I bet this becomes a class-action lawsuit and becomes a daily topic here for years. Ugh.

P.S. I'm not commenting on the merits of the case, just the fact that steroids won't die.

Grapes of the sour variety perhaps?

I am thinking about suing my High School for allowing other guys onto the baseball team and not me. Steroids, of course!

im thinking rich hartmann had a better shot at his 15 minutes of fame than most of us ever will, blew it, and now is trying to milk the situation for all its worth for another 15.

Nevertheless, him bringing a suit will shame the cheaters further.

That's not a bad thing.

sorry, no can do. it'd be sketchy if he was a AAA player, but not even close.

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=21578

the guy left on his own (?) after 2 yrs in the minors after attending long island university. did fine at low level A ball, didn't do quite so good at high level.

if he was a prospect now, we'd say might have a live arm (good k/walk, k/innings) but needs to not give up so many hits.

but apparently, he chose to go elsewhere. his right, and likely a good career choice, but sour grapes now...

this is a great thing.

GREAT!!! what a fantastic idea this loser - i mean - losee - got.

this way, me and millions of other females can sue all baseball organizations for not letting us play MLB or any other kind of B because we wouldn't shoot testosterone so we would look like males and smell like them too.

oh this is just wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!

now i can start looking for a lawyer for my niece so she can have her lawsuit ready for a few years from now when she turn 12 and they won't let her play baseball cuz only little league forces teams to let females play. yes!!!!!!! i'll hire those famous lawyers kevin and joey b and sugar bear - oh, wait - forget sugar bear, cuz he don't think that athletes should make money, just owners.

where was i? oh yeah

we'll be rich!!! RICH!!! RICH!!!!!!!!

we'll be rich!!! RICH!!! RICH!!!!!!!!

And it'll further shame those people who don't want females in baseball! Win-win!

Class Actions are not about money!!! (this is not Erin Brokovich)

Knowing Rich's intentions... This is 100% being done to hold the GUILTY players ACCOUNTABLE for their actions. (as this is not a victimless crime) They have not 1 time apologized to the minor leaguers that they cheated!!!

The problem is much worse than is advertised. ...and Rich's class action is being started for the purpose of giving former players that were cheated, a chance to show how upset they really are.

...and rich had a 1.65 ERA at the highest level he played at. He was demoted mid season for a harder thrower. check the stats.

The demotion = 0% motivation for the rest of the season, thus the high era at the lower level. (but still maitaining 1 of the highest K per inning ratios in the organization.)

...and rich had a 1.65 ERA at the highest level he played at. He was demoted mid season for a harder thrower. check the stats.

The demotion = 0% motivation for the rest of the season, thus the high era at the lower level. (but still maitaining 1 of the highest K per inning ratios in the organization.)

In fact, the demotion was so devastating that it affected the previous year's stats!

Knowing Rich's intentions...

Unless you're Rich, you wouldn't know his intentions. And if you are, Rickey Henderson wants Rickey's third person schtick back.

He'll actually have to prove he never took steroids. Not easy.

He'll actually have to prove he never took steroids. Not easy.

He always passed the tests the minor leaguers had to go through.

Which works both ways, since the players that passed him up also passed, presumably.

I guess it was just a matter of time before a "wronged party" wanted compensation.

If this can somehow expose MLB's complicity in the steroid conspiracy, this is a good thing.

Otherwise, it's just another notch in America's overly litigious bedpost. If this guy really was demoted in favor of a "hard thrower" (something that still happens all the time today), won't he have to demonstrate that this "hard thrower" was on steroids? How else does he demonstrate that he was a victim? Guys put up good numbers in A-ball all the time and are selling insurance 24 months later. He had a good 16-inning stretch as a 22-year old reliever in A+. Otherwise, his career was 74 innings, no starts, a 4+ ERA, and a 1.28 WHIP.

Again, I wish him luck in hanging MLB's execs out to dry, but this seems (to me) to be some guy looking to blame someone for his failed baseball career.

He always passed the tests the minor leaguers had to go through.

I don't believe testing in the minors arrived until 2001. I though this really all started after MLB execs were stunned how many guy failed the Olympic qualifying drug tests in 2000.

