!@#$%^!@#$%^&!@#$%^&*

.....

Damned shame-I hate to see a promising young pitcher blow up like that-even if it's on the Yankees.

It only takes 90 minutes to do Tommy John surgery???

It only takes 90 minutes to do Tommy John surgery???

The Steve Trachsel surgery takes over 4-hours.

Never, ever, ever, ever hire Dusty Baker as your manager.

Indeed, he might pitch you almost 200 innings.

Indeed, he might pitch you almost 200 innings.

He did ride Volquez pretty hard down the stretch last year. From Aug. 12 on-

Aug. 12 - 112 pitches
Aug. 17 - 97 pitches
Aug. 23 - 103 pitches
Aug. 29 - 110 pitches
Sep. 3 - 117 pitches
Sep. 8 - 119 pitches
Sep. 13 - 121 pitches
Sep. 18 - 111 pitches
Sep. 23 - 98 pitches

The usual caveats apply - we'll never know if this workload caused Volquez's injury, and most of those starts were close ballgames. But the Reds weren't in contention, and during a time when most managers would be easing up on a young pitcher's workload, Dusty Baker stepped on the gas.

That doesn't seem too bad. 110-115 pitches seems like a pretty normal start. I don't think a handful of pitches over that is going to make much difference. He probably would have had to get Tommy John no matter who his manager was.

I don't think that game log is so bad - three straight starts around 120, but not much more - it's not like he left him in for 130, 140 pitches, then did it again the next week. 100 pitches has never been confirmed as the "break-down" number; it's just a nice, round number. I don't know Voltron's history though.

That said, I wonder why the union hasn't filed suit against Baker (and even Lasorda) and their ilk for destroying pitchers' arms and careers.

That doesn't seem too bad. 110-115 pitches seems like a pretty normal start.

Not for a 24-year-old pitcher. Like I said, most managers are easing up on their young pitchers by September, especially if the season is lost, like the 2008 Reds' season was. Baker decided to work Volquez a bit harder.

He probably would have had to get Tommy John no matter who his manager was.

This sentence seems to be a common refrain when it comes to Dusty Baker and young pitchers.

He did ride Volquez pretty hard down the stretch last year. From Aug. 12 on-

It started a lot sooner than August of last year. I remember a game in April against the Cubs from last year where a lot of us Cubs fans were already foreshadowing some of the Baker-induced "abuse."

Ligaments clog up the elbow.

Ligaments clog up the elbow.

win.

Ligaments clog up the elbow.

Yep. This is good stuff!

This is really going to hurt Edinson Volquez's ROY chances.

Volquez's numbers were fading hard in the second half. It seemed pretty apparent that he was tiring. He kept giving these interviews talking about how much he hates resting, and how he would pitch more often if he could, and I feel like Dusty Baker took that sentiment and ran with it, when the smart manager would've tried to tame his youthful enthusiasm.

I gotta say, I know there are some Baker Apologists around here, but I really don't like that guy. He's dated. He's old. His ideas have come and gone. I really don't get why he has a job anymore.

This is really going to hurt Edinson Volquez's ROY chances.

If he ends up missing all of next season, maybe by 2011 a few writers will forget he ever existed and he'll get RoY votes again. Maybe this time enough to win!

Total Pitches

Edison Volquez (2008, age 24): 3379
Javier Vasquez (2000, age 23): 3531

Vasquez' arm has been able to throw only 1800 innings in the 9 years after his abuse.

Total Pitches

Edison Volquez (2008, age 24): 3379
Javier Vasquez (2000, age 23): 3531

Vasquez' arm has been able to throw only 1800 innings in the 9 years after his abuse.

Vasquez is a very well-built man. Does Volquez have the same sort of strapping build?

It's also worth noting that Vasquez came up in an Expos system that probably didn't have the same sort of strict pitch counts and innings limits that Volquez faced in the Texas system (and yes, I'm accounting for Volquez's seemingly "proper" buildup in the Texas system).

I cannot remember who did the study, but one of the things about Edison last year that had me concerned is that he had a very high pitch per inning ratio. If you look at his outings EV was hitting 100 pitches by the fifth inning a lot of the time.

He rarely had an easy inning. Meaning a lot of pitches when fatigued in a small timeframe.

The first time this jumped out at me was when Edison threw 112 pitches in five innings so that he could get the win against the Cubs in 2008. And that happened fairly frequently.

It's why I am concerned about Yovani. He is really struggling to finish guys off and laboring withing an inning. It's disconcerting.

It only takes 90 minutes to do Tommy John surgery???

The Steve Trachsel surgery takes over 4-hours.


Victor Zambrano surgery takes 10 minutes.

Adam Eaton surgery takes 5 minutes and involves a circular saw.

He rarely had an easy inning. Meaning a lot of pitches when fatigued in a small timeframe.

It seems to me THAT'S when pitchers are most at risk of injury--not necessarily from throwing more than 100 or 110 pitches in a start or whatever (though there's obviously a cumulative effect at some point), but from throwing more pitches than usual under stress, constantly having to reach back for their best stuff to get out of trouble. I don't know how to quantify it, but I'd be interested to see the injury rates for guys who have more innings of say, 25+ pitches than other pitchers. (I'm not up on the research--has anyone compiled this stuff already?)

retro:

Agreed. And I know this has been done but can't find it anywhere.............

Adam Eaton surgery takes 5 minutes and involves a circular saw.

