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I like this deal from both sides. Vazquez was clearly unhappy in Arizona, and he was probably the one pitcher hurt the most by the D'backs horrible D. Nonetheless, he ate innings and pitched acceptably anyway, and I think he'll be better-than-average for the Sox. Young gives the Snakes something that they didn't have - a real CF - and while I like him I think Anderson has more upside. Anything that the D'backs get from El Duque will be a bonus.
-- MWE
In the AL, in the Cell? Not so much. But he will still strengthen that rotation even further.
It will be interesting to see if the D backs actually did cave and give up some money in the deal, despite insisting that they would not.
Hernandez? I personally think he is done. But if rest heals his shoulder some, with his delivery, he could be effective for half a season or so in the NL, where the hitters don't know him. He is getting 4.5 mil, but accordind to Cotts, he also has 2.5 mil in incentives. Does anyone know what they are? That is ALOT of incentive. 200 innings? All star selection? Cy Young? (Ha!)
Obviously Young is the prize. I have not followed him. I only know what I have read the last couple of days. I am sure others will fill in the blanks. It looks good though. I wonder if this impacts the Upton negotiations, or his eventual situation once he is signed.
Vizcaino is a nice "throw in". He made 1.3 million last year to avoid arbitration, and he had a decent season, so I think in todays market, it takes 2 million to avoid arbitration again. We'll see how they handle that.
Overall Grade for Byrnes: A, if the D Backs did not have to kick in any money. If they had to kick in money, it's still a high B.
The biggest is that it's unnecessary -- the White Sox don't need another starter when they've got five who are ready to go. Of course, this objection in part disappears if Garland or Contreras is moved in another deal, which certainly seems like a possibility. (But then we have the issue of why they need to be moved, since both are signed through '06. If they are, it better be for something good.)
The secondary problem is the loss of Young. I know the White Sox like Anderson and Owens, but I hope they have really done a qualitative assessment. Everything I read indicates that Young might be the best of the three.
The upside, of course, is a pretty sweet starting rotation: Buehrle-Garcia-Garland-Contreras-Vazquez. I assume that Cooper thinks he can fix Vazquez's homerific tendencies like he did with Contreras.
I'll be interested to see if money changes hands. El Duque + Vizcaino probably will make $6 million plus next year, so it's nice to get those liabilities off the books.
Is this letting Garland know that they won't be held hostage for an extension? (apoligies to Mr. Ubina)
Considering what Burnett, Loaiza, and Rogers signed for, Vazquez is a bargain.
The bad thing for him is that if the White Sox win fewer games in '06 (very likely regardless of what he does), people will bash him for breaking up a championship team.
If he would've stood pat, people would've said he was the Angels.
The secondary problem is the loss of Young. I know the White Sox like Anderson and Owens, but I hope they have really done a qualitative assessment. Everything I read indicates that Young might be the best of the three.
Young is the only loss in the trade. El Duque's done as a starter, Vizcaino stunk. Young could be very good, but he could also be Corey Patterson.
I want to see what Kenny does with Garland/Contreras before I fully evaluate this.
Kenny doesn't like having to compete against the open market for his starters. Considering the prices pitchers are getting paid, I don't blame him.
PONCE, Puerto Rico--Arizona Diamondbacks pitcher Javier Vazquez filed a trade demand to make it easier for his family to visit him during the baseball season.
Well, there are a lot of flights to O'Hare ...
It can't just be this, though. I mean in real cost, he most likely gave up 6 years of an inexpensive, above average outfielder, plus will be paying b/w $8-12 million for Vazquez, which I'd call open market value for that term.
If he would've stood pat, people would've said he was the Angels.
I'm certainly not advocating that KW should have stood pat.
I meant that the MSM and fans will bash him for taking risks, when dealing from strength to improve a flawed championship winner is absolutely what he should be doing. It's very possible for Chicago to play better next year (at least in terms of run differential), win fewer games, and KW will catch hell from the dummies for too much tinkering. I think that's unfair to Williams; secondarily, as a fan of off-season transactions, I want him to tinker as much as possible.
Good god, I never would have dreamed that Shapiro would allow that to happen in '06, hopefully it still won't, but it does look that way more and more each passing day.
