Some people actually voted Jeff Kent - Greatest Giant?

My vote would go to Bench.

Morgan's announcing career probably dragged him down. Last night Miller was talking about some 90 year-old viewer who watched the Sunday night game every week but couldn't stay up for the whole thing. Morgan thought the old-timer could make it til the last out when the game was on the west-coast...

I don't think it's Morgan's announcing career, I think that it's because he was a teammate of Rose and Bench, who are both obviously ahead of him, so people start voting for others from different eras before the third-best Red on the BRM.

And as for Kent - that's obviously Dodger fans trying to mess with us. What I want to know is why did Marichal rank so low. You'd think he'd be way ahead of Ott.

While Joe Morgan is clearly the best of all of these players, it's also plain that 8 years on the Reds do not make up for Johnny B's 17 years of value.

And while one can argue that Rose's total career value passes Bench, it's pretty hard to see it that way if you take out Pete's years spent with other teams. Bench shoulda been the clear choice.

Bench. Duh. Greatest Major League catcher ever. Played his entire career with the Reds. Nuf sed.

Best player who spent any substantial time on the Reds? Joe Morgan. Best hitter? Frank Robinson.

Most value AS a Cincinnati Red? Johnny Freakin' Bench. And it ain't even close.

Oh, and Bucky Walters a close second. (WFT?)

I would have reckoned Rose would at least lost some popularity due to betting on baseball.

Or is it the hansie cronje effect where 'He may be a cheating scumbag but he's our cheating scumbag godddamn it!

He may be a cheating scumbag but he's our cheating scumbag godddamn it!

Might help if Rose dies in a plane crash under slightly mysterious circumstances

Jim Fregosi isn't even listed as an Angel possibility.
Just another sign that ESPN doesn't get Halo baseball.

I would have reckoned Rose would at least lost some popularity due to betting on baseball.

Rose is still wildly popular in Cincinnati. I was at a game a couple of weeks ago. Rose was sitting a few rows behind home plate. He wasn't there for a promotion or anything, he was just watching a game, wearing a hat and sunglasses. People were buzzing about him as more and more noticed him as the game went on. At some point, maybe just before the 4th inning, the jumbotron caught him and the whole place errupted in applause. He stood up and gave a little wave and the roar got louder.

Right now, the guy who put him away for tax evasion is running for Ohio Attorney general. He'll probably lose anyway for a number of reasons, but I can't shake the notion that if his opponent pointed this out to everyone, all of southwestern Ohio would swing in his favor.

Morgan was with the Reds "long enough" and played for them at a level very few ever have for any team, and I would have picked him myself. But, it's perfectly reasonable to weigh time with the team more and choose Rose or Bench. Bucky Walters is pretty amusing. Was there seriously a campaign?

So far, other than Joe Carter, the picks have been just fine.

Jim Fregosi isn't even listed as an Angel possibility.

Neither is Rod Carew...

It's a single-choice poll, which means if there's a clear #1 choice (Bench), not that many other people are going to get votes.

Bench had considerably more defensive value that Morgan did. It's Bench, and it's not particularly close.

Taking defense, baserunning and the positional advantage into consideration, am I crazy for thinking Barry Larkin's Reds career was more valuable than Pete Rose's? The guy is just criminally underrated... will be a shame to see him get Trammelled when he's HOF eligible.

Good:

Nah. Rose was in the lineup MUCH more often and that alone gives up the edge. Barry rarely got to 150 games a year while Pete was clocking 160 games every season for what seemed like forever.

I'm glad someone posted this, I saw them discuss this feature last night for the first time as I learned that Garrett ####### Anderson was voted the greatest Angel. Really? That's just insane to me when Tim Salmon played with him for almost their entire careers while being better every step of the way.

So far, other than Joe Carter, the picks have been just fine.

That one was truly terrible. Joe Carter did mean a lot to the Jays franchise, but he should have been behind Stieb, Key, Alomar, Delgado, Fernandez, Bell, Henke (depending on how you weight relievers), possibly McGriff (since he's no longer really identified as a Jay) and possibly White (depending on how defence is ranked). Personally, I'd slot him in after Henke.

Carter was a very important part of the WS teams, but he won this poll solely on the strength of the WS HR.

Taking defense, baserunning and the positional advantage into consideration, am I crazy for thinking Barry Larkin's Reds career was more valuable than Pete Rose's?

I think Larkin tops Rose pretty easily. I might even take Larkin over Bench.

I really liked Kal Daniels as a kid.

Rose is still wildly popular in Cincinnati. I was at a game a couple of weeks ago. Rose was sitting a few rows behind home plate. He wasn't there for a promotion or anything, he was just watching a game, wearing a hat and sunglasses.

For some reason, I thought his ban extended to attending games.

