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Sunday, April 20, 2008
ESPN.com: Toronto releases Big Hurt after slow start
A day after getting benched and openly complaining about playing time, Blue Jays designated hitter Frank Thomas was released by Toronto, according to a report from TSN of Canada on Sunday.
On Saturday, Thomas was livid after getting benched in favor of Matt Stairs and being told by manager John Gibbons he can expect further cuts to his playing time. Thomas was hitless in his past 13 at-bats and has gone 4-for-35 since homering in three straight games April 5-8.
Frank Thomas is released in favor of Matt Stairs. Nope, still doesn’t sound right. Here’s to him bouncing back with… Seattle? Rangers?
SantoFan
Posted: April 20, 2008 at 11:30 AM | 122 comment(s)
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I'll presume the White Sox remark was a joke.
Thomas-Thome would make an incredibly effective yet slow platoon, not that either would go for it. Or Williams for that matter.
Proof positive that I should never post to the interwebs before having my morning cup of coffee. Taking Vidro's job in Seattle, yes. A return to Kenny Williams-land... not so much.
You know, my first thought on seeing the news actually was, "well, there goes Barry's chances of playing this year." Seems like a limited number of AL teams with the DH spot open, and I'm pretty sure most teams would take Big Hurt over Barry Lamar if given the PR option. Is Seattle a good landing spot for Frank? Seems like it would be.
This is interesting.
Can the Halos sign him? Can we bury Garret Anderson under the big "A"?
51. NTNgod Posted: April 19, 2008 at 08:14 PM (#2751474)
If Toronto releases Thomas, and he clears waivers, Thomas can then sign with any team, and the new team will pay only the minimum salary with Toronto responsible for the balance of the contract.
If Thomas gets enough PA to trigger the option, who pays it, since Toronto would still technically be on the hook for the contract?
52. MSI Posted: April 19, 2008 at 08:19 PM (#2751479)
Techincally, he wouldn't reach the PA threashold on THAT contract, would he? Otherwise they wouldn't be thinking of releasing him clearly.
EDIT: Is any NL team a possibility? DH in interleague games and bat 2nd a la McGwire the rest of the time?
Sounds like a huge question to me - maybe Ricciardi got some advice before pulling the trigger, but I'd love to the contract verbiage. Does MLB use standard wording for vesting options or doteams write their own? Anybody got a copy?
I don't see it as a reasonable possibility. There's only about 9 interleague games in AL parks & a lot of teams only have a 4 man bench. Thomas has no mobility at all in the field at this point.
I'd imagine there's more to this story than mere performance issues.
Yeah. Apparently yesterday refused to shake hands with teammates after a win and left without speaking to reporters.
Neither Thomas nor Ricchardi is handling this very maturally. That's especially damning for J. P. He's supposed to be the brains of the outfit.
God, I hope so.
The other possiability is Jp is a Habs fan and the Bruins put him on tilt.
The furniture, she is flying.
Which would be odd since he's from Boston.
The one thing which hasn't been mentioned yet is that Adam Lind has been tearing up Syracuse. That they had somebody ready to take Thomas' spot in the lineup probably encouraged the Jays to let Thomas go now.
EDIT: Right after I post that I find this post at Batter's Box which indicates that Lind has a sore neck so Robinson Diaz will get the call up (which probably puts Rod Barajas into the lineup full time).
Worchester <> Boston.
It sounds like Lind might be out for a few more days, which is unfortunate. Judging by John Gibbons' comments on the pregame show, Lind almost certainly will get called-up when he is healthy.
some Japanese team will sign him for sure. :)
/end sarcasm
Howard, perhaps you should review your place in our 12-person league before you write something like this. ;-)
Which is the one that's good on steak?
I'm not sure I understand this. Why would Thomas sign anywhere for the minimum salary? I mean, unless that's all he gets offered. There's no requirement that he signs for the minimum, is there? If the Mariners come calling, he can easily say, "I'll play for $2 million" and they'd have no problem paying that if they really wanted him.
His Blue Jays contract for 2008 was guaranteed, which means he's going to make it no matter what. I think if he signs elsewhere, then whatever the other team pays him reduces the Blue Jays' obligation by that exact same amount. That is, if, say, the Jays owe him $10 million and he signs with somebody for $5 million, then the Jays would owe him $5 million, etc.
So, unless somebody offers him more than what the Blue Jays were paying him, the amount that his new team pays won't affect the amount that Thomas gets.
Thomas is going to get his full 2008 salary. The Jays have to pay it if Thomas sits at home. If some other team signs him, they have to pay the fraction of Thomas's salary corresponding to the ML minimum. The Jays pay the rest.
Who are the younger guys benefitting from Thomas being cut?