I think you mean Koyie Hill surgery.

"The 90-minute procedure, known as Tommy John surgery, was performed by Reds medical director Dr. Timothy Kremchek."

Wait: The Reds medical director performed the surgery? Were they too cheap to afford Dr. Andrews? TJ surgeries are not that common (outside of baseball), so I would assume that a specialist would handle the surgery, instead of the Reds medical director.

I think you mean Koyie Hill surgery.

Justin's on a roll.

I remember a game in April against the Cubs from last year where a lot of us Cubs fans were already foreshadowing some of the Baker-induced "abuse."

That's because we're all racists.

Wait: The Reds medical director performed the surgery? Were they too cheap to afford Dr. Andrews? TJ surgeries are not that common (outside of baseball), so I would assume that a specialist would handle the surgery, instead of the Reds medical director.

I think that Kremchek is actually one of the half-dozen or so doctors that regularly do Tommy John surgeries.

From an article on Baseball Prospectus:

Dr. Tim Kremchek, Medical Director of the Cincinnati Reds and one of the four doctors who do most of the Tommy John surgeries on major league pitchers...

And:

Dr. Kremchek, who does some 120 UCL replacements a year...

It doesn't mention who the other three are, at least in a quick scan. I assume one is Andrews, and is Jobe still performing them?

EDIT: Lewis Yocum is the other name that one hears a lot.

does he follow dusty team to team? i bet thatd be a nice paying gig

I gotta say, I know there are some Baker Apologists around here, but I really don't like that guy. He's dated. He's old. His ideas have come and gone. I really don't get why he has a job anymore.

So you are ready to consign him to the dustybin of history?

Has there been (or could there even be) any kind of fragging young pitchers' arms study? Dusty gets a big time rap here and is it really deserved? I'm not defending necessarily but I'd be curious to see any data.

Coletti's another one who get bagged on here. You'd think he's already traded away 2 or 3 farm systems worth of young all-stars. He hasn't done badly except for one truly egregious signing (Pierre) and one failed, but not crippling dice roll with Andruw.

What the heck was Jason Schimdt? And trading for Esteban Loaiza?

So did the Reds hire Dr. Tim Kremchek after Dusty? Seems like that's the logical order.

What the heck was Jason Schimdt? And trading for Esteban Loaiza?
Did he have to give up any draft picks for Schmidt? That's a big nut for Schmidt but he was coming off an all-star year -- was the decision that bad at the time? I remember it as being thought of as too long but that the bucks were what the market commanded.

I had forgotten about Loaiza. Coletti gave up nada in talent for him but that's a lot of money he p***ed away.

The meme is usually around trading Kemp, Loney and Kershaw for a used-up vet. Coletti hasn't done that.

And trading for Esteban Loaiza?

Wasn't Loaiza a waiver claim?

Did he have to give up any draft picks for Schmidt? That's a big nut for Schmidt but he was coming off an all-star year -- was the decision that bad at the time? I remember it as being thought of as too long but that the bucks were what the market commanded.

They gave up their first rounder, and the team signed Schimdt to that contract despite finding out he had a rotator cuff injury.

Bill Shaikin of the Times read the Dodgers' Jason Schmidt insurance lawsuit and found that the team admitted it knew Schmidt had a rotator cuff injury at the time he signed his three-year, $47 million deal.

Who the heck intentionally signs an injured pitcher to $47 million dollars? Ned Coletti, that's who.



edit:
Wasn't Loaiza a waiver claim?

Oops, yep.

Coletti's another one who get bagged on here. You'd think he's already traded away 2 or 3 farm systems worth of young all-stars. He hasn't done badly except for one truly egregious signing (Pierre) and one failed, but not crippling dice roll with Andruw.

Some of Ned's lowlights (or lowlights-in-training); not exactly damning evidence, & the first three are all from 2006, but not exactly A+ work, either:

Traded Chuck Tiffany (minors) and Edwin Jackson to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Received Danys Baez and Lance Carter.

Traded Cody Ross to the Cincinnati Reds. Received a player to be named later. The Cincinnati Reds sent Ben Kozlowski (June 1, 2006) to the Los Angeles Dodgers to complete the trade.

Traded a player to be named later, Dioner Navarro and Jae Weong Seo to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Received Toby Hall, Mark Hendrickson and cash. The Los Angeles Dodgers sent Justin Ruggiano (July 19, 2006) to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays to complete the trade.

Traded Willy Aybar, Danys Baez and cash to the Atlanta Braves. Received Wilson Betemit.

Traded Carlos Santana (minors) and Jonathan Meloan to the Cleveland Indians. Received Casey Blake and cash.

OK, OK, I haven't been paying enough attention. :) The best you can say is that he didn't trade Kemp, Loney, Ethier and Martin, Billingsley and Kershaw.

OK, OK, I haven't been paying enough attention. :) The best you can say is that he didn't trade Kemp, Loney, Ethier and Martin, Billingsley and Kershaw.

And trading for Ethier and Ramirez. Those two guys along with not selling the farm have been enough.

& don't forget this gem (in the pro Coletti column):

Traded Cesar Izturis to the Chicago Cubs. Received Greg Maddux.

Shooty, don't worry. Coletti can work his magic as the the new Giants GM next year.

Shooty, don't worry. Coletti can work his magic as the the new Giants GM next year.

Why you gotta be like that?