I remember people didn't like the Vizcaino deal, because of his tendency to give up the gopher ball, and him moving to the cell. Seems like a similar case here with Vazquez. I think the Dbacks should kick some money in here to make it even..
btw where does Young play in the crowded Dback future OF?
a) The rotation is a strength, and will be for several years
b) That said, the starters outperformed expectations last year
c) The Sox offense was below par
Trading pitching prospects for Thome shows a) and c); signing Konerko shows c) (who else would have played first?); trading for Javy shows b); and trading Garland and using McCarthy (if indeed Kenny does that) will demonstrate a) and b) again. It might not work out, but I like what kenny has done so far.
BLtDH
If Upton is the real deal at SS, Drew can move over to 2b. If Upton needs to play OF, whoever is the better fielder, Upton or Young, goes to CF, the other plays a corner.
They will work it out. Young is what, 1 year away? Two at the most. Upton is two years away, maybe 3.
btw where does Young play in the crowded Dback future OF?
Center, maybe as soon as next summer. The real question is what happens to Stephen Drew and Justin Upton.
No hope for Zeringue?
* : provided he signs!
Also, can someone explain how Owens moved ahead of Young in the prospect talk? Young outperformed him in the same league while three years younger -- and, he even was better at the thing Owens is supposed to be good at (stealing bases). I realize Owens has a good atheletic background, but he has yet to hit for any power whatsoever. . .
Yo Da Man Rob.
Ugh!
1. I think Kenny's aiming to win now. So, giving up 6 years of a cheap OF 2 years from now doesn't bother him that much.
2. The Sox farm system is deep in OF prospects. Anderson, Owens, Sweeney, and I'm sure a few more will pop up.
3. The pitching market is really crazy right now. He's going for stability. Vazquez is locked in for a few more years.
When I saw the Vazquez trade, this was the first thing I thought of. Only I had Garland instead of McCarthy in my mind.
If glaus is traded, Tracy goes back to 3b. If that does not work out, maybe someday Santos will learn how to hit, and he can be moved to 3b. Otherwise, then they will have to move either Upton or Drew to 3b. Upton was playing 3b towards the end of his High School season.
These are not problems. Give me 8 good shortstops who all can hit in high school and college, and somehow, I think I could find use for them in the minors and the majors if they actually make it there.
Apparently Bruce Levine is reporting this on AM1000 in Chicago. If this happens, as a Cub fan I'm going to hang myself.
I love how people just make up stuff and then they call them rumors to make them sound like inside info.
So I'll just say Garland for Vernon Wells and leave it at that.
Good for you for continuing to believe the Orioles can make decent trades!
Why do you say that? Vazquez had the best K/9 in the D-Backs rotation by a health amount and seems to be pretty average in GB:FB.
Isn't he locked in at 2 years and $24M?
C'mon! Don't give in. Hope springs eternal; even in Baltimore.
Yeah, that's my MO alright. I'm the Midwestern levski.
At least he took a dump and then got off the #### toilet, Joel.
I think this deal is solid for both teams. AZ gets a true centerfielder in Young, a reliever to add some depth to the bullpen, and El Duque.
God knows what to expect from El Duque; at best, he'll give AZ 15 solid starts to begin the year, then he'll be pawned off to a contender.
The way I look at it, El Duque goes 9-2 in his first 15 starts, with 2.97 ERA, and Arizona trades him to the Mets for Lastings Milledge.
ESPN says the commish needs to approve the deal so CHA is getting more than $1m. Whatever it is, I doubt it's $6m, not with Vizcaino to AZ.
Solid trade for both teams. Now, if the Sox can use Garland to steal Tejada, they'd be really looking good next year. KW is really dealing
Is he supposed to be THAT good with the glove? I can see the comparison from the offensive side. I had no idea his defense was rated THAT highly.
Can anyone else corraborate that?
Rob sounds off in 3-2-1........
ESPN says the commish needs to approve the deal so CHA is getting more than $1m. Whatever it is, I doubt it's $6m, not with Vizcaino to AZ.
Well, D Backs won't save much at all in 2006, but by 2007, they have freed up ALOT of money to go chase some REAL pitching frree agents.
White Sox fans, whats the problem with Vizcaino? Does he just plain suck, or is there some problem that could be worked out with a different pitching coach and a change of scenery. (4.65 FIP last year)
Every prospect report out there says Young has top-notch defensive skills in centerfield. I haven't seen any report that didn't mention him as a potential gold glover.
Not really, the Yankees gave ALL 9 MILLION to the D Backs at the time of the trade. They have already spent that money. There is no 6 million that automatically moves along with the Vazquez contract. It's whatever Chicago was able to negotiate out of the D backs.
