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2010: .417/.462/.667 (13 PA)
2009: ---
2008: .303/.408/.503 (206 PA)
2007: .303/.403/.488 (290 PA)
2006: .355/.469/.659 (277 PA)
Career: .316/.423/.583
Just for laffs, Manny's career numbers in Comiskey Park, where he did not bat against the Yankees while the Dodgers slowly deliberated over what they wanted to do:
.338/.448/.601 (261 PA)
If he's potentially worth that much to the CHW, it's a travesty that the Dodgers got nothing for him. What's predictably ending badly is the McCourts' ownership of the Dodgers.
1) Is this known for sure? I've still seen nothing official on any of this.
2) Even if they do get no players in return, $4.3 million in salary relief at this late date is nothing to sneeze at.
That was delightful.
They could have gotten an entire season of Jim Thome for < $1.5 million.
Yes, given the operating expenses of a team. And if they make the playoffs he pays for himself.
This is the whole point, isn't it? If I saved $4.3 million in upkeep on an asset that my employer couldn't use by giving it to another company that can use it, that would generally be considered a "win-win" scenario.
From a baseball standpoint, for a team ostensibly fighting for a playoff spot, under normal circumstances that would be worth some kind of a prospect in return. If the CHW felt the Dodgers were "dithering" while it was costing them runs, maybe they should have offered something of value for him.
From what I understand, the White Sox did offer something of value - 3B prospect Jon Gilmore. Bear in mind that the White Sox were not able to offer any of their best prospects for Ramirez - those guys would have to clear waivers in order to be traded, which would not be possible. (And that's setting aside the question of whether five weeks of Manny Ramirez is worth a top prospect, which is dubious at best).
Nobody gets value-for-value on a waiver-wire trade. The mechanics of a waiver-wire trade don't allow it. Coletti couldn't reasonably expect more than what was offered. If the Dodgers weren't going to play Ramirez over the weekend, the question is, what were they waiting for?
Sure they do. The $4.3 million was guaranteed to be paid - it was a sunk cost. Now they are relieved of the cost. Just like if your credit card company forgives a portion of your debt, that is considered income.
Given the way the team has been run, I don't really expect the $4.3 million to benefit the team - it'll probably just be a bigger number of funds available for one of the McCourts to either loot or receive in a settlement.
I was wondering what Jermaine Dye is doing right now.
No, this isn't accurate at all. Not at all.
This is equivalent to me returning a flat panel tv to the store, and having $1000 taken off of my credit card bill. This is not debt forgiveness at all.
After watching Jermaine Dye attempt to play baseball at the end of last year, I'd hesitate to throw him into a lineup at this point. He looked completely finished, and judging by the amount of interest he's gotten, I'd say I'm not the only one with that perception.
That's a mighty big If. The Dodgers are six and a half games back in the Wild Card race, which is a lot but not insurmountable. But they're in fifth place in that race, which is an awful lot of teams to climb over. They're even deader in the NL West, where they're ten games back and in fourth place.
Baseball Prospectus gives them a 2 percent chance of making the playoffs. That seems about right to me.
No, this isn't accurate at all. Not at all.
This is equivalent to me returning a flat panel tv to the store, and having $1000 taken off of my credit card bill.
The Dodgers didn't have the option of returning Manny Ramirez to the store. The White Sox, however, executed a separate transaction in which they assumed the Dodgers debt.
I believe Ray was talking about the White Sox making the playoffs.
Tom, I think Ray was speaking of the playoff chances from the White Sox perspective. Now they're not exactly in great position, but they are quite a bit more likely participants than LA.
Yeah Dye was/is done. He was probably the worst regular in all of MLB the second half of last season. I am glad KW didn't bring him back.
The Thome thing was just flippin' ridiculous. But, I think all Sox fans knew that was coming.
I see a great five-second film in that concept.
So the holdup wasn't the Dodgers after all, but Ramirez, and the Dodgers benched him so that he'd agree to leave.
I personally find Manny to be a jerk of the first order of magnitude and a team cancer.
Oh sure, he "might" get motivated and be the fabulos player he is capable of being but, inevitably, something will piss Manny off, it always does.
He will pout and underachieve, as he always does.
Manny being Manny; about as enjoyable as a prostate exam.
I just read that article, and I don't really get it. In what way did Manny show that he's pissed off? His team traded him to save some money, how did he run himself out of town? I haven't read any indication that he refused to play this week (maybe I missed it), it just seems like Torre didn't put him in the lineup. He didn't force a trade or anything, I don't get how this exit from a team is similar at all to the one he had w/ Boston.
Not a Digital Underground fan?
doesn't conform to the narrative, so it is ignored. props to gonfalon, he's said it before.
I was referring to his new team, the White Sox.