Did anybody see who the best Ray was?

For some reason, I thought his ban extended to attending games.

There should be a picture of Rose at every turnstile with "Do not admit this man" under his face.

Did anybody see who the best Ray was?

DiPerna voted for DiPerna.

Just kidding Ray.

There should be a picture of Rose at every turnstile with "Do not admit this man" under his face.

Perhaps it should read "For 15 years, this man did not admit".

There should be a picture of Rose at every turnstile with "Do not admit this man" under his face.

Why do you think he was wearing a hat and sunglasses?

Also.. Bucky Walters beats Frank Robinson? WTF?

The results for the Royals is no huge surprise

Who is the all-time greatest player in Royals history?

84.9% George Brett (1973-1993)
8.8% Jeff Montgomery (1988-1999)
1.4% Bret Saberhagen (1984-1991)
1.3% Mike Sweeney (1995-2007)
1.2% Frank White (1973-1990)
0.7% Willie Wilson (1976-1990)
0.6% Dan Quisenberry (1979-1988)
0.6% Hal McRae (1973-1987)
0.3% Amos Otis (1970-1983)
0.2% Dennis Leonard (1974-1986)

Total Votes: 35,839

On doing quick math, Brett beat Monty by around 27K votes. And there were apparently a few of people whose main exposure to the Royals came when Montgomery was the closer (fans from 1992 to 1997, from when Brett was on his way out to when Montgomery started to suck)

There should be a picture of Rose at every turnstile with "Do not admit this man" under his face.

Picture of Garvey maybe . . .

Seriously, I have no problem with Rose being banned from holding a job in the game and participating in its pagentry. I will also sleep well if he never sees the Hall of Fame in his natural life because last I checked enshrinement there is not an inalienable right.

But really, do the man's offenses warrant so secure a ban and campaign of shame? The guy was a gambler and a liar and a tax cheat, but he brought a hell of a lot of joy to a hell of a lot of people too. I was happy to see him at that game.

It sounds like Rose has MLB extra innings (based on his claims of watching several games in a day). Are we going to bar him from subscribing to MLB extra innings?

Bench had considerably more defensive value that Morgan did. It's Bench, and it's not particularly close.

Nah. DCW beat me to it, but it could well be Barry Larkin. Larkin is criminally underrated.

It sounds like Rose has MLB extra innings (based on his claims of watching several games in a day). Are we going to bar him from subscribing to MLB extra innings?

You bet!

That one was truly terrible. Joe Carter did mean a lot to the Jays franchise, but he should have been behind Stieb, Key, Alomar, Delgado, Fernandez, Bell, Henke (depending on how you weight relievers), possibly McGriff (since he's no longer really identified as a Jay) and possibly White (depending on how defence is ranked). Personally, I'd slot him in after Henke.

Carter was a very important part of the WS teams, but he won this poll solely on the strength of the WS HR.

No love for Kelly Gruber???????????????

No love for Kelly Gruber???????????????

I've always been partial to Wayne Nordhagen.

I've always been partial to Wayne Nordhagen.

Didn't he spend about 20 games with the '83/'84 Cubs and hit something like NOTHING?

There should be a picture of Rose at every turnstile with "Do not admit this man" under his face.

Picture of Garvey maybe . . .

No no no. That sign says, "Do not allow this man to enter..."

FWIW, WARP has Larkin and Bench almost exactly tied.

Incidentally, HTF did Tony Fernandez post a .427 OBP at 37? And why did he bolt for Japan that year?

Doesn't he have a decent argument for the HoF?

I could look that up, but that's 1 minute of my life I won't get back.

Pete played 2722 games for the Reds, 2505 of when he was a regular All-Star, MVP candidate.

Barry played 2180 as a Red and the last four years of his career weren't so hot.

I think Barry is a Hall of Famer and loved to watch him play. But I am hard pressed to understand how any level of defense and baserunning offset someone playing several hundred fewer games. That is a real difference.

I think Barry is a Hall of Famer and loved to watch him play. But I am hard pressed to understand how any level of defense and baserunning offset someone playing several hundred fewer games. That is a real difference.

Barry was a damn good shortstop. Rose played all over, but spent the bulk of his career as a corner outfielder. When/If Larkin is snubbed for the HOF, will he be the best position player left out?

