I'm just curious...

How long does this thread have to go before Mt Rushmore becomes part of the primate lexicon?

Hey I didn't bash <strike> Gilligan's Island </strike> Voyager, I merely noted that janeway ranks last among regular ST captains. I mean, someone has to be last.

My main problem with Voyager, and this is going to sound a little geeky but there you are, is the writers had no concept of space and time. All Star trek suffers from this, but on voyager it was particularly bad.

For example. Kes throws them 10,000 light years in a go. Later, through some use of Quantum Slipstream, Borg transwarp drive, and some kind of ridiculos slingshot, they pick up another 10,000 or so light years. But a few years after she departs, kes catches up to them in a shuttlecraft?

Or while the ship is orbit around some planet, Tom and some alien go to explore a nebula that is 100,000,000 km away. 100,000,000 km is less than the difference between the Earth and the Sun. At full impulse, which is the speed of light, it would take them about 5 minutes to get there.

Don't get me wrong. There are some good parts. Seven of nine, the doctor, seven of nine, skin tight jumpsuits for large breasted former Borg females...

Hmmm, the Mt Rushmore of "Mt Rushmore" films:

North by Northwest, Team America: World Police ...

help me out here. Does Rushmore count?

north by northwest was on TCM this morning.

Hmmm, the Mt Rushmore of "Mt Rushmore" films:

North by Northwest, Team America: World Police ...

help me out here. Does Rushmore count?

National Treasure Book of Secrets

Star Trek V: The Final Frontier

Superman II

Mars Attacks!

Hmm, not much there to commed itself.

Run D.M.C., Public Enemy, N.W.A., and Biggie

Nope, sorry. Either you're doing impact, in which case Biggie belongs nowhere near, or you're doing talent, in which case DMC has to wave goodbye. Hey, I loved 'em too, but EPMD had more talent all told (Erick Sermon, Parish, and K La Boss vs. Run, DMC, and Jay is close, but nod to the former) and I wouldn't even argue for them on the talent side. If we're really doing Rushmore-esque and combining fame and ability (so this is not my personal Rushmore), it's almost certainly PE, NWA, Tupac, Jay-Z. That's basically inarguable.

If we're really doing Rushmore-esque and combining fame and ability (so this is not my personal Rushmore), it's almost certainly PE, NWA, Tupac, Jay-Z. That's basically inarguable.

I'd actually argue for replacing PE with Run DMC, actually. Unless you're going back to DJ Kool Herc, leaving out Run DMC is like leaving off Washington, no matter how the lineups match up. PE was important and political, but holds a specific place that wouldn't have existed without Run DMC anyhow. I guess I think a Rushmore isn't FAME and ability but IMPORTANCE and ability. Run DMC really was that important, more even than PE.

I'd actually argue for replacing PE with Run DMC, actually. Unless you're going back to DJ Kool Herc, leaving out Run DMC is like leaving off Washington, no matter how the lineups match up. PE was important and political, but holds a specific place that wouldn't have existed without Run DMC anyhow. I guess I think a Rushmore isn't FAME and ability but IMPORTANCE and ability. Run DMC really was that important, more even than PE.

I agree with you re: importance vs. fame. Biggie obviously belongs on talent, and it's not like he was without influence; he was one of the keys in revitalizing NY rap and he and Puffy ushered in the "shiny suit" rap era. Run-DMC belongs in on important easily. PE has both.

I'm not entirely comfortable having Kool G Rap in with Rakim/KRS/Biggie on the solo side of things. I love him, but I still love 2Pac too and it's impossible to write a history of rap without 2Pac, far less so with Kool G.

I'd actually argue for replacing PE with Run DMC, actually. Unless you're going back to DJ Kool Herc, leaving out Run DMC is like leaving off Washington, no matter how the lineups match up. PE was important and political, but holds a specific place that wouldn't have existed without Run DMC anyhow. I guess I think a Rushmore isn't FAME and ability but IMPORTANCE and ability. Run DMC really was that important, more even than PE.

Forgiveness for the VOY swipes is at hand.

Any rap Mt Rushmore without RUN DMC is folly. I'd drop Tupac or Jay-Z before PE, but that's probably more personal taste as PE was more a phenomenon unto itself than it was a branch of rap innovator -- that's not to say they weren't influential, but I'd have a hard time naming a group that was a PE descendant... it was more multiple groups incorporating piecemeal homages.

My personal Mt Rapmore would be:

RUN DMC
Public Enemy
NWA
Snoop Dogg

I take nothing away from the Beasties, but their best work came later and trended more towards some flavor or hybrid of 'alternative' music than rap -- Paul's Boutique was their last true 'rap' album in my mind. I'm also overlooking B.I.G, Tupac, and Jay-Z based more on leaving the rap fandom than anything else... If I had to diversify by epoch, I'd take Outkast.

RUN DMC brought rap into the mainstream. PE gave it legitimacy as a musical art-form, and also did more to lay the underlying socio-political edge than anyone else. NWA was a true supergroup that also created a whole sub genre that basically took over the rap world (I realize they weren't the first, but sometimes the originators get screwed for the popularizers). I picked Snoop because 1)I still love Snoop, and 2)he's still alive, if not all that active.

I'd love to find a spot for De La Soul, 3rd Base, or any of several other trip-hop groups, but that's probably too niche.

[EDIT: BTW - and please don't let this ruin a good thread... but one thing I always held against the Beastie Boys, through no fault of their own, back in the 80s -- I had many friends whose parents would absolutely not let them own RUN DMC albums, but had a lot less issue with them buying Beastie Boys albums. It wasn't overt "these guys are black, these guys are white" -- this was coming from parents whom I've never heard utter or proclaim any direct racism... but there you have it -- RUN DMC were scary black guys from the inner city.. and while the Beasties were just down the block, they somehow weren't]

Mount Rushmore of Pork:

Jenna Jameson
Tera Patrick
Ron Jeremy
Peter North (by Northwest)

Aqua Teen Hunger Force reoccurring characters:

Ignignokt
Err
MC Pee Pants
Cybernetic Ghost of Christmas Past from the Future

Mount Rushmore of Things that Have Already Appeared on Other Primates' Mount Rushmores, But Are Also Suitable nom de plume's for My Genitalia:

Harvey Danger
Captain Kirk
The Sugarhill Gang
Moby-Dick

Moby-Dick is a masterpiece, but is there anything else that's really good? -- The Jerry Royster Experience

Honorable mentions: Minor Threat, Walleye, Pistol Pete, The Old Man's Back Again, Larry Bird, e.e. cummings

Minor Threat

I'm not really sure that's what Ian MacKaye had in mind, but with straight-edge folks, who knows?