EDIT: Cokes all around.
171-- Albert Pujols
170-- Joey Votto
156-- Adrian Gonzalez
150-- Pouting, Cancerous Underachiever
142-- Cecil Fielder; Carlos Gonzalez; Ryan Zimmerman
139-- Adam Dunn; Matt Holliday; Jayson Werth; Aubrey Huff
He was a fabulous hitter for the Dodgers. That you can't understand it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
And if the steroids suspension shows anything, it shows he was TOO "motivated" to play well.
But he didn't underachieve. He had a 171 OPS+ for the Dodgers. Do you not understand how good that is?
So was your commentary.
Because he "got himself ejected on purpose." Duh.
Sounds a bit like the completely unremarkable three-pitch strikeout he had against The Greatest Closer Of All Time during his last few games with the Red Sox.
The people asserting this stuff are delusional.
But, yeah, I also noticed the media's cute "he has sat out for the Nth straight game" this week, implying that he was refusing to play. It was a management decision, because they didn't want him to get hurt before they traded him.
There's only a month left in the season, so I like the odds of him remaining un-pissed off. Actually, I'd prefer if the Sox got really hot and gave him a few more weeks with the team in October to find something he can pout about.
Manny's primed to kick some ass and help the Sox to the playoffs.
ONCE he's back for his 3-4 week vacation to refocus.
Shewt if the Sox's facilities are up to snuff, wouldn't even mind spending it on their dl.
Manny being Manny; about as enjoyable as a prostate exam.
Nobody can deny that he was spectacular for them in '08 after the trade, and I think he's going to have to hit almost that well for the White Sox for them to catch the superior Twins, who have an easier schedule the rest of the way. It's only since his pregnancy suspension that he's been underachieving, and you don't need to be a genius to figure out why that is.
But I fully second the second part. His antics ceased being amusing to me a while ago.
Well, let me see - he got off to a hot start after coming back from his suspension, then got hit on the hand by a pitch and hit poorly for a while, and then gradually started hitting better.
This year he's hit well, especially for an old player, with the problem that his legs are going. Basically, his underachieving - to the extent that you can say a still feared hitter at his age is underachieving - is tied into injuries. The hand injury obviously had nothing to do with chemicals. I suppose steroids might have helped him heal faster from the leg injuries, and helped prevent recurrences - I don't know. I don't think it's any great surprise that a 38 year old, reasonably heavy guy who has to sprint at times and often change directions while sprinting would suffer various pulls.
Future costs are not sunk costs and quite obviously if you don't have to pay it then it isn't a sunk cost. Since the Dodgers don't have to pay 4.3 million then that 4.3 million is not and was not a sunk cost.
Whoa.
That's disingenuous, though. Ramirez has only been in 66 games.
Wasn't Kotsay a centerfielder three years ago? How'd he wind up a DH?
Post-partum depression?
Not at all. Anyone who's on this board knows he's only played half a season. If it's about the season-long grind slowing one's bat, Ramirez's career OPS+ has been higher in the second half.
I don't know the answer to this question: is it uncommon for a top hitter to put up something like a 150 OPS+ in a year that they repeatedly go on the DL (three separate times in Manny's case)?
Cecil Fielder
D'oh! That was a big, round screwup. Or should I say "D'oughy!"
Yes, it is Gonfalon. The numbers show that Manny's been good when healthy, which is a perfectly legitimate point and one you could have made without inserting his name onto the actual NL Adjusted OPS+ leaderboard, where Manny's name won't be found. That's pretty much as disingenuous as it gets.
The numbers also show that Manny's been good when NOT healthy. Specifically, the 2010 numbers.
OPS+ is a rate stat, Ramirez's abridged 2010 OPS+ is all but identical to his 1993-2009 rate, and there's no real argument that his 2010 rate's been padded or distorted because of the limited time. He's hit better than almost every player in the National League + Cecil Fielder, but while losing half his year to three separate DL stints. Four NL players have a 150 OPS+ or better this season, but in too few plate appearances to qualify for the leader boards: Ramirez (232 PA), Donnie Murphy (42 PA), Jay Gibbons (27) and Raul Valdes (11). What's the ingenuous way to go-- lumping the four of them together as statistical also-rans?
Despite my underhanded cunning, you've figured out that Ryan Zimmerman's 142 was worth more this year than Manny Ramirez's 150. I think others might pull it off, too.
Inexplicable idiocy.
What injury was it that prevented him from taking extra outfield work and becoming a competent defender years ago?
Manny is a great hitter. But he never put in the work to try and make himself a complete player, and that's a shame, given the talent he had.
What? Really? REALLY?
Look, Manny is not a great fielder. But he is also not a total embarrassment, and more to the point, even if he was, what makes you think he could get better?
