I *loved* Don Mattingly for a couple of years, like everyone else that was a baseball fan and born in the mid-70s. I cant' really explain why, but I really don't see him as a manager. Anyone else have that gut reaction? Anyone with the opposite reaction?

Then again, my favorite team hired Bam Bam Muelens to be their hitting coach, so what do I know?

You know what twist I want to see? Don Mattingly named as having an affair with Jamie McCourt. Just because it would make the whole kerfuffle THAT MUCH MORE SORDID AND THEREFORE AWESOME.

. I cant' really explain why, but I really don't see him as a manager

I can't see any good players as managers. They tend to be guys who sucked.

"I can't see any good players as managers. They tend to be guys who sucked."

Torre, Baker, Black, Scioscia, Cooper, and Piniella come to mind as 2009 managers who didn't suck as players.

I *loved* Don Mattingly for a couple of years, like everyone else that was a baseball fan and born in the mid-70s.

I sure as hell didn't love Don Mattingly, and it had nothing to do with me being born in the late 60s instead of the mid-70s.

And no, I've never really thought of him as managerial timber.

Why can't he go to the minors for a few years to learn how to manage? Oh wait, the Nats are a minor league team.

I was born in the mid-70s, but I never loved Don Mattingly. Perhaps it was his refusal to trim his sideburns.

Born in the Early 70's, love Donnie Baseball.

And managers usually come from retired catchers or middle infielders. Rarely other positions, almost never pitchers.

Of course, I have no data at all and am making this up. I'll go look it up in my free time.

-Bri

Who was the best player whose managerial career eclipsed his playing success? Torre?

John McGraw

Casey Stengel?

By OPS+ McGraw (135) was better than Torre (128), but McGraw's career as a regular was only six or seven seasons, while Torre's was 15. I'm not 100% comfortable giving the nod to McGraw.

McGraw was a butcher in the field, Torre was a catcher, and his career lasted twice as long. That nod goes to Torre easily.

Al Lopez, Dusty Baker, and Felipe Alou can't top Torre, but deserve to be mentioned at least. As do Miller Huggins, Frank Chance, and perhaps Fred Clarke.

But yeah, it's Torre and it's not close.

i have no logical reason for this, but i do not think of mattingly as manager material. i guess its the mustache.

So the fact that he hasn't had the mustache for a while now doesn't persuade you?

You know what twist I want to see? Don Mattingly named as having an affair with Jamie McCourt. Just because it would make the whole kerfuffle THAT MUCH MORE SORDID AND THEREFORE AWESOME.

I'm holding out for Stomper the Elephant.

McGraw was a butcher in the field, Torre was a catcher, and his career lasted twice as long. That nod goes to Torre easily.

This is wrong. McGraw's peak is absolutely insane: he was VERY OBP heavy, so OPS+ grossly underrates his value. Further, he played 3B when it was much further to the left of the defensive spectrum, when it was more like modern 2B.

On peak, its a no-brainer, McGraw smokes Torre, even though Torre had some very good peak seasons. On career, I guess Torre has the edge.

Both made the HoM, I think. (The rest is from memory, and may be incorrect.) McGraw was the tougher choice, but that's because some careerists wouldn't vote for someone with such a short career. Torre, with the more balanced career, appealled to a broader segment of the electorate, but he wasn't rated as highly by his biggest proponents as McGraw.

EDIT: i just wanted to add something to indicate how good McGraw was by rate. His career wOBA is .442. Albert Pujols's wOBA in 2009 was .449. So yeah, he was missing chunks of seasons, but when he played, he was hitting like Pujols, at the modern equivalent of a MIF position.

Basically, he's an inner-circle HOFer by rate. He's by far the greatest player-turned-manager unless you completely ignore peak performance.

For a player/manager, how about Fred Clarke? Or Lou Boudreau?

What about Charles Comiskey? I'm not too familiar with 1880s baseball and his hitting wasn't great, but I do seem to recall that first base was considered a difficult defensive position at the time.

Who was the best player whose managerial career eclipsed his playing success?

Pete Rose, whose managerial career forever blacked out his playing career.

The logical next step with the Mattingly news is that this means we've got a 95% chance of having Jim Riggleman back next year.

::yawn::

Wake me up in about 6 seasons.

"Pete Rose, whose managerial career forever blacked out his playing career."

Winner.

I *loved* Don Mattingly for a couple of years, like everyone else that was a baseball fan and born in the mid-70s. I cant' really explain why, but I really don't see him as a manager. Anyone else have that gut reaction?