You know what this thread reminds me of? My absolute favorite of all time, one that is sadly, sadly lost to the sands of pre-registration time (it got eviscerated in the move): "Top 10 Lists of Totally Unrelated Things"

------
Biggie obviously belongs on talent

I wasn't in the mood for this earlier, but I've got an hour to kill now: disagree. He was good, but he was considerably overrated. Quite frankly, I don't think he belongs anywhere near the same discussion as Tupac (and it's not like Tupac is my personal favorite or anything.) I didn't think so before they were killed, at the time, or since. Tupac has become overrated since his death; I think he was considerably underrated before it. Biggie was overrated and has, since his death, become close to wildly overrated.

he and Puffy ushered in the "shiny suit" rap era

This is so not a point in his favor. This is like saying 10 years from now that "Akon helped usher in the AutoTune era!" Great. Though I will say that looking back, I pine for the days when the shitty radio hip-hop was Puffy and a Jay-Z album that was just too clubby/mainstream. I do not apologize for my views on Mase. #### that mumbling ####.

I'm not entirely comfortable having Kool G Rap in with Rakim/KRS/Biggie on the solo side of things.

As you shouldn't be. Again, you can't leave off Jay-Z. I'd say Rakim/KRS/Jay-Z/Tupac, but #######, I think Snoop *has* to be there. I'm going to take the ##### way out and say that Rakim doesn't count because he's not solo. If you have only two categories, he and Eric B belong more with EPMD than KRS-1. So KRS/Snoop/Tupac/Jay-Z, I guess.
-------------
The above is all within the context of tastes and popularity amongst the general genre appreciator. Below lists are my personal taste and much more slanted to how much I like them rather than impact or everyone else's opinion, but there's some attempt to represent eras and genres. All in no order.
-------------
Group (not including 1 MC/1 DJ combos):
J5, ATCQ, EPMD, NWA (I'll get #### for J5, but from the moment I got the EP to the moment Quality Control came out over a year later, I waited, and it even blew my hopes away, tied for my #1 with Midnight Marauders. EP+QC+best 1/2 of PiN+Pre-Historik Rarities is enough.)

Group (all non-solo):
Ditto, replace EPMD with EB&R;. (If they had done more than one ####### album, I'd reluctantly replace NWA with Blackstar here.)

Solo:
Ice Cube, Murs, Talib Kweli (Mos' best album is clearly the best solo from either, but TK has more good albums), Del. I'd love to say Aceyalone because no one else would and he's really close in my mind, Biz Markie just because, and Nas just based on Illmatic and Stillmatic, but.

Two person duo (2 MC or MC/DJ or 2 DJ):
Cut Chemist/NuMark (only duo collaborations), Latyrx, EB&R;, Blackstar (I'm sure I'm forgetting 50 acts here, just blanking a bit)

DJ (part of group):
K La Boss, Cut Chemist, Hi-Tek, 9th Wonder (just to get him in somewhere, because he deserves a mention)

DJ (solo):
RJD2 (before he went all goofy), DJ Shadow, Z-Trip, Kid Koala

Producer:
The Ratatat boys (their two remix albums are freely downloadable, do yourself a favor), Dre, El-P, I guess Kanye

Underrated:
Blackalicious, Aceyalone, Hieroglyphics, Biz Markie

Overrated:
Wu Tang (good, sometimes very, wildly overrated), Puffy, Jay-Z (that's right, I said it), Outkast

Virtually zero common-man Q Factor but deserve some (even if for just one album):
Cannibal Ox, Lifesavas, Quannum MCs, Strange Fruit Project

Labels:
Def Jam, Death Row, Solesides/Quannum, Def Jux

Terrible but incredibly infectiously enjoyable:
Mike Jones, Ying Yang Twins, Daz Dillinger solo, any of ODB's crazy random ####

Side projects:
Makaveli, Blueprint, Ozomatli (first two albums), Felt (Murs & Slug, the first album is top 10 all-time)

DJ Kicks albums (I have every hip-hop one made, all legitimate, took me forever to find the NoW):
Kruder and Dorfmeister, Stereo MCs, Kid Loco, Nightmares on Wax

Name?

And if anyone wants to try an experiment: In nearly any social gathering (the other attendees would obviously need to be 25ish-40ish), sing "You, you got what I nee-eeed...." and I *guarantee* you that not only will someone's eyes light up as they sing the rest of that line, it's very likely that 3/4 of the gathering will boisterously sing the entire chorus. And chicks love that song.

Z-Trip's "Live in LA" (which is phenomenal) has a part in the middle, right after he does a 20 minute 80s megamix using just 45s, where he just says "Everybody sing along" and flips down the volume on the turntables through the chorus. The entire crowd sings at the top of their lungs. Love it. The only live show on CD moment that tops it for me is DJ Shadow live at Austin Music Hall in '99. Friends went, and somehow he ended up booked in the middle of a straight-up rave, not his crowd. The moment where he realizes this is hilarious.

"I'm gonna do my thing up here under these bright ass lights. So y'all can just...keep twirling those light sticks and we'll get started. So...you know how it is at raves, you don't have to look at me, you can get in your own space and ####...you can spin around back there, y'all can do flips over here...(pause) Or, you can just keep staring at me, whatever..."

Aceyalone

I listened to a LOT of Freestyle Fellowship back in the early/mid-nineties.

No love for Philadelphia's Goats, Mr. K?

Again, all my stuff is old, but the Terminator X and the Godfathers of Threat album was great.

Elvis, Dylan, The Beatles, and The Beach Boys.

Huckleberry Finn, The Catcher in the Rye, Catch 22, Little Big Man.

Twain, Berger, DeVries, and Barth.

(English novelist): Joyce (yeah, yeah, it's hard, but it's utterly transforming--if you spend serious time with Joyce, you deserve a knighthood or an advance degree in something--he's Einstein/Darwin of literature), Fowles, Kingsley Amis, P. G. Wodehouse.

One-shot wonder novels (not necessarily the only novel the author wrote, just out of the context of his output): The Hair of Harold Roux, Confessions of A Child of the Century (Thomas Rogers), My Search for Warren Harding, To Kill A Mockingbird,

Humor writers: Thurber, White, Perelman, Jean Shepherd.

Modern poets: Yeats (always Yeats), Eliot, Pound, Frost.

American poets: Pound, Frost, Williams, Richard Wilbur.

English Poets: Pope, Yeats, Blake, Eliot. Shakespeare's outs to hits is much too much out of sync, especially when the plays are considered. Milton, like Melville, has one huge creation that dwarfs everything else, although, he, too, had his other moments (Melville's Billy Budd, Benito Cereno, and Bartleby are also great, btw). Funny, no one mentions Henry James. The Beast in the Jungle is unforgetable, but he, like Faulkner, is someone who, having read the most affecting story, doesn't instill in me the urge to read anything else of theirs for some reason.

Big Bands: Miller, Goodman, Ellington, T. Dorsey.

Movie directors: Ford (c'mon he should be on everyone's list; if you don't know that, you don't know movies); Hawks, Hitchcock, and, oh, say, Lubitsch. Substitute Capra or Preston Sturges at will for the last.

Stars/Actors: James Stewart, Cary Grant, John Wayne, Cagney.

Best screwball comedies: Bringing Up Baby, His Girl Friday, The Lady Eve, Easy Living. Could have named four Cary Grant ones.

