average. So the guys who are as far above average as you can get should necesarily be A+.


In my mind A+ is a grade that exists outside the curve and only applies to special cases.

If you define A+ as perfect you would want ... a guy that was hitting .350, guaranteed 40+ HR power, more walks than strikeouts, 18 years old, and off the charts defensive/athletic projection. Ken Griffey Jr is probably the closest thing to that that I remember, but, not quite.
   5. bigglou115 Posted: March 06, 2010 at 08:30 PM (#3474035)
Yeah, I see your point, I'm in law school were the grades are set to uniform distribution, so I guess I have that on the brain. I can see where that might not be appropriate here. I guess though I still get the feeling that Sickels is a little elitist in his rankings, if he's never had a hitting spect score an A+ its gotta have as much to do with him makign himself look tough on spects as anything else. If he has Heyward, and had Mauer, both in the A category despite the fact that they are both better spects by a significant amount than other A spects then there's something wrong.
   6. PreservedFish Posted: March 06, 2010 at 08:47 PM (#3474044)
If he has Heyward, and had Mauer, both in the A category despite the fact that they are both better spects by a significant amount than other A spects then there's something wrong.


I agree with that, but he'd have to drop everyone else down for it to work. Soon you'd only have to best 1% of prospects getting higher than a B, which isn't right.
   7. bigglou115 Posted: March 06, 2010 at 09:12 PM (#3474067)
I agree with that, but he'd have to drop everyone else down for it to work. Soon you'd only have to best 1% of prospects getting higher than a B, which isn't right.


I don't know... Think about pitchers, how many of those prospects grow into guys who contribute 40+ WAR (which shouldn't be that hard over a 15 year career, 3 WAR per season would more than get you there and a high level pitcher should have a few 5+ years) over the course of their career? If you start talking about the best in the game, then 1% sounds about right, it just seems to me that guys with that kind of potential (Heward and Strasburg) should be distinguished in some way. If you gave them A+ status then your assigning that status to 2% of a top 100 list. If we use the BA model and look at 30 spects per team then those players would acount for .22% of all ranked spects, or in Sickles book .17% of the players he commented on. That seems like a pretty select group to me.

But that's just opinion, and its mostly an moot argument since anybody who reads Sickles' book knows Heward and Strasburg are better than the other A spects. It just damages my perception of his integrety that he jumbles the elite spects in the typical well above average, especially in the case of Strasburg where he justifies it by saying that some scouts have injury concerns. Every pitching prospect ever is an injury risk and there will always be some scouts ready to say so, he's basically saying there will never be an A+ pitching prospect.
   8. 33Boots Posted: March 07, 2010 at 02:30 AM (#3474164)
Not sure if you get his book, but he does a top 50 hitter and pitcher list. He ends up making distinctions within the groups. And yes every pitcher is an injury risk, but perhaps (likely) Sickels is hearing that Strasburg has more than an average risk. There's a difference.

What does integrity have to do with any of this?
   9. cardsfanboy Posted: March 07, 2010 at 03:42 AM (#3474191)
how about looking at it backwards, how many prospects in the "Sickels era" have graduated to hof talent? Pujols, Mauer.....Lincecum, maybe? how were their minor league careers? did they indicate a true A+ prospect or not... as mentioned, Griffey is quite likely the only player in the past 20+ years that has equaled his elite minor league performance with his career. (maybe Mauer, but it's easy to understand the risk aversion there)
   10. TVerik, AKA Snoopy Snoopy Poop Dog Posted: March 07, 2010 at 03:47 AM (#3474194)
I'm really not sure that Griffey was able to equal his minor league performance in the bigs. He certainly came close, but I thought he'd be a no-doubter inner-circle HoF guy. And I don't think he is.
   11. DKDC Posted: March 07, 2010 at 04:07 AM (#3474200)
What about that other Seattle prospect? That 18 yo SS that put up a a 20-20, 900 OPS season in the minors up through AAA.

That's certainly an A+ Sickels wouldn't regret.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 07, 2010 at 04:08 AM (#3474201)
Would ARod not have been an A+?

#1 overall draft pick. At 18 shot through A, AA, and AAA putting up a .988 OPS, including a .948 OPS at AAA.

Edit: Coke to DKDC
   13. bigglou115 Posted: March 07, 2010 at 04:09 AM (#3474202)
Integrity was a bad work, I just meant it sounds like a cop out. But I got his book last year, not yet this year. I'm just feeling nitpicky today, I actually prefer his work to most of the BA guys.
   14. PreservedFish Posted: March 07, 2010 at 04:12 AM (#3474203)
I'm really not sure that Griffey was able to equal his minor league performance in the bigs. He certainly came close, but I thought he'd be a no-doubter inner-circle HoF guy.


Griffey reached his peak. I don't think you can call him disappointing. I mean, he could have done more, but most of that is because his health fell apart in his 30s. He cannot be called disappointing from the perspective of his debut scouting reports. You would never predict 630 HRs and 10 GGs for any prospect.
   15. PreservedFish Posted: March 07, 2010 at 04:22 AM (#3474205)
Andruw Jones could have been an A+ prospect. In 1996 he was already ranked the best prospect in the world by BA, then he hit .339/.421/.652 while rocketing up from A+ to the World Series, where he matched that OPS and looked like he was aready the best player on the field, had the "best defender since Mays" buzz, which I have not heard since, and was said to have 80+ SB ability.
   16. billyshears Posted: March 07, 2010 at 04:37 AM (#3474210)
If A+ exists as a grade, I don't think it makes sense to define it in a way so that no prospect achieves it in 15 years. At a certain point, I think you have to make a call about which prospects are historically good prospects.
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