Born 1978, I never loved Mattingly. But I'm a Mets fan.

And I think that gut reaction can be explained. He's been trying to take the easy way into managing, trying to get directly into an MLB job without experience or dues-paying at a lower level. That path fails more often than not. Gary Carter tried the same thing and the Mets easily shot him down.

zop, Joe Torre was pretty good at baseball too. Keep in mind that your "career value" candidate is also a guy with a peak that includes an MVP.

"He's been trying to take the easy way into managing, trying to get directly into an MLB job without experience or dues-paying at a lower level. That path fails more often than not."

I don't get this. Mattingly has been a major league coach for a long time now, and for highly successful teams. What other dues-paying is he supposed to do? Manage in the minors? How many current MLB managers actually did that?

Keep in mind that your "career value" candidate is also a guy with a peak that includes an MVP.

Oh, I agree. (And I had forgotten Rose, who is clearly superior to both.)

But McGraw's peak is really REALLY good, like, among the top handful ever. Torre is run-of-the-mill low HoF peak.

Of 30 current MLB Managers, 11 were catchers, 7 were middle infielders, 7 were outfielders, 3 were 3B, 1 was a P, and Dave Trembley never played? (I can't find info on him).

There are no 1B MLB managers, especially none that would be in the HOF if it weren't for back problems. Donnie isn't eligible. =)

A fair amount never made the majors, either. It appears the best path to be a manager is to be a crappy catcher.

-Bri

i have no logical reason for this, but i do not think of mattingly as manager material. i guess its the mustache.


So the fact that he hasn't had the mustache for a while now doesn't persuade you?

yea, see, i didn't say it was logical. i hadn't even noticed.

"and Dave Trembley never played?"

Pretty sure that's right. He started as a h.s. coach, played that into a scouting job, hooked a gig as a minor league manager, and never looked back.

There are no 1B MLB managers, especially none that would be in the HOF

Worth mentioning in the '1B turned manager' and in the 'good player whose managerial career eclipsed his playing career' categories would be Gil Hodges. No McGraw or Torre, certainly, but worth mentioning.

Born in '69, Mattingly was my favorite player as a teenager. I had a poster of him on my wall. I always thought of him more as a lead-by-example type guy, than a rah-rah type guy. Meaning - he doesn't really strike me as the manager type either. EDIT: but I could be completely wrong.

Mattingly prefers to remain in LA and be Torre’s replacement-in-waiting.

Donnie's former second base teammate should talk to him about how that career path turns out...

-Bri

But McGraw's peak is really REALLY good, like, among the top handful ever. Torre is run-of-the-mill low HoF peak.

Meh. I just can't get that excited about a guy who topped 120 games played a mere 3 times, and two of those seasons were among his worst, rate wise. Yeah, he once had a 172 OPS+ with a .508 OBP, but it was in 73 games. Or a 156 OPS+ with a .505 OBP, but in 99 games. He led the league in runs twice, walks twice, and OBP 3 times, one of them with only 447 PA. That to me is nowhere near among the top handful of peak seasons.

I wouldn't mind seeing Mattingly manage the Nats -- Tom Boswell is crazy about him -- but I have this horrid fear he'll pull a Gil Hodges and leave Washington for a more high-profile job just as the team is starting to turn the corner.

Tom Boswell is crazy about him

I do believe you've just stated a prima facie case for not hiring Mattingly.

Red Schoendienst got elected to the Hall of Fame, ostensibly as a player. The truth of that is that he was a pretty good player but certainly nowhere near one that should have been elected to the HoF. In particular, he's no Torre as a player. Schoendienst then had a pretty good peak as a manager, in a respectable career - he may well belong to the category of "managerial career eclipsed playing career."

A number of inner-circle players have managed. The problem with them is that to be better or more famous as manager than player, then they'd have to be an inner-circle manager. For instance, Frank Robinson had a long and interesting career as a manager, but he was such a great player that the managerial side doesn't really measure up.

How about this: propose some sort of combined value measurement for playing and managing. Find some way to measure managers that puts a great manager level with a great player in some number, then take the harmonic mean of playing value and managing value. Who do you like there? McGraw is the #1 candidate that I can think of, but Torre ranks pretty high. Frank Robinson shows up somewhere, and Lou Boudreau, and some old-timers, like Fred Clarke and Frank Chance.

Gary Carter tried the same thing and the Mets easily shot him down.

To be fair to Carter, he managed the Long Island Ducks last season.

Donnie Baseball has a huge ace in the hole. Namely that Joe Torre wants Mattingly to take over the