Other comedies (undefined): The Shop Around the Corner, North By Northwest, The Lady Vanishes, The More the Merrier.

Film Noir: Double Indemnity, Out of the Past, Sunset Boulevard, Vertigo

Detective/Mystery: The Big Sleep (Hawks's), The Maltese Falcon, Rear Window, Shadow of a Doubt.

Indefinable Comedic something or others: It's A Wonderful Life, Sullivan's Travels (tragi-screwball?), Trouble in Paradise, It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad World (epic slapstick, maybe)

Westerns: The Searchers, The Far Country, Red River, Comanche Station. Could have named four John Ford's.

Best classic detection writers: John Dickson Carr (aka Carter Dickson), Dorothy Sayers, Agatha Christie, Rex Stout. Honorable mentions: Ellery Queen, Edmund Crispin.

Best hardboiled detection (includes one spy series): Donald Hamilton (Matt Helm), John D. MacDonald (Travis McGee), Richard S. Prather (Shell Scott), Raymond Chandler (I guess).

I listened to a LOT of Freestyle Fellowship back in the early/mid-nineties.

What about Project Blowed?

I do not know "Goats".

I like most of Morty Causa's lists, except for the omission of Robert Benchley and Dashiell Hammett in Humor and Hardboiled.

It's like when you try to figure out who's the best hitter, Ruth or Williams. You gotta slice that baloney kind of thin at that point. Ross MacDonald deserved consideration, too. Benchley could out-jockey for position either Perelman or Shepherd. John Wayne, Cagney, Bogart, Cooper, and a couple of others, all going for that greasy pole for the third and fourth best star/actor. (I refuse to consider movies of the last 25 years or so for right now, just as in a historical ranking exercise, I'm not considering the last 15-20 years of baseball for right now. Let it set for now.)

What about Project Blowed?

Nah. I was already on the way out of the rap universe when I even started with FF.

The Goats


Bogart

You know how a lot of people complain about certain actors simply playing slightly different versions of themselves in most of their films? Yeah, that isn't really a new phenomenon.

It's never been new, and it applies to even those who deny it. I think it's honest to just admit that. The natural school of acting, as opposed to the method or the classical simply admit this, which I think should just go without saying: No one can play what ain't in him. Stewart once said that all of his characters were simply aspects of his own character. That's slyly self-effacing, I think. That's the actor's equivalent to director John Ford's "I like to make movies; I don't like to talk about making movies." The romantic comedy actor of Vivacious Lady, Destry, The Shop Around the Corner, the bitter protagonist of his revenge westerns, the triumphant everyman of Mr. Smith and It's A Wonderful Life, the slick rube of Anatomy of A Murder, angry nerd of No Highway, the anti-social anti-hero of Carbine Williams, and the the darkest of the dark--Scottie Ferguson in Vertigo--the tragic fall none of us can evade--which the inability to deny our expectations. That's a hell of a wide "I just play me" persona. The natural actors, I think, have won out. You can't be what you aren't. You have to start with a persona and assimilate your character through that persona. Having said this, though, Bogart, among the greats, has perhaps a narrower range, as to character and as to emotional range, but within those ranges he's USDA prime. Maltese Falcon, Treasure of Sierra Madre, African Queen, In A Lonely Place, The Caine Mutiny. As a baseball player, his career was short, and he couldn't do a whole lot, but what he did he did authentically and better than anyone.

Heh, I'm listening to that DJ Shadow set now, I had forgotten that after 20 minutes of spinning, he comes on and says "This is the first recording I ever made....for all three of you that care. Yeah, you, and that guy over there, and this guy. The rest of y'all look pissed."

Mt. Rushmore of Daft Punk songs:

"Face to Face," "Harder Better Faster Stronger," "Human After All," "Too Long / Steam Machine"

Mt. Rushmore of Paul Simon songs:

"Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes," "Hearts and Bones," "Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard," "Slip Slidin' Away"

Mt. Rushmore of Charlie Kaufman movies:

Being John Malkovich, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, Adaptation

Mt. Rushmore of current Los Angeles Dodgers:

Russell Martin, Matt Kemp, Andre Ethier, Chad Billingsley

Mt. Rushmore of Magnetic Fields songs:

"I Looked All Over Town," "I Wish I Had an Evil Twin," "The Luckiest Guy on the Lower East Side," "Yeah! Oh Yeah!"

Mt. Rushmore of high-school based TV series:

Freaks and Geeks, The OC, Veronica Mars, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (seasons 1-3), (My So-Called Life?)

Mt. Rushmore of graduates of my high school:

Joey Harrington, Michael Doleac, me, my brothers (they get one head)

Mt. Rushmore of awesome actors:

Alan Arkin, Alec Baldwin, John Lithgow, John Cusack (Patrick Warburton? Enrico Colantoni?)

Mount Rushmore of general hotness (heterosexual male category):

Zooey Deschanel, Mila Kunis, Kristen Bell, Rachel McAdams

I would break this into three: solo rappers, producers, and groups.

Groups: Public Enemy, N.W.A., Wu-Tang, Run-D.M.C.
Solo: KRS-One, Rakim, Biggie, Kool G Rap.
Producers: Dr. Dre, DJ Premier, Pete Rock, Prince Paul.

I'm very, very tempted to replace Run with the Beastie Boys.

I would think the True School/Old School should have a representative among the groups. Most likely Flash and the Furious Five.

As great as G Rap was, I don't think he was ever big enough even among heads to make a Mt. Rapmore. I wouldn't call you crazy for ranking him among the top 4 MCs ever, but I think one needs a little more popularity (n.b., not necessarily crossover appeal) to make the mountain.

Primo and Pete Rock are sort of the same school. I'd prefer to drop Pete Rock and add someone else (Marley Marl?).

No way can the Beasties replace Run-DMC. They only made two real hip-hop albums. Both great, but the first is basically an attempt to copy Run-DMC, and the 2nd had little impact in hip-hop circles. Run-DMC essentially brought in the New School singlehandedly.


Either you're doing impact, in which case Biggie belongs nowhere near

??? Biggie's major case is impact. He isn't anymore talented than 100 other MCs.

or you're doing talent, in which case DMC has to wave goodbye. Hey, I loved 'em too, but EPMD had more talent all told (Erick Sermon, Parish, and K La Boss vs. Run, DMC, and Jay is close, but nod to the former) and I wouldn't even argue for them on the talent side.

That's insane. Erick Sermon is clearly the worst rapper of the four. EPMD can't touch Run-DMC as live performers.


I'm going to take the ##### way out and say that Rakim doesn't count because he's not solo. If you have only two categories, he and Eric B belong more with EPMD than KRS-1.

Well, most of KRS's best work is under the BDP banner, even if that was usually as much a "group" as Rakim over Eric B.'s stolen beats.


If they had done more than one ####### album, I'd reluctantly replace NWA with Blackstar here.) ..... Solo: Ice Cube, Murs, Talib Kweli

Insane. Kweli is unlistenable.