Thomas, who is batting .167 with three home runs and 11 runs batted in, had gone 0-for-14 on the Blue Jays current homestand. His last crack at keeping his spot came Friday when he went 0-for-3 against a left-handed pitcher he has owned throughout his career, Kenny Rogers. Thomas is a notoriously slow starter - he hit .250 last April and a woeful .193 in May but still led the team in homers (26) and RBIs (95). But this year has been different. He made contact ... the ball just didn't go very far. And Friday night, Thomas was so hunched over in his batting stance that the Tigers radio crew - who had seen a great deal of Thomas over the years - made constant note of it. Thomas was cheating on the outside pitch, raising a veritable white flag.
He has 3 homers in 72 PA (1/24 AB). Last year, he had 8 homers in 213 PA thru the end of May, or 1 HR per 26.6 PA. I'm not seeing the big difference.
OK, that is what I didn't know. Does that only hold true in year-of-release? If the Yankees release A-Rod, they owe him for the next 10 years, but does the reduction apply for 2009 and on?
I'm sure it's happened. There are lots of middle relievers and players like that who've gotten down-ballot MVP votes. What I find more interesting is that we've now had two guys--Thomas and, last year, Ensberg--cut by their teams less than two years removed from top-four MVP finishes.
Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi told ESPN's Peter Gammons that the release of Thomas was "by mutual consent. He doesn't want to be here if he's not going to play much, and we don't want him to be unhappy. He handled it with class, and I appreciate that."
"Our best opportunity is to put other guys in the lineup at this point," Ricciardi said, according to The Associated Press. "Obviously, reduced playing time is not something that he was interested in. In order to let him go forward and get on with his career, I think it's fair to do it at this point."
"I don't know that we have the luxury of waiting two to three months for somebody to kick in because we can't let this league or this division get away from us," Ricciardi said, according to the AP.
Instead, DH Barajas can carry them to the AL East title.
Seriously. How does JP have a job?
And sending him to the minors wouldn't help, and he would be of no use as a bench player. So yes, maybe they decided the team was better off with Stairs and Shannon Stewart and Adam Lind taking Thomas's at-bats, and Stewart and Lind taking Stairs's place in the field.
Cut the stuff about how Rod Barajas is the new DH. That's not going to continue.
But Rod Barajas is apparently the DH today. If Lind can't play right now because of an injury, then the question is why not wait until then to release Thomas. It's a guaranteed contract, so cutting him today doesn't save the Jays any money. If you cut Frank Thomas and then the next day start Rod Barajas at DH, then you're saying that you think Rod Barajas is a better hitter than Frank Thomas. And that, with all due respect to J.P. Ricciardi, seems highly unlikely to me.
Also, another point besides Lind is that ROlen can probably come back early as a DH before he starts fielding from his broken finger, right?
There's also a few things in Blairs article I don't understand:
The team also saved $1-million in bonuses for being on the roster this year.
Getting rid of Thomas saves the Blue Jays the pro-rated portion of this year's $8-million salary, which is about $6.7-million.
And likely they also think his slow bat and weird stance this year signify that even when his slump ends, he will not be better than Lind/Stairs/Stewart.
My guess is the vesting option would still be in place with the new team, though it seems that could be worked around in any deal.
The biggest issue is the one raised by Kiko- why leave your team with Rod Barajas as the DH, even if it's only 5 or 6 games? Barajas is a terrible hitter and always has been.
If the Jays had traded him, his contract with the attainable $10 million vesting option would've still been valid. The Blue Jays likely would've needed to eat more salary under a trade scenario in order to get another team to bite.
1. Because of this, they don't want him to reach his 2009 option.
2. They sit him, to keep him from reaching the 2009 option.
3. Thomas complains. Threatens to take legal action
4. They release him to avoid legal issues, figuring that since they think he might be done anyways, they don't even lose much in 2008.
This seems to fit, no?
http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080420.wspt-thomas0420/GSStory/GlobeSportsBaseball/home
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3355502
So which is correct?
It sounds to me like Thomas should spend a little bit more time reading the fine print of what he signs. He really has no one to blame for himself as he possesses at least an average intelligence and is fluent in English.
1. This is a lineup that needs offensive help.
2. Thomas bat will likely have decent power and OBP, and still be an average AL DH, which would be one of the better on the team.
3. If you really really didn't want to pay the $10 million for next year, than why not ride his 300 PA and release him then? You are already paying him 9 million this year.
4. It's 2 weeks into the season. That's too small a sample size.
On the other hand, Lind and Rolen should be back soon, and Thomas MAY be done so may as well not hurt your lineup.
Also, YOUCH, maybe it means that the Jays save 1.3 million from this year. That wouldn't hurt as much...but it wouldn't make sense if they saved 6.7, though that would be really good obviously. (If it helps, the contract was 1 million guaranteed in the first year with a 9 million bonus, and 8 guaranteed this year).
I don't think the first writer realizes that.
Both are. Thomas essentially made $10 million in 2007 when you factor in the signing bonus. That, combined with his salary this year, adds up to $18 million.
On the subject of Barajas DHing, the Blue Jays are not scheduled to face another left-handed pitcher over the next six games (if ESPN's schedule is accurate). Barajas is unlikely to start any games at DH for the next little bit, although it's possible he could be used to pinch-hit for Stairs against a lefty reliever.