Reds, OPS+ and PAs: (3000+)
Cnt Player OPS+ PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+-----+----+----+
1 Frank Robinson 150 6409 1956 1965
2 Joe Morgan 147 4973 1972 1979
3 George Foster 140 5010 1971 1981
4 Eric Davis 137 3819 1984 1996
5 Edd Roush 135 5965 1916 1931
6 John Reilly 132 4660 1883 1891
7 Adam Dunn 130 4562 2001 2008
8 Heinie Groh 130 5159 1913 1921
9 Ted Kluszewski 128 5404 1947 1957
10 Jake Beckley 128 3824 1897 1903
11 Tony Perez 127 7630 1964 1986
12 Johnny Bench 126 8669 1967 1983
13 Ernie Lombardi 126 4286 1932 1941
14 Bug Holliday 125 4036 1889 1898
15 Pete Rose 124 12325 1963 1986
16 Ken Griffey 123 4716 1973 1990
17 Lee May 123 3069 1965 1971
18 Ken Griffey 122 3904 2000 2008
19 Frank McCormick 120 5202 1934 1945
20 Vada Pinson 119 6850 1958 1968
21 Reggie Sanders 118 3292 1991 1998
22 Ival Goodman 118 4020 1935 1942
23 Mike Mitchell 118 3550 1907 1912
24 Barry Larkin 116 9057 1986 2004
25 Dan Driessen 115 5487 1973 1984
+----+-----------------+----+-----+----+----+

Yes that really is Roses' PAs with JUST the Reds.
Rose has 3000 more PAs and a 124 to 116 OPS+ advantage
Larkin does have a positional advantage- but half of Rose's time with the Reds was at 2B and 3B-
and similarly, there is no way Larkin beats Bench, juts no way.
Plus then there's FRobbie and Little Joe, lacking PAs, but peaking higher...

Larkin does have a positional advantage- but half of Rose's time with the Reds was at 2B and 3B-

Where he was pretty bad defensively.

I would've guessed Edd Roush's two careers as an NBA ref would've given him a little more notoriety.

Good:

I KNOW Barry was a good shortstop.

WHEN HE WAS ON THE FIELD. How can a guy contribute when he's sitting on the bench or in the clubhouse? He can't.

And Pete wasn't Todd Walker at second base. He got moved because Tommy Helms showed up. Helms was a better defensive second baseman.

Pete was also a decent third baseman. He held onto the ball, made the throws and started more double plays than the number of errors committed.

Look, my head is about to explode writing in DEFENSE of Rose but these mischaracterizations have to be addressed.

Rose was a butcher at 3b. I remember in my youth asking, rhetorically, if he had bet on the other team.

Just off the top of my head, and I'm obviously not a Red fan...

1. Johnny Bench
2. Frank Robinson
3. Pete Rose
4. Joe Morgan
5. Edd Roush
6. Barry Larkin
7. Tony Perez
8. Eric Davis
9. Bucky Walters
10. Paul Derringer

That just leaves off Ken Griffey Sr., Vada Pinson, Dave Concepcion, Ernie Lombardi, Adam Dunn, Heinie Groh and Jake Beckley among others. Lots and lots of good Reds to choose from.

gb:

He was about the same as Bill Madlock.

The obvious comparison is say a Ryan Braun or before that Bobby Bonilla. Rose was well ahead of those players who merit the title of "butcher".

Feel free to review the available info and reconcile with personal impressions.

And no, I am NOT stating that Rose was anything like a Gold Glove type or any such nonsense. But he held his own and was not an obvious hole in the defense. He just wasn't.

84.9% George Brett (1973-1993)
8.8% Jeff Montgomery (1988-1999)
1.4% Bret Saberhagen (1984-1991)
1.3% Mike Sweeney (1995-2007)
1.2% Frank White (1973-1990)
0.7% Willie Wilson (1976-1990)
0.6% Dan Quisenberry (1979-1988)
0.6% Hal McRae (1973-1987)
0.3% Amos Otis (1970-1983)
0.2% Dennis Leonard (1974-1986)

It's Quisenberry by a mile if you are in the RBI Baseball world.

Incidentally, HTF did Tony Fernandez post a .427 OBP at 37? And why did he bolt for Japan that year?

Doesn't he have a decent argument for the HoF?

Well from looking at B-ref it looks like the last season he played mainly at SS was 1995.

He spent the following years mixing time at 2B and 3B (as well as DH!) and in the 1999 season played all his games at 3B or DH except for one.

Plus his range factor after to me at least seems to decline compared to league average.

Plus his offense overall apart from 1998 and '99 does not seem particularly special, and those lose their luster when you take into account he wasn't playing SS anymore.

I KNOW Barry was a good shortstop.

WHEN HE WAS ON THE FIELD. How can a guy contribute when he's sitting on the bench or in the clubhouse? He can't.

That comment made me curious, so I went to bb-ref and looked up Larkin's career.

And Harvey wasn't exaggerating. Take out Larkin's rookie year when he came up in August, and for the next 18 year he averaged only 118 games. That's almost unfathomable for a player of his caliber. Was he freakishly brittle or just freakishly unlucky?