DJ (part of group):
K La Boss

You know Scratch was EPMD's DJ most of the time?


I do not know "Goats".

You didn't miss much.

Albums:
Run-D.M.C., It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, Straight Outta Compton, Illmatic

Singles:
The Message, Eric B. is President, Check the Rhime, Nuthin But a 'G' Thang

Unrecognized Ahead-of-their-time Geniuses on the Mic:
Kool Moe Dee, Pharoah Monche, Mikah Nine, Siah

(I refuse to consider movies of the last 25 years or so for right now, just as in a historical ranking exercise, I'm not considering the last 15-20 years of baseball for right now. Let it set for now.)

This result of this is that virtually every movie you mentioned was made between 1940 and 1960. Reading your list I imagined that you were an era fetishist and that you must also style your clothing, speech etc accordingly.

The rule also seems a bit silly. 25 years? At least half of the members of this site would be unable to rank anything that was released during their adult lives. Does art need to collect a generation of dust before it can be analyzed?

Yes, that's one way of missing the point.

Rushmore of bad SNL cast members:

Jimmy Fallon
Tim Kazurinsky
Mary Gross
Mark McKinney

And let me just say I LOVE Mark McKinney ala Kids in the Hall. Brilliant, genius, love him. But for some reason he was just monumentally awful on SNL. I blame the writers and the fact that the rest of the Kids weren't there for creative support (sort of like most Beatles solo albums).

I really wanted to put Joe Piscopo and Horatio Sanz on there, but alas.

??? Biggie's major case is impact. He isn't anymore talented than 100 other MCs.

We may be defining impact differently. How are you defining it?

That's insane. Erick Sermon is clearly the worst rapper of the four. EPMD can't touch Run-DMC as live performers.

I'd agree that E Double is the worst MC, but not by much, and I personally like Parrish the most out of the four. I haven't seen any of them live except PMD on his own at a SXSW dayshow some years back.

Well, most of KRS's best work is under the BDP banner, even if that was usually as much a "group" as Rakim over Eric B.'s stolen beats.

Fair point on KRS, but he's got enough solo stuff that you can call him a solo act, and I think he has to be represented. My point was just that if you've only got two categories, solo and group, I think EB&R;(and any other MC/DJ duo) belong in group more than solo. I did call it the ##### way out of having to figure out which of Rakim/KRS/Tupac/Jay-Z or any of those three with Snoop is the group that best represents genre/era/public taste/personal taste. :) Just based *purely* on my own taste, they go Rakim/Tupac/Snoop/KRS/Jay-Z.

Insane. Kweli is unlistenable.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here, because it appears you find my POV as inexplicable as I find yours.

You know Scratch was EPMD's DJ most of the time?

Yeah, that was partly my throwing together the DJ(group) list without really stopping and thinking and partly because I love SB so much. I'd redo that list.

Aqua Teen Hunger Force reoccurring characters:

Ignignokt
Err
MC Pee Pants
Cybernetic Ghost of Christmas Past from the Future

MC Pee Pants is pretty irritating, and I think you group the Mooninites together rather than separate them. So:

Mooninites
Plutonians
Cybernetic Ghost
Boxy Brown

Rushmore of Mountain Goats songs:

"Going to Georgia"
"No Children"
"Onions"
"Against Pollution" (clearly the Roosevelt of the group)

Chipping in on the Rushmore of American novels thing:

I think it's pretty clear that "Finn" and "Moby Dick" are the Washington and Lincoln of this group, much as I loathe the whaling chapters of "Moby Dick". After that, I feel that one would be remiss to totally omit the Jewish renaissance of the mid-20th century, or the Lost Generation; the question is what you choose. At the risk of being eviscerated for picking someone born in Canada, my list:

"Finn", "Dick", "The Sun Also Rises", "The Adventures of Augie March".

I feel kind of crappy for leaving out anything from the last 40-odd years, including Pynchon (though I prefer "Mason & Dixon" to "Gravity's Rainbow", and I might even put "V." ahead of it), McCarthy ("Blood Meridian" being the obvious choice), DeLillo ("White Noise", probably), and a number of others.

Rushmore of Van Morrison tracks:

"Cyprus Avenue"
"Crazy Love"
"Domino"
"Almost Independence Day"

Rushmore of bad SNL cast members:

Is that "Bad while they were on SNL" or "SNL members who were/are bad"? Judging by what you about McKinney you mean the former, and if that's the case, I don't see a way, even granting differing opinions on Fallon (I always thought he was okay, overrated by some and underrated by others) that you can justify Fallon/Gross/McKinney over Hutsell/Garofalo/Elliott. And probably McKean, inside just SNL. Hell, you could reasonably argue that the Mount Rushmore of bad SNL cast members from the 93-94 and 94-95 seasons where McKinney started after KiTH wrapped up wouldn't even include him. Hutsell/Garofalo/Elliott/McKean would be justifiable. The next year he's on there, with Koechner/Walls and his last with Kattan/Oteri.

(EDIT) To be clear, Hutsell/Garofalo/Elliott/McKean is a list for both those seasons combined, I realize they weren't around together.

I'll see the Simpsons Non-Family Character Mount Rushmores and raise you a Simpsons Episodes Mount Rushmore.

Marge vs. The Monorail
A Fish Called Selma
I Love Lisa
The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show

Warner Brothers cartoons - Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, Daffy Duck, and Wile E Coyote

screw porky, he was always a wet blanket ... foghorn leghorn.

although if you were arguing impact, probably have to be Elmer Fudd.

I'll see the Simpsons Non-Family Character Mount Rushmores and raise you a Simpsons Episodes Mount Rushmore.

deep space homer
selma's choice
last exit to springfield
rosebud

Is that "Bad while they were on SNL" or "SNL members who were/are bad"? Judging by what you about McKinney you mean the former, and if that's the case, I don't see a way, even granting differing opinions on Fallon (I always thought he was okay, overrated by some and underrated by others) that you can justify Fallon/Gross/McKinney over Hutsell/Garofalo/Elliott. And probably McKean, inside just SNL. Hell, you could reasonably argue that the Mount Rushmore of bad SNL cast members from the 93-94 and 94-95 seasons where McKinney started after KiTH wrapped up wouldn't even include him. Hutsell/Garofalo/Elliott/McKean would be justifiable. The next year he's on there, with Koechner/Walls and his last with Kattan/Oteri.

(EDIT) To be clear, Hutsell/Garofalo/Elliott/McKean is a list for both those seasons combined, I realize they weren't around together.

I considered all of these variables, and I still feel iffy about my selection. SNL had enough bad cast members over the years for at least two Rushmores.

I haven't seen the episodes that any of these people were on in quite some time, so I'm really going by what stands out from memory. My opinion has always been that the period from '80-ca.'86 was the worst in the show's history, and the worst from that period were Gross & Kazurinsky. Agreed that the period of Hutsell/Elliot/McKean was wretched also; let's not forget Siobhan Fallon and Laura Kightlinger. Some of the hacks on there right now are pretty bad too, like the Good Burger kid, but I couldn't tell you most of their names. I wish Comedy Central was still rerunning SNL so I could compare. It's tough to choose.