This guy has no chance.

...and rich had a 1.65 ERA at the highest level he played at. He was demoted mid season for a harder thrower. check the stats.

Well, he was demoted, anyway. We don't know why for sure. Teams normally don't demote pitchers who are doing well at that level, who aren't young for that level, since there are always other pitchers who aren't doing well. Usually there's another reason when demotions like that occur. And if he had 0% motivation for the rest of his pro career because of one setback, that doesn't speak well for his having a pro level attitude in the first place.

But in fact, in the small sample size of his A+ career he had a K rate of 6.75/9 ip, which is pretty poor for a middle reliever. Small sample size, but so is the ERA. Between that, and his apparent lack of drive (shown by his 0% motivation after being demoted), there is no reason to think that he was on a major league track.

there is no reason to think that he was on a major league track.

I think that's kind of his point. If he was on steroids, he could have been on a major league track.

Whether that's valid or not I won't say, but looking at his numbers to decide doesn't invalidate his point.

Generally, I've a lot of sympathy for the guys who don't make it - heck, check out where the focus for most of my posts over the years has been, but...

We're talking about a 28th round pick out of college (not someone who fell because of signability issues - this was a organizational soldier selection from the get go), who washed out with a 4.14 ERA as an A-ball middle reliever after two seasons.

Even apart from the dubious merits of such a suit in the first place, this is ridiculous.

How do you distinguish between guys who sucked anyway, and ones who were actually blocked?

How do you distinguish between guys who sucked anyway, and ones who were actually blocked?

You don't. Some things are unknowable. That statement can be applied to the steroid situation in a lot of ways. Debate about who did what is just speculation and gossiping.

Debate about who did what is just speculation and gossiping.


"Well, Your Honor. We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence. "

Reading steroids threads on this site is like watching old ladies in the hair dresser's gabbing about soap operas.

I think that's kind of his point. If he was on steroids, he could have been on a major league track.

Steroids aren't a magic elixir. They don't turn an unmotivated mediocre A ball reliever into a serious prospect. If he'd made it to AAA, he might have a more plausible case, since he'd have been a step away.

As it is, it's coming off as a guy who washed out early in his pro career - as most players do - and wants to assuage his pride by suing now.

akrasian,

you are still saying his case isn't valid because his numbers weren't good enough. He's saying he was a mediocre A ball reliever because he didn't take steroids.

Again, there is no way to give a definite answer. BTW, I happen to agree with your assessment (not that it matters.)

Unless you're Rich, you wouldn't know his intentions.

To be fair, that really hasn't stopped the other 20 posters from determining his intentions either.

akrasian Posted: January 06, 2008 at 01:51 PM (#2661746)

I think that's kind of his point. If he was on steroids, he could have been on a major league track.

Steroids aren't a magic elixir. They don't turn an unmotivated mediocre A ball reliever into a serious prospect.

- they are TOO a magic elixir!!!!!!! in case you didn't know it they turn jose canseco from a skinny lil guy who wasn't a thang in A-ball into a MVP. it is right there in his book!!! and we all know that every single thing written in his book is the absolute gospel truth because since jose told the truth about one thing every single word that comes out of his mouth MUST be true

besides you are seriously screwing with the fantasy of me and a million others that if only we shot up we could turn into barry lamar bonds and roger clemens who were nothing NOTHING NOTHING without the roids. and look at all the other ballplayers who shot up - they all turned into barry lamar and roger and

um

nevermind

you are still saying his case isn't valid because his numbers weren't good enough. He's saying he was a mediocre A ball reliever because he didn't take steroids.

But how is that a defense or a cause for suing?

If I had broken the law and put up better numbers I would have gone further therefore your honor award me a million dollars.

Hell, one of the richest men in the world came into my business the other day, if I had killed him and taken his identity I could be really wealthy right now therefore somebody hand over a billion dollars to me because I chose not to break the law.

His argument should be that his stats or his ability would have been good enough to merit promotions if MLB had been a responsible employer. His stats do not show that he should have merited promotions steroids or not.