I'm the Midwestern levski.
Yeah, but you aren't nearly as good looking.
Re: 3Bmen down the road. Drew will start at SS in AAA this year, so Santos will probably move to 3b. If Glaus is traded, Tracy will get another chance at 3b, and depending on how he does, and how Santos does in AAA, the two might end up splitting the 3b/lf positions down the road. Jon Zeringue should've been challenging for the LF job in 2007, but he really got spooked by AA pitching last year. AZ also has Jamie D'Antona as a 3bman, but he's starting to look like a bust...
And Mike Rizzo has said that AZ has every intention of playing Upton at SS. With Young now the CFer of the future, I expect AZ to indeed keep Upton at SS (probably starting him in the Midwest league when he signs), then eventually deciding whether to move him or Drew to 2B down the road.
I am feeling better about this trade by the post.
KW has stones indeed if he pulls this off. McCarthy looks like a good one but adding three or four extra wins at shortstop (estimating from the WARP numbers) in 2006 is a huge upgrade. Good God, I hope the Indians have an ace up their sleeve.
Because of Green's no-trade, Tracy seems the obvious trade candidate, to move Green to 1B and allow Quentin to play RF, but you'd think something has to happen.
Vizcaino's slider isn't as sharp as is sometimes made out, and so he nibbles with it a lot. His fastball tops out at about 94 mph on occasion, but usually more like 91-92 and not a lot of movement. He works so slowly that PH suggested that we name him after another slow-moving disaster: Hindenberg™.
Re: Quentin. Sucks to be him, but AZ doesn't really have to do anything. He isn't even on the 40 man roster, and doesn't have to be added until NEXT fall. So AZ could start him back in AAA for a few months in 2006.
That's not ideal, really, so you'd think AZ would want to move either Green or Gonzo, once Glaus has been traded. Green can be traded to ANA, SDP, and SFG. The moment Moises Alou craps out, Shawn is a Green Giant.
Anyhow, worst case scenario, Quentin beats up on AAA pitching until the August deadline, then either Green or Gonzo gets pawned off to a team looking to upgrade for the playoff push, and Quentin gets the call up.
Having too much talent isn't really a problem.
The Sox hit 85 HR's and gave up 69 on the road.
The Sox hit 115 HR's and gave up 98 at home.
But clearly those days are over, so it is not difficult to be patient. This is not to say Byrnes will never trade a top prospect. At some point, he is likely to do that too. But I am confident that if he does, he will get proper value in return.
Quentin is right now insurance should Green or Gonzo get hurt next year. And he'll be the first man up if either one of them gets traded. He can't be happy about it, but there's nothing he can do about it either. At least he knows the Dbacks will be trying to clear a spot for him next year...
AZ definitely isn't going to give up prospects to trade Gonzo; they could just decline his 07 option.
Still, giving up Young to pick up a sixth starter seems odd. Presumably, there's something else in the works. It'll be interesting to see what that is.
Uh, no. Terrero is just fine as the 4th outfielder.
Incidentally, the Dbacks might decide to start Young in the minors (he was in AA last year) and bring up Quentin in CF next year. Quentin won't make anyone think he's the second coming of Carlos Beltran there, but he's got more speed than Shawn Green, has a strong arm and decent range. When Young has had enough beating up on AAA pitching, and Green or Gonzo are traded, Quentin can move to RF/LF to free up CF for Young.
That might be the best way to resolve the OF problem next year, assuming Glaus gets traded and Tracy gets moved to 3B, with Conor Jackson staying at 1b.
If that's true, The White Sox are close to breaking even money-wise here - El Duque is owed $4.5 Million and Vizcaino is arb-eligible and will probably get close to $2 Million. That's pretty impressive.
The Tejada rumor seems intruiging, but I'm going to leave it as a rumor for now.
My biggest fear is that McCarthy will be dealt. McCarthy might have a bit more trade value, but I'm going to go out on a limb and he'll be significantly better than Garland in 2005 and be something special for his career.
For 2006, anyway.
Right. Presumably, Vazquez' contract might be something of a burden come 2007, which is why Byrnes is happy walking away from this, but for this season, they gave up a prospect and two spare parts and got at least an average and potentially a very good starter without adding any payroll.
I like it from that perspective. The bullpen looks significantly weaker than it did a week ago, which I'm less excited about, and I'm nervous about where Kenny goes from here.
That said, Estes was probably hurt worse by the defense than Vazquez. Vazquez just had many more opportunities to be hurt.