I'll see the Simpsons Non-Family Character Mount Rushmores and raise you a Simpsons Episodes Mount Rushmore.



deep space homer
selma's choice
last exit to springfield
rosebud

Good choice here. I say:

Homer Goes to College
Last Exit to Springfield
Rosebud
Boy-Scoutz n the Hood

Harry, E! reruns SNL, in case you didn't know.

As for Kightlinger: I was 14 or 15 when she was on, she had been a talented standup and I had a thing for her, so I abstained. Also, she was never anything but a featured player. She never actually became a full cast member before she left.

My opinion has always been that the period from '80-ca.'86 was the worst in the show's history,

It was, though the focus would be on those seasons without even Eddie around. Reading something just now, I see the following people all auditioned for the '80-'81 season: John Goodman, Catherine O'Hara, Paul Reubens, and Jim Carrey. If you had added those four to Eddie Murphy, you'd have had an outside chance to surpass the original crew. Goodman would have been perfect filling the Hartman/Ferrell everyman mold and could have been just as good as either, and Catherine O'Hara would have been the greatest female cast member in SNL history not named Jane Curtin, and perhaps even better. Carrey and Reubens add dark humor, physical comedy, and zaniness while being capable comedic actors. Seriously, taken as a group working together, that five would have been ferocious.

are pretty bad too, like the Good Burger kid

Keenan Thompson is great, I think. He's just underused. And I'm glad they finally put Seth Meyers where he belongs. When he joined in 2001, some time during that season or the early next, I said to a friend that he'd be the next Jimmy Fallon, except actually really funny. Hard to believe he was a feature player for 3 years. Harder to believe he's been on it for 8 already.

My own director Mount Rushmore:

Lang, Hitchcock, Welles, Renoir

Four of the fathers of four of the best national cinemas, each with his own insanely worthwhile ouevre and tons of important and obvious bloodlines to be drawn from their works. I really wanted to get Keaton, Tati, or Sturges on here but to me it is clear that not accounting for personal taste it is hard to do better other than MAYBE putting Griffith or Ozu.

Video Game Athlete Mount Rushmore:

Super Bo, the Pole Vaulter in Atari's "Decathlon", Ken Griffey Jr., and 2005 MVP Baseball legend Zach Grienke.

The Pole Vaulter's a sleeper pick, but anyone who has played the game knows that he is capable of vaulting insane record-shattering heights with relative ease. Keep setting that bar higher and he'll keep making it over! Grienke was the bane of any online player, his 54 MPH curveball almost unhittable even when you knew your friend was about to throw it and there was no lag. Fortunately, nobody ever got enough hits with the Royals offense to sustain Grienke past the 9th or 10th frame, and then you could win by punishing whatever reliever they went to!

Mount Rushmore of Simpsons catch phrases:

D'oh,
hruhrmmg [Marge's murmur-grumble],
Exxxcellent,
If anybody wants me, I'll be in my room

Three Stooges with Curley:

Three Little Pigskins,
Hoi Polloi,
A Pain in the Pullman,
The Sitter Downers ("I got Stetson. Which one is she?")

Best Simpsons Songs:

The Garbage Man Can,
The Stonecutters Song,
Union Strike Folk Song,
I'm Checking In

D'oh,
hruhrmmg [Marge's murmur-grumble],
Exxxcellent,
If anybody wants me, I'll be in my room
HAH-ha!

The Garbage Man Can,
The Stonecutters Song,
Union Strike Folk Song,
I'm Checking In

I believe you forgot the Monorail Song.

There are a lot of 'em. But, yeah, the monorail song is great, as is Apu's Kwik-E Mart song, or the Maisson Derriere number.

And a serious fourth catch phrase should probably be Nelson's Hah-ha or Flanders's "Okely Dokely".

Art-Rock/Prog-Rock Rushmores! (five each this time):

Genesis: The Musical Box, Supper's Ready, Firth Of Fifth, Los Endos, Duchess
Yes: I've Seen All Good People, Starship Trooper, Roundabout, Close To The Edge, Going For The One
King Crimson: 21st Century Schizoid Man, Epitaph, Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part II, Starless, Frame By Frame
ELP: Take A Pebble, Tarkus, Trilogy, Karn Evil 9, Hoedown
Can: Yoo Doo Right, Mushroom, Halleluwah, Vitamin C, Future Days
Roxy Music: Virginia Plain, Editions Of You, In Every Dream Home A Heartache, The Thrill Of It All, More Than This
Brian Eno: Baby's On Fire, St. Elmo's Fire, The Great Pretender, King's Lead Hat, 2/2
Pink Floyd: Astronomy Domine, Echoes, Us And Them, Dogs, Another Brick In The Wall Pt. 2
Velvet Underground: Femme Fatale, Heroin, White Light/White Heat, Pale Blue Eyes, Rock & Roll
David Bowie: Changes, Suffragette City, TVC-15, "Heroes," Fashion
Wire: Reuters, Fragile, Outdoor Miner, The 15th, Map Ref. 41N 93W
My Bloody Valentine: You Made Me Realise, Only Shallow, Sometimes, Blown A Wish, Soon
Magazine: Shot By Both Sides, The Light Pours Out Of Me, Definitive Gaze, A Song From Under The Floorboards, Because You're Frightened
Peter Gabriel: Solsbury Hill, Family Snapshot, Biko, Red Rain, Come Talk To Me

Humor writers: Thurber, White, Perelman, Jean Shepherd.

I would add Stephen Leacock, but I cant figger out who to throw out


1950s Saturday morning TV shows

Mighty Mouse

Lone Ranger

Heckle & Jeckle

Tales of Texas Rangers

(no, I NEVER watched Howdy Doody)

What about the brothel song?

or the Dr. Zeus song

I would add Stephen Leacock, but I cant figger out who to throw out

Yeah, again, gotta slice it thin. Clarence Day's Life With Father and Life With Mother are pretty doggone brilliant, too. Max Shulman was hilarious, I remember.

My understanding on the Catherine O'Hara thing is that she actually signed on to join SNL (this was after Jean Doumanian got fired and Dick Ebersol took a few weeks off to revamp things), but Michael O'Donoughue scared the crap out of her, so she quit.

Since I just checked the thread out today, one geeky complaint from the last page:

Babylon 5 Characters: Garibaldi, Londo, Marcus, Emperor Cartagia

What? Ivanova is God, Ivanova is always right. I think that qualifies her for Mt. Rushmore. Seriously, one thing that was both good and bad about the last Bab 5 epsiode was seeing Claudia Christian and realizing just how much I had missed her in Season 5.

My list: Garibaldi, Ivanova, Delenn, Londo (or maybe make 1 face half Londo, half G'Kar)

Question for Morty: How does Wodehouse make British novelists but not humor? You just didn't want to double count people?