If he was being tested for steroids, weren't his minor league competitors being tested as well, so where is his beef? If he wasn't being tested, shouldn't he be suing the players union for blocking said testing?

he’s certain there were many minor leaguers who were denied a chance at Major League Baseball because they refused to use steroids.

Maybe they should've used steroids.

FWIW, I think he may have a case of suing the Chicago Public School system. Their turning a blind eye to my chocolate addiction has blocked him from an extremely lucrative Japanese Language teaching position. Not knowing his educational background, I think it's at least as likely that he's qualified for that as he is as a major league pitcher.

I don't really mind the lawsuit though. More people should sue the giant sports monopolies IMHO.

If he was being tested for steroids, weren't his minor league competitors being tested as well, so where is his beef? If he wasn't being tested, shouldn't he be suing the players union for blocking said testing?

No. First of all, the union didn't do any such thing in general, nor could it do anything specifically here, since the union doesn't represent minor leaguers.

First of all, the union didn't do any such thing in general

They prevented the MLB from testing major leaguers, and put restrictions on said testing once they finally allowed it, didn't they?

They prevented the MLB from testing major leaguers, and put restrictions on said testing once they finally allowed it, didn't they?

"Prevented" is an odd way to phrase it. It's something that had to be negotiated; the owners didn't do so. But a union has no duty to anybody other than its members.

If he was being tested for steroids, weren't his minor league competitors being tested as well, so where is his beef? If he wasn't being tested, shouldn't he be suing the players union for blocking said testing?

Well the truth of the matter is, and where some of the bitterness stems from, is that non-40 man roster guys were piss tested for everything during the 90's. If they caught you doing something that was mandated bad then (cocaine, marijuana) you could get punished or put in a program. Or released. If they caught you doing steriods, you got one of 2 things based on your performance. 1) A little chat with the trainer and/or minor league director, or 2) released.

The fun part is the guys on the 40 man roster in the minor leagues could do whatever the hell they wanted. They never got piss tested. So guys suddenly after 2-3 years of struggling as higher round picks get put on the 40 man amazingly add muscle during the season and start hitting/pitching better. Just because they have "matured" or finally "grown up" or "got it". Remember that if you spend a "day" in the big leagues the least you are making the rest of that season is 25% of the major league minimum if you go back down. So what is a 2-3 years on the 40 man worth?

Everyone wants to make fun of this guy, but what if it was a guy who spent three or 4 years in AA or AAA? Even went to the Fall League, where some of the 40 man guys have pill/syringe cases and the non-40 man guys are peeing in cups? Sound outrageous?

Now I am not saying this guy has a case. Or that everyone who made the major leagues was taking PED's in the 90's. Everyone makes their own decisions and lives with the consequences. In any profession.

This kind of looks like trying to sue your university for not punishing honor code violators that are making more money than you now...but I know no one here ever cheated in high school, college, or grad school to make yourself more attractive for a better higher paying job or get into the school or program you "needed" to. Although it was against the rules. And everyone was doing it...right?

I think I'm going to sue my college. I didn't buy a fancy calculator that could have helped me on my calculus tests. Other rich kids got better grades and better paying jobs because they had fancy texas instruments calculators that could help them get better scored on their tests and better jobs coming out of college. The college should have provided us with the same tools to complete these tests. So I feel cheated like this moron feels cheated.

This kind of looks like trying to sue your university for not punishing honor code violators that are making more money than you now...but I know no one here ever cheated in high school, college, or grad school to make yourself more attractive for a better higher paying job or get into the school or program you "needed" to. Although it was against the rules. And everyone was doing it...right?

Nope, never did it, though I never needed to do it either so I never had to decide on this one. Actually in high school I did the complete opposite so I'm thinking that all of my fellow graduates owe me some money since I made all of them look a little bit better.

Hey Chainsaw,

I remember a guy that used to have that nickname back in high school. I am with you man, if I would have done roids and had it not been for Jackie Robinson, I would be playing CF for the Mets right now. But really though imagine working so hard, having morals only to see the guy who cheated get the job. Thats gotta hurt and you would feel very upset. I guess such is life...