-- MWE
Javy will get 24 m over the next two years.
Say that El Duque gets around $5m if he reaches some incentives, Vizcaino $2m in arb.
So, the Sox get to pay Javy $19m. AZ will pay around $12m for Duque, Viz, $5m cash.
So, for 06, AZ would pay exactly the same they would've paid Javy alone.
And the Sox get to pay Javy $9.5m/yr, but give up Young.
So, this trade is pretty much a push right now.
AZ COULD trade El Duque for more prospects AND come out ahead in this trade.
That's the wild card.
Who would give up prospects for El Duque? I love El Duque, for his perseverance in life as much as how fun it is to watch him pitch, but I can't see any team giving up much to get him. If AZ paid some salary, I could see the Marlins wanting El Duque as an attraction for the huge Cuban community there.
Reading Prospectus' guide (Premium, sorry) on trade demands from a few weeks ago, it says that any player that is traded under this rule (which Vazquez is) cannot become a free agent for three years - regardless of contract. So, Kenny guaranteed himself a starter for at least three years, which is the stability he craves.
C, Miguel Montero
1B, Conor Jackson
2B, Stephen Drew
SS, Justin Upton
3B, Sergio Santos
RF, Carlos Quentin
CF, Chris Young
LF, Carlos Gonzales
Vince, I didn't say AZ would get great prospects or even good ones for El Duque. I meant that, given El Duque's post-season record, his relief work against the BoSox, etc, etc, IF he looks decent or (hopefully) better than decent in August, some team will ask for him.
Marté is a loss of talent, even if his performance the last two years wasn't spectacular. Vizcaino isn't a loss to me at all. I think Bajenaru could accomplish much the same as the fifth or sixth man in the pen. I read that Arnie Muñoz is having another good season in the Dominican winter league, where he's used as a multiple-inning reliever. He, Paulino and maybe Corwin Malone (I think I read that he pitched well in the AFL) should get the first shots at replacing Marté.
I guess I agree that the bullpen has some question marks, but they're more of the variety of how close Jenks, Hermanson, Cotts and Politte can come to their 2005 performances. By age and stuff, Jenks and Cotts are the best bets. I hope Hermanson and Politte can at least be solid, with Politte having a better chance of that than Hermanson.
Gawd Dammit, Kyle.
[/eric cartman]
I wasn't accusing you of doing it, but rather the list serve you subscribe to.
Vince, I didn't say AZ would get great prospects or even good ones for El Duque.
No, but you seemed to imply that what they could get for him would be enough to have a significant impact on the evaluation of this trade. I consider that unlikely, although you never know when some seeming C- prospect turns into a really good player.
I'm sold on Cotts, but I really don't want them to ride Jenks like they did at the end of last season - he seemed to visibly wear down there at the end. I'd like some more stability there.
Politte surprised me last year, but a lot of his success came from a low BABIP, which makes me nervous.
I don't think the White Sox should take whatever Hermanson gives them in 2006 as a bonus - his back scares me.
I think Bajenaru would be a fine replacement for Vizcaino, but I'm not sold on Arnie Munoz yet.
All in all, I'd like the Sox to pick up one more bullpen arm this winter.
Really? What is his salary in year 3? Avg annual? Arbitration? That seems very odd.
OK, I think we've gotten down to it now. Not to nitpick, but you mentioned prospects. Sending him off for nearly no talent in return for not having to pay him is different.
I'm still holding out hope that Omar will offer Milledge for him in August tho.
I think there's another Met farmhand you should be interested in. Fella named Pagan...
I heard Alex Pagan has leapfrogged Lastings on the totem pole. He's now Floyd's heir apparent in LF. Minaya might even move Beltran to give Alex the chance to show his stuff in centerfield. And to think that Omar has his brother Angel in the system too.
I wonder if there are some NRI-type guys worth taking shots on. I don't know if there are any relievers left on the free-agent market. I doubt I'd like the price, given the signings this offseason.
Taken right from the article:
The club that takes on Vazquez's contract will have "Repeater Rights" to him for the 2008 season, so if they choose to they can take him to salary arbitration for that year.
Sure. The events of October 2005 prove that.
The biggest name left seems to be Julian Tavarez, but it looks like Minaya is going to give him an insane contract to ensure that he'll be a Met.
I wouldn't mind taking the approach they took a couple of off-seasons ago, which was to go rooting through the discard pile and look for the next Osuna or Gordon.
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