A couple of mine that no one will care about:

Male Country Singers: Jimmie Rodgers, Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson

Female Country Singers: Patsy Cline, Dolly Parton, Tammy Wynette, Loretta Lynn

Much as I'd like to put Emmylou Harris on there, she doesn't really fit. So next best thing:

Emmylou Harris Songs: Love Hurts, Boulder to Birmingham, Easy From Now On, Born to Run

Johnny Cash Songs: Ring of Fire, Folsom Prison Blues, I Walk The Line, A Boy Named Sue

Velvet Underground: Femme Fatale, Heroin, White Light/White Heat, Pale Blue Eyes, Rock & Roll

I love Femme Fatale, but I wouldn't want to leave off Venus in Furs.

Homer Goes to College
Last Exit to Springfield
Rosebud
Boy-Scoutz n the Hood

Or:

Springfield
The Last Temptation of Homer
Cape Feare
The Boy Who Knew Too Much

Seriously, that 5th season was just one of the greatest in television history, so many stone cold classics.

i like Jane a lot, but above Gilda Radner? That's just crazy talk.

I would hope the Venn diagrams of Jay-Z fans and Radner fans overlap so I blaspheme in fewer eyes, but I doubt it: Radner is overrated. She was good, and with SNL's poor track record with women (Garofalo wasn't all wrong about that), she's still clearly top 3, and I could maybe buy her above Fey, though head writer is a big thing. Of course, they wrote a lot of #### those years, too. Curtin is a clear #1 to me.

A good case could be made for the "brothel song", which I referred to as the Maison Derriere song. Dr. Zaius is great, and it's a Troy McClure thing so that makes it special.

Okay, Mount Rushmore of Troy McClure intros: "Hi, I'm Troy McClure. You might remember me from...."

such driver's ed films as "Alice's Adventures through the Windshield Glass" and "The Decapitation of Larry Leadfoot."

such self help tapes as 'Smoke yourself thin' and 'Get confidence, Stupid!

such films as "The Greatest Story Ever Hulaed" and "They Came to Burgle Carnegie Hall"

such educational films as "Lead Paint: Delicious But Deadly," and "Here Comes the Metric System!"

Mount Rushmore of comic strips:

Al Capp's Lil Abner

Walt Kelly's Pogo

Johnny Hart's BC

Schultz's Peanuts

For the last two, to appreciate the selection you'll have to go back to their early days. Sorry.

Morty, do you have more posts in this thread than the entire 5 years you had been registered previously? :) By your member # and the velocity here, I thought you must be another regular futzing about with their handle, but I see you only have 149 posts total. Glad to see a longtime lurker decloak.

Not DVD, no...I should grab those.

Incidentally:

Mt Rushmore of Teevee contributors

Phil, Rywalt, Boychuk, you know...I assumed you'd make it when I started rattling these off, but you had that long stretch where you wrote like 3 a year, and Snell and Lutz were pumping them out the whole while. So apologies, no offense intended, but I'm going with Jason.

Art-Rock/Prog-Rock Rushmores! (five each this time):

Renaissance: Ashes Are Burning, Mother Russia, Scheherazade, Can You Hear Me?, Song For All Seasons

Porcupine Tree [see post #412]: Radioactive Toy, Stars Die, Even Less, Blackest Eyes, Arriving Somewhere But Not Here


South Park episodes:

Cartman Gets an Anal Probe
The Return of the Fellowship of the Ring to the Two Towers
Scott Tenorman Must Die
Gnomes

Morty, do you have more posts in this thread than the entire 5 years you had been registered previously? :) By your member # and the velocity here, I thought you must be another regular futzing about with their handle, but I see you only have 149 posts total. Glad to see a longtime lurker decloak.

No, I haven't been posting a lot recently. I think a year or so I engaged someone in some legal points on some subject or other. I forget. I don't think I've ever posted under any other name, unless it was my real one for a while at the beginning, which I think you can easily unearth by going to the email address. I've mostly lurk, but every once in a while I de-lurk for a while. I've always enjoyed lurking here these last five years (did you say?). Y'all are an intelligent bunch, all in all, diverse and humorous, and I have been a serious fan for years, so I enjoy both when you are on point and off course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0VjijxYVuM

Now that is an appreciation in song. Love the way he sings that "No one can throw the ball liiike...Catfish can!"

Good opening day of spring training song.

Mount Rushmore of comic strips:

Deep Six BC for Calvin & Hobbes; BC may have been good in its heyday but Johnny Hart's politics completely ruined it for me in the more recent epoch. Watterson unlike almost all other comic artists knew to quit when he was ahead. Honorable Mention for The Far Side.

Art-Rock/Prog-Rock Rushmores! (five each this time):

FAIL. RULES, people, rules!


Brian Eno: Baby's On Fire, St. Elmo's Fire, The Great Pretender, King's Lead Hat, 2/2

Does this mean John Parr was always the brains behind Eno? I KNEW it!


I'm sticking with people for Mount ComicStripmore:

Winsor McKay, Walt Kelly, Charles Schultz, Garry Trudeau

Mount Rushmore of comic strips:

The Far Side
Bloom County
Calvin & Hobbes
The Family Circus*

*only because it afforded my friends and I endless hours of entertainment inventing horribly inappopriate captions to replace the conservative, family-oriented originals ...

I like Lassus' rule, even though I have broken it. Only people should be allowed. Or at least objects. One must be able visualize the 4 nominees actually carved in stone on a mountainside

Rushmore of 50s sex symbols

Marilyn
Jayne
Bardot

umm ummm

Van Doren?

I'm very confused at some of the lists for American writers.

Twain/Hemingway/Faulkner/Poe seems fairly straightforward. Most people not having Faulkner and Poe on their lists seems odd to me. In terms of impact and legacy, how can you have someone like Pynchon on that list?

I'll see the Simpsons Non-Family Character Mount Rushmores and raise you a Simpsons Episodes Mount Rushmore.

Hmmm, this is hard, I'll go with these four now.

Homer at the Bat
Homer and Apu
Homie the Clown
Cape Feare

BC may have been good in its heyday but Johnny Hart's politics completely ruined it for me in the more recent epoch.

I haven't kept up with BC since about 1970.

The Far Side was a great strip.

Trudeau. Yeah, how could I forget?

I've tried to avoid this kind of judgment and I'll begrudgingly sacrifice any of my others (Herriman I don't think had the following of Kelly, Andy would know better); but if you leave McCay or his work (Little Nemo) off, you're basically invalidating the monument.

Leaving off Larsen is painful, and Waterson as well, but it has to be done. Neither of them exist without the importance, popularity, quality, or fame of who I listed.

Simpsons episodes that were funny and also had an emotional resonance, like:

Bart the shoplifter
Homer is visited by his mom the first time
maggie speaks
Lisa finds a mentor in her substitute teacher (Dustin Hoffman)

Four consecutive presidents were the best? Really? And what is great about Truman? Yeah, he dropped the bomb, but he wrote the Truman Doctrine, a philosophy that lead to needless and unjustified involvement in Korea and later Vietnam. And Ike? He of the McCarthism and Korea War involvement? Put up Reagan and Clinton.

agreed, I can't see how anyone could put up Kennedy, he didn't do anything as president, for the most part. As a democrat I would go FDR, Truman, Reagan and Clinton, but as mentioned earlier there is no way you would have a 3-1 Demo split, I agree with removing Truman and putting up Ike.