The fact that my grandmother would be embarrassed to field that badly?
I do buy the idea that he's not a "total embarrassment", though, insofar as I've never seen any evidence that Manny has the ability to be ashamed, despite the many shameful things he's done.
Look, even if we accept (which I don't), that he is the worst defensive outfielder in the sport, SOMEONE has to be worst, even if everyone is working to improve their defense 24 hours a day.
Add to that the fact that he's visibly superior to the "average guy" who plays in pickup softball leagues, the fact that major league teams have found him acceptable as an outfielder for the past ~15 years, and the fact that he's one of the greatest hitters of all time, and it's ridiculous to claim that he either a) doesn't put any effort into his fielding or b) is worse than your grandmother.
You're arguing irrationally.
Wow, you've really showed me and all the other folks arguing that Manny's not a great hitter the error of our ways.
You changed the actual Adjusted OPS+ leaderboard to make a point no one was disputing. But please, perhaps you can go into 6,000 additional words of snark to defend it.
Yeah. And she at least has an excuse, in that she can't lift her glove arm above shoulder height anymore.
Manny has had a long career as an outfielder because he's a good enough fielder to bring a lot of value at that position in spite of his terrible glove. That doesn't excuse him for his lack of effort in improving his defense.
Somebody had to be the worst - but it didn't have to be him. He let himself remain a terrible fielder because he didn't care enough to want to be any better. He'd rather spend extra hours looking cool hitting line drives in the batting cage than putting in the hard work needed to fix one of the actual weaknesses in his game. That's his choice, but it's not a choice I have to support or admire.
I imagine they did.
Ortiz is, as you note, a fat, lazy pile. Given that he didn't spend enough time on basic physical conditioning to keep himself from getting a ginormous beer gut, it's tough to argue that he maxed out his natural defensive abilities any more than Manny did.
Jeter was mainly a crappy defender over his career, but he put in work and improved himself in '08 and '09 once he started getting called out with advanced metrics, as has been discussed on the site at length. He pretty significantly undercuts your point, in that he did what Manny couldn't be bothered to do, and benefitted from it.
Edgar was a decent defender, but too physically brittle to take the wear-and-tear of playing baseball, so he ended up as a DH. I'm not sure what you think he proves.
And the Red Sox still have seven games to play against Manny's new team---Wonder what sort of reception he'll get in Fenway this weekend?
(*) What's the PA cutoff for showing the leaders? According to who? Regardless, Gonfalon wasn't arguing that Ramirez was one of the most valuable players in the league this year (quality + quantity); he was showing rate. Do you think Ramirez's OPS+ this year has been a fluke? I really can't understand why you're barking up this tree.
Manny was actually deceptively decent for a couple of years on Boston in the small LF; had 17 assists one year because guys kept running on him and he had a sneaky quick release and was surprisingly accurate with his throws.
Nobody here is denying that, nor did I mean to discredit that enormous acheivement in my previous post.
Here's my issue with Manny.
It's the price the team pays, both monetarily and psychologically, to have Manny act as he has these past 3 or 4 years. Manny being Manny was never an acceptable standard of behavior.
Once management allowed that behavior to occur it was all down hill.
Manny refusing to even attempt to improve his fielding ability shows his team mates that he has one foot on the dock and one foot on the boat.
Manny not hustling shows that he is handled like a star with a different set of rules.
Not helpful in building team chemistry
Am I old school about what being a good team mate is all about.
Yes.
Do I willingly accept the new self-indulgent approach that many ball players currently employ?
Not readily.
For $45M over two years I expect a better approach to self discipline and a level of caring about winning ballgames.
Getting yourself thrown out after one pitch isn't helping the Dodgers get into the playoffs.
Getting rid of this bad actor may just motivate the remaining Dodgers a bit more.
Enough to overcome 9 or so games they are behind; that's doubtful.
Maybe Ozzie can get Manny to really care again.
Lets hope so, for everyone concerned.
Something tells me you have no clue how much work he did.
Lets hope so, for everyone concerned.
And quickly. Like by 7:10 PM this Friday.
GGC simply pointed out that GB's list was disingenuous, which it was. That was the entirety of his remark. For some reason, instead of just saying "yeah, I shouldn't have listed him there," Gonfalon is going to great (and snarky) lengths to justify his incorrect OPS+ leadeboard.
We all post dumb things from time to time. Gonfalon did here. Why he can't either a) admit it was, or B) simply say nothing, is perplexing.
As for my barking, I'm done now.
Manny not hustling shows that he is handled like a star with a different set of rules.
Not helpful in building team chemistry
Where has there ever been a report that Manny has refused to attempt to become a better defender?