By Dan Rosenheck's WARP2, Larkin has a 85.3 WARP2 compared to Rose's 73.4 with the Reds. Despite playing less, Larkin was almost as good a hitter, while adding an incredible amount of value fielding and baserunning, and playing a much more challenging position. None of the numbers look especially off to me, so I think even given Rose's superior health Larkin had the greater career, by a sizable margin.

Morgan, by the way, earned 64.7 WARP2 despite only being on the team for 8 years. He was teh awesome, and I could certainly see someone who values peak considering him the greatest Red ever. I think I still would have voted for Bench.

And Harvey wasn't exaggerating. Take out Larkin's rookie year when he came up in August, and for the next 18 year he averaged only 118 games. That's almost unfathomable for a player of his caliber. Was he freakishly brittle or just freakishly unlucky?

Larkin was just brittle to my memory. One of those guys who was always nursing an injury or two, but I don't recall him having more than his share of odd or bad luck injuries. A Larry Walker type. It's somewhat amazing to me that he amassed over 9000 PAs missing all those games.

I'm surprised Junior isn't even an option in the poll. Clearly he didn't have his greatest years in Cincy, and I'm not even saying he should be close to the top of the poll, but if you take the "best player who spent time with the Reds" perspective, Griffey needs to be taken into consideration.

Larkin was just brittle to my memory. One of those guys who was always nursing an injury or two, but I don't recall him having more than his share of odd or bad luck injuries.


Larkin had his hand broken when he was was hit by a pitch on Opening Day 1987 and missed a significant amount of the season. He was hitting .340ish at the All-Star Break in 1989 when he blew out his throwing elbow during the skills competition before the game. Later in his career he always seemed to be just brittle, but, those two injuries were bad luck. Also, he played full seasons during the strike years of 94-95, however, the games played those two seasons are obviously low.

if you take the "best player who spent time with the Reds" perspective, Griffey needs to be taken into consideration.

I don't think ESPN wants to encourage that perspective, and I don't think they should. The greatest Red should only be determined by value added to the Reds. Babe Ruth is not the greatest Brave and Greg Maddux is not the greatest Dodger.

if you take the "best player who spent time with the Reds" perspective, Griffey needs to be taken into consideration.

As does Christy Mathewson.

if you take the "best player who spent time with the Reds" perspective, Griffey needs to be taken into consideration.

As does Christy Mathewson.

and Tom Seaver

As does Christy Mathewson.

and Tom Seaver

and Eric Davis

There's a very meaningful distinction, though, between choosing Joe Morgan for the Reds -- for whom he played more than any other team, and for whom he had his best years -- and choosing Seaver for the Reds, Ruth for the Braves, etc.

It's Bench. He's an incredible assh*le, but it's him all the way.

As does Christy Mathewson.

and Tom Seaver


and Eric Davis

and Amos Rusie.

Didn't Blue Jays fans vote Tom Cheek as the greatest Jay a couple of years ago? A friggin' announcer?!?!?! Oh wait, nevermind. That was just some forum vote. Sorry.

Didn't Blue Jays fans vote Tom Cheek as the greatest Jay a couple of years ago? A friggin' announcer?!?!?! Oh wait, nevermind. That was just some forum vote. Sorry.

Well, he had been with the team since day 1, and had recently died due to a brain tumour. He was also an incredibly popular guy in the community. Really, if he were voted the greatest Jay, I doubt there would be too many fans who would be bothered.

Did anybody see who the best Ray was?

I'm curious to see who was the best Ray myself; I voted for all-time great Aubrey Huff.

Edit - Double post

I'm curious to see who was the best Ray myself; I voted for all-time great Aubrey Huff.

Carl Crawford, the only reasonable choice.

From 1988-99, the heart of Larkins' career, for every 162 games the Reds played, Larkin played 133. That's adjusting for the strike & even the 1-game playoff in '99.

Barry was a damn good shortstop. Rose played all over, but spent the bulk of his career as a corner outfielder.

As a Red, Rose played:

LF 635 games
3B 629 games
2B 627 games
RF 556 games
1B 197 games
CF 73 games

Less than half his Reds career came at corner.

No love for Kelly Gruber???????????????

This really should have been posted by someone named Cathy. No, wait, Kathie.

I'm fascinated by some of the people who also received votes. On the Padre list, Tony Gwynn obviously ran away with it. But some people actually voted for Garry Templeton? Really? Eric Show? Greg Vaughn? I know the Padres have a short, fairly undistinguished history, but Vaughn was only on the team for three years!

This really should have been posted by someone named Cathy. No, wait, Kathie.

Go Jay. Go Jays Go! Good luck with your big bats!

Highest peak value as a Red: Morgan
Best Hitter who was a Red: Robinson
Best player who was with Reds beginning to end:
1. Bench
2. Larkin

Rose gets honorable mention for being high in all categories as a Red.