Any Simpsons songs Mount Rushmore has to start with "See My Vest."

But you're breaking my heart.

No, you're breaking MY heart by quoting my moronic misspellings before I could edit them.

"See My Vest."

made of real gorilla chest
see my sweater nothing's better
than authentic Irish setter

I sing this all the time. I also used to, when I waited tables and bartended, sing songs to the tune about what I was doing at the time, for no apparent reason.

"Here's a...drink there's a drink
gotta think to clean the sink
what's that order holy ####
oh I remembered it"

off the top of my head, just like I did then, pretty representative. Bizarre. And it was to the tune of the Simpsons song, because I saw B&B;once and didn't care for it.

As a democrat I would go FDR, Truman, Reagan and Clinton

I would hope an earthquake reduces Reagan to dust the day the monument opened. I'd sooner have Nixon.

EDIT: That was off the top of my head, so maybe not, but ugh, Reagan. I'd have to do more research.

I've tried to avoid this kind of judgment and I'll begrudgingly sacrifice any of my others (Harriman I don't think had the following of Kelly, Andy would know better); but if you leave McKay or his work (Little Nemo) off, you're basically invalidating the monument.

Well, as Bill James has said, a list, a ranking, should have some surprises. For me, I guess the pop music group rankings exemplify my standards. Elvis, Dylan, the Beatles, and the Beach Boys. There has to have been both historical significance and continuing lasting aesthetic quality. Thus, in the case of writers, Twain, definitely. Hemingway? I just can't name someone I would probably never read again, someone who is no longer esthetically fresh. Same with Faulkner (now, Faulkner the screenwriter--just kidding: he was not much more than a mediocre competent screenwriter, owes his place there to a sugar daddy, one Howard Hawks). Joyce is still bigger than his audience. He has still not been fully assimilated. He still has the capacity to further transform the culture.

I like Lassus' rule, even though I have broken it. Only people should be allowed. Or at least objects. One must be able visualize the 4 nominees actually carved in stone on a mountainside

Many here have pretty much gone beyond that for their own purposes in pursuit of some point or other.

Mt. Rushmore of 60-something British actors:

Ben Kingsley, Brian Cox, Ian McKellen, Jeremy Irons

Any Simpsons songs Mount Rushmore has to start with "See My Vest."

Yes, I am abashed. I completely forgot and it definitely belongs. Something would have to go to make room for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsFHEK_o9U8

Unfortunately, as happens periodically, right now youtube doesn't have the animation.

Ugh. I hate Gil. We get it, Simpsons writers. It's a Glengarry Glen Ross reference. It was mildly funny the first time you did it. It hasn't been funny since.

I think they realized that, I thought they killed him off.

Well, as Bill James has said, a list, a ranking, should have some surprises. For me, I guess the pop music group rankings exemplify my standards. Elvis, Dylan, the Beatles, and the Beach Boys.

I like that list, although I think the Beach Boys are misplaced, but that's neither hear or there. The point is, even if you would switch out the Wilsons and their boys, you would not EVER switch out the Beatles. My contention is that's McCay's place in the comic strip monument.

(As a side note, a list or ranking can have some surprises, but a monument shouldn't, unless the surprise is simply someone you never knew about who belongs anyhow.)

Phil four times.

I actually thought about that, you know.

If you still talk to him, feel free to tell him that he is my in my favorite ten writers. Not internet, writer period. I always hoped he'd fall into writing something like Douglas Coupland has been doing, like jPods. I always think of Phil whenever I read anything by Coupland, and also Klosterman. Anyway, it'd be fantastic. If you do mention it, please say my #1 is Ko. ;)

Hmm...since we've basically recreated Top 10 Lists of Totally Unrelated Things but with actual debates, let me see. Off the top of my head, my favorite writers, any medium, no order: Douglas Adams, Phil Michaels, Hemingway, Phil Dick, Klosterman, Hunter S., Tom Boswell, Bill Watterson, Norm McDonald, Twain. That's good enough.

Well, as Bill James has said, a list, a ranking, should have some surprises. For me, I guess the pop music group rankings exemplify my standards. Elvis, Dylan, the Beatles, and the Beach Boys. There has to have been both historical significance and continuing lasting aesthetic quality. Thus, in the case of writers, Twain, definitely. Hemingway? I just can't name someone I would probably never read again, someone who is no longer esthetically fresh. Same with Faulkner (now, Faulkner the screenwriter--just kidding: he was not much more than a mediocre competent screenwriter, owes his place there to a sugar daddy, one Howard Hawks). Joyce is still bigger than his audience. He has still not been fully assimilated. He still has the capacity to further transform the culture.

I didn't really look at your lists very much when you listed Joyce and Yeats as English.

Pretty much invalidates your lists.

Man, rereading that list makes me look much more everyman than I tend to think of myself as.

Man, rereading that list makes me look much more everyman than I tend to think of myself as.

Heh. Isn't that always the ####### worst? Stupid self-image vs. reality!

agreed, I can't see how anyone could put up Kennedy, he didn't do anything as president, for the most part.

I agree with this, with caveat. This Camelot aura stuff always put me off. I always thought he was more glitter than gold. But,

first, he was only president slightly less than three. Not really much of a defense, I know, but,

Second, the Cuban Missile Crisis. That showed something. The way he worked with his team was simply masterful. They had a goal and an approach, and they always kept in mind that they knew the Russians had to back down or else, but to prevent the back down from causing that "or else", they were careful to allow the Soviets to save face as much as possible. Need I say that there are still many, the administration that just exited, who simply can't countenance fine points like that, who have to force issues, who get joy out of rubbing it in, and the country, ends up paying for their lack of finesse and appreciation of human nature and geopolitical shuck and jiving.

Third, and granted this could hardly intentional on Kennedy's part, but LBJ was able to do what he did domestically with Civil Rights only because of JFK's assassination and that instant myth. Remember the line from The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence: "This is the west, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." LBJ ably made use of the mythos instantly created by the assasination, but there had to be real belief, if not substance, there. So, now, I find myself defending him.

That's the extent of my defense, though, and I realize it's not enough.

Man, rereading that list makes me look much more everyman than I tend to think of myself as.

I had a similar reaction when I figured out my top 10 films of the year. It really wasn't film nerdy at all, even though I am go-to film nerd among my friends

> I like that list, although I think the Beach Boys are misplaced, but that's neither hear or there.

Just to explain the selection. First, they are great; and they were seminal. The West Coast souund was basically their creation, and it was important and historic. The Beach Boys were just as radical and different as the Beatles--not as galvanizing, but then what was? But, all those guys I chose represnt a change in the musical ecology, one in which certain organisms were able to come to the fore. We need to be reminded about this about the Beach Boys.