That actually did happen once, in 1950, when the Red Sox went on a 16-1 tear when Goodman replaced Williams in LF after Williams fractured his elbow in the All-Star game. The mindset of a certain type of writer is always there, and all it needs for perpetual replenishment is fresh fodder.
I'm a Red Sox fan, but I agree. It will be fun if Manny is launching some bombs this weekend. But besides naturally wanting the Red Sox to lose, wouldn't you (from a Yankees perspective) rather Minnesota be in the playoffs than a Manny-infused White Sox team?
No, it wasn't.
But he should have listed him there. That was his entire point: to show how good a hitter Ramirez has been this year relative to the other top hitters in the league.
Ramirez has missed a lot of games, but that doesn't change how well he's hit when he's played. Gonfalon wasn't arguing that he's the MVP - only that he's hit well.
And what the hell is an "incorrect OPS+ leaderboard"?
I fully agree, but perhaps not in the way you think.
I can't wait to see if he's going to try and enforce that on Mr. Sunshine.
!
I've seen lots and lots of articles about Manny's batting practice regimen. For example:
Bits like that are fairly common. (Here's another. And another. And another. Etc.) Manny has a custom-tailored routine and spends hours a day in the cage, and that dedication and focus has obviously paid off for him on the offensive end of things. Good for him.
I have never, however, seen any discussion of Manny doing extra fielding drills or reporting early for extra outfield practice or anything like that. You would think that if he were putting in even close to the same amount of work that he was on his hitting, someone would have noticed by now. Particularly given the built-in narrative hook - the piece practically writes itself!
No, he's not.
Yes, he is. Joey works at Dr. James Andrews' offices.
I have always enjoyed watching Ramirez hit. To me the interesting question is who signs him for 2011. I think on a one-year deal to DH with a lot of incentives he would be a great buy for contender, a la Vlad Guerrero in Texas. I could see Ramirez DHing in the 4-hole for the Angels in 2011.
Williams had all sorts of issues relating to lack of effort. Including being beat up by a teammate in the minors for not hustling.
Works as what?
That's a fair enough point, but there's also the possibility Manny realized years ago that the work he was putting into his fielding wasn't getting nearly the same magnitude of results that his work at the plate was. It could be that his lack of fielding effort is a calculated move.
Right. Even assuming arguendo that Vlad's screed is correct, presumably the extra hitting work improved Ramirez's hitting. It's plausible the ultimate effect was to increase Ramirez's overall value by increasing his value on offense more than he could have increased his value on defense.
When Ramirez was an Indains, there was much written over his years there about his trying very hard to improve his defense. As a minor leaguer, he was an atricious outfielder, but spent a great deal of time working to improve his defense. He continued in the majors to work hard to improve his defense. The 1999 STATS Inc. Scouting Notebook credits Manny for working diligently to improve his defense, even going as far to see a shrink to get over his fear of the walls. When Ramirez arrived in Boston, there were articles about him working on defense to learn to play the Green Monster.
I don't know for certain if Ramirez quit working on his defense --- as his leg problems began, he migght have just said screw it. However, when he was young, he certainly worked his ass to improve his defense.
Which is kind of what I was getting at. By all accounts, Teddy didn't really give a damn about defense.
Hmmm. In Epic Season, David Kaiser's detailed account of the 1948 AL pennant race, he claims that Williams was actually a good LF in the 40s and cared about it.
Hmmm. In Epic Season, David Kaiser's detailed account of the 1948 AL pennant race, he claims that Williams was actually a good LF in the 40s and cared about it.
I didn't get that sense when I read "The Teammates", but of course it was way after their playing careers.
[Edit note: trying to type one handed with a hamburger in the other doesn't make for coherent OPs]
yeah, i hated it when the dodgers won 2 straight division titles and pounded the cubs and the cards both years and put up a pretty good fight in the NLCS. without manny who knows what that team could have accomplished. he was a distraction. no, he was a cancer!
let's see some actual instances of that. you know, other players actually saying that, not the blowhards and idiots in the LA times.
if you don't think the mashers and other stars on a team get some slack, you don't know anything about 'team chemistry'.
now i'm beginning to understand.
again, i'd like to know how you know this is true? dodger record with manny is something like 121-84, without him it is .500.
this happened how many times exactly? this is going to sink the dodgers chances? how about casey blake turning into a pumpkin? rafael furcal breaking down? matt kemp regressing to ordinariness?
oh brother.
Can I pull a Roger and say that I misremembered?
How dare you suggest Ramirez is not evil?
Yes.
Who gives a crap what you think makes a good teammate? Unless you actually have some first hand knowledge of what kind of teammate Manny is. Which you don't. So either stop talking out of your ass, or admit that you're talking out of your ass.
I know you're a Republican, Ray, but lazy and evil aren't the same thing.
Though listening to W. bluster about the Axis of Lazy would've been amusing...
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