Edit: Disregard my comment on Thomas' contract. I may have mis-read the quote from the first article.
Thomas has had a bad record in terms of who he trusts to give him financial advice. I don't see that as a character flaw--that's not really a skill cultivated in the social strata that most Americans occupy.
1. Because of this, they don't want him to reach his 2009 option.
2. They sit him, to keep him from reaching the 2009 option.
3. Thomas complains. Threatens to take legal action
4. They release him to avoid legal issues, figuring that since they think he might be done anyways, they don't even lose much in 2008.
This seems to fit, no?
Except that if, as you say, they think he might be done, then they are sitting him not just to keep him from reaching the 2009 option, but also because he may be done, and therefore he should be benched anyway in favor of other players. The looming spectre of the 2009 option adds an extra appearance of mistrust to what might be largely a baseball decision.
Which isn't correct...
Also, I know I'm rationalizing now but I can actually see how this is a good move. I know he'd have the best OBP on the team, but he's slow, and this team already leads the majors in DP (probably).
And even if you understand the details, you still don't know what the possible range of other options should be, so what seems reasonable might not be reasonable compared to what other people are signing.
Why not make it so that single purchase monthly payment arrangement loans like home and car loans must include an exact month-by-month pay schedule with any possible changes attached. If there had been a document that said, "You will pay $600/mo and then month 13 it will go to $2200/mo" some people would have still signed into it, but most wouldn't have and wouldn't feel tricked at this point in time.
Is there any legal reason that can't be done?
That's exactly what a fixed-rate mortgage is (well, except that it doesn't go up in month 13). If you get a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage, you do know exactly what your mortgage payment is going to be every month for the next 30 years (not including escrow if that's how you pay your property taxes). At least that's how the three fixed-rate mortgages that I signed worked.
The $$$ is the key. As a Jays fan obviously I hope Blair is right and the Jays are saving $6.7 million. The Jays pre game radio broadcast reported that they were on the hook for the 08 dough.
The timing of the release is the surprise. Blair ( maybe others, he is the only Jays beat writer that I read ) speculated before the season began that he might be released before he hit his 376 PAs, vesting the 09 option.
If the Jays aren't on the hook for the 08 money won't they sign somebody? Bonds, Lofton? If they are on the hook for the money, why are they throwing in the towel so early? Especially with the Yanks early problems.
Anybody want to speculate when Burnett leaves? If they don't deal him during the season he'll get a better deal elsewhere anway.
Lind is a middling prospect in a thin organization. He won't be an everyday big leaguer. How many ABs is Stewart good for?
Unless they sign Bonds, this is disappointing. Walking away from a veteran after 18 Apirl games makes no sense.
These are two separate questions actually...
Is there any reason it can't be done? No. A contract like that would be quite permissible.
Why not make it so contracts must be spelled out like that? A general reluctance to paternalism essentially. We generally, for better for worse, assume parties understand the bargains they're entering into, and that they enter into the contracts they enter into for a good reason. If someone buys a piece of art for well above appraisers think it's worth, we don't stop them, because we give people the benefit of the doubt that they know what they're doing.
Whether paternalism is a good thing or a bad thing is a different question, hopefully not for this thread.
Right, but I think that type of transparency is especially necessary for non-fixed rate mortgages. Obviously, there's no way to know exactly how the rate will change, but it'd be relatively easy to require that certain information by given on a summary card of some kind.
Some of this was just bad luck, but a lot of it was beyond negligence and someone basically just saying, "Sure, that beer will be $3.00 plus sign this form that surely doesn't say that I'm going to punch you in the face and steal your wallet in 27 minutes."
This is why people who can afford it have someone to negotiate for them. But how do you know that person can be trusted? It's hard to know.
Lots of teams release HOF-caliber hitters coming off 125 OPS+ seasons after they struggle for a week. Plenty. So many. No reason at all to doubt what the Blue Jays tell you about their reasons for cutting him, because we know that if it were to avoid the vesting option they'd come out and say so.
Also, Pete Toms, he says right before that:
With Thomas now out of the picture, the Jays don't have to worry about potentially owing him $10 million next year or an extra $1 million in performance bonuses this season. Toronto does have to provide Thomas with his full $8 million salary for this season, though."
I'm guessing that maybe 1 million of the 9.12 mil signing bonus was part of this year? And they save that.
If that's the case, then they are really just kicking the can on 7 million, and then brining up Lind. That makes a whole lot more sense.
EDIT: I think I'm wrong on that 1 million. Cot's says;
# performance bonuses: $0.2M each for 500, 525, 550, 575 & 600 PAs
# award bonuses: $0.1M for MVP, $50,000 each for Silver Slugger, WS MVP, LCS MVP or All Star ($25,000 All Star selection)
You mean he's not really being as sarcastic as he sounds?
1B Overbay
LF Lind
CF Wells
RF Rios
DH Stairs
Makes sense.
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