I didn't really look at your lists very much when you listed Joyce and Yeats as English.

Pretty much invalidates your lists.

Well, you know when I went to school, they were taught in English classes, and all compendiums like Norton's Anthology and Major British Writers listed them, but like I said before, we're all being pretty arbitrary and capricious to some extent when it comes to slicing that baloney. So if it violates some sacred principle of yours, fine. On the other hand, if you're just being hypertechnical to pretty much no purpose... well, I stand by selections for the reasons stated. Just like I would stand by selecting Swift, Wilde, Conrad and Shaw, to name just a few, as "English" writers. "English" use to be a much broader term than the way some use it now.

Now, Mount Rushmore of MLB franchises: Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Dodgers (Cubs? Cardinals? Rockies?)

Take off the Red Sox, replace with the A's, and take off the Giants and replace with the Cardinals. I don't see how anyone could include the Red Sox in that list. I mean there isn't any real difference between the Red Sox and the White Sox as far as history goes.

Well, you know when I went to school, they were taught in English classes, and all compendiums like Norton's Anthology and Major British Writers listed them, but like I said before, we're all being pretty arbitrary and capricious to some extent when it comes to slicing that baloney. So if it violates some sacred principle of yours, fine. On the other hand, if you're just being hypertechnical to pretty much no purpose... well, I stand by selections for the reasons stated. Just like I would stand by selecting Swift, Wilde, and Shaw, to name a few, as "English" writers. "English" use to be a much broader term than the way some use it now.

I'm not being hypertechnical. They're not English in any way shape or form. They're Irish.

One of Yeats' most famous poems, "An Irish Airman Forsees his Death" was all about how the Irish didn't consider themselves British.

You can't really call them English in any way shape or form. It'd be like calling Gabriel Garcia Marquez an important Spanish writer. Or calling Pablo Neruda an important Spanish poet.

I explained myself, did you read it, as opposed to just cut and paste? I made an argument, and I'll content myself with resting on centuries of tradition and custom. If you don't like that, I'll try to live and push on.

Steubing was already on my list. Miller I should have had. Kirk -- blech. Picard -- sure. But those last two were gonna set off a ST nerdfest ... which happened anyway.

I consider Janeway to be by far the best Captain ever depicted on Star Trek, such and underrated character in my opinion.

Do you consider Rushdie, Naipaul etc "English" writers also?

Babylon 5 Characters: Garibaldi, Londo, Marcus, Emperor Cartagia

Seriously? Marcus? What is people's obsession with Marcus? He's a goober and was only on for part of the show anyway.

Any list like this absolutely MUST contain both Londo and G'Kar. They are the heart and soul of the entire show. You can't really justify leaving off Garibaldi either. Which makes the only real question which minor character you like the most and want to include.

For me, it has to be Vir. I think you could make a strong case for Morden, too. And you wouldn't go wrong to include Ivanova, of course.

Second, the Cuban Missile Crisis. That showed something. The way he worked with his team was simply masterful. They had a goal and an approach, and they always kept in mind that they knew the Russians had to back down or else, but to prevent the back down from causing that "or else", they were careful to allow the Soviets to save face as much as possible. Need I say that there are still many, the administration that just exited, who simply can't countenance fine points like that, who have to force issues, who get joy out of rubbing it in, and the country, ends up paying for their lack of finesse and appreciation of human nature and geopolitical shuck and jiving.

It was Kennedy, and only Kennedy, who brought us to the brink of war there. I don't give him extra credit for not actually taking us to war.

He was the one that made a big deal out of the installations in Cuba. The Soviets (quite rightly) pointed out that we had lots of missiles as close if not closer to their border, and they never threatened war when we put those in. In any case, technology was rapidly making those missiles moot - we both could easily destroy each other many times over anyway, missiles in Cuba or no. Not to mention that his bellicosity pretty much ended any chance of rapprochement with the Soviets for the next twenty years at least.

There was only one reason for him to respond the way he did - because he would look bad if he didn't. He was prepared to sacrifice millions of lives so he could get re-elected in 1964. I'm not prepared to call that a triumph.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Yeats+English+literature&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYA

Do you consider Rushdie, Naipaul etc "English" writers also?

What did I say?

Hey I didn't bash Gilligan's Island Voyager, I merely noted that janeway ranks last among regular ST captains. I mean, someone has to be last.

My main problem with Voyager, and this is going to sound a little geeky but there you are, is the writers had no concept of space and time. All Star trek suffers from this, but on voyager it was particularly bad.

For example. Kes throws them 10,000 light years in a go. Later, through some use of Quantum Slipstream, Borg transwarp drive, and some kind of ridiculos slingshot, they pick up another 10,000 or so light years. But a few years after she departs, kes catches up to them in a shuttlecraft?

Or while the ship is orbit around some planet, Tom and some alien go to explore a nebula that is 100,000,000 km away. 100,000,000 km is less than the difference between the Earth and the Sun. At full impulse, which is the speed of light, it would take them about 5 minutes to get there.

Don't get me wrong. There are some good parts. Seven of nine, the doctor, seven of nine, skin tight jumpsuits for large breasted former Borg females...

I thought that Voyager was the best of the Star Trek shows, but agree about the concept of time problem. (and yes the Kes thing bothered me) My number one problem with Voyager was that everyone was 'perfect', instead of continuing the trend of Deep Space Nine where all the main characters had flaws (at first). Outside of Tom, it was hard to believe that anyone of the characters had a flaw or tough life that would force half of them to oppose Star Fleet. But outside of that, the show was more enjoyable than the next generation, had the feel of the original if it was done with todays budgets and technology.

What did I say?

Did you address them or any other post-colonial English-speaking authors? I missed it if you did. Nor was I able to glean any rule of thumb from your above posts that would necessarily include them.

It was Kennedy, and only Kennedy, who brought us to the brink of war there. I don't give him extra credit for not actually taking us to war.

He was the one that made a big deal out of the installations in Cuba.

Do you think he had a choice, a viable political choice? Had he not made a big deal out of it, what you think the upshot would have been?

There was only one reason for him to respond the way he did - because he would look bad if he didn't. He was prepared to sacrifice millions of lives so he could get re-elected in 1964. I'm not prepared to call that a triumph.

Who do you see at the time as doing differently? Barry Goldwater? LBJ? Who?

I consider Janeway to be by far the best Captain ever depicted on Star Trek, such and underrated character in my opinion.

Where zonk? He has a new best friend!

As a sci-fi nerd, I'm completely embarrassed to admit that I completely and utterly missed the entire Babylon 5 experience. It makes no sense to me why I would have, either. AHA! Research wins. It was on cable, and those were thin years of no cable for me. I may have a new DVD project.

I listed them as English authors because that's what they are, and have been considered to be for years. As have Dylan Thomas and Samuel Beckett and many many others. That they can be something else, too, is not something I would deny. Why are you so stiff-necked about this? Are you able to understand the point that I and tons and tons of academicians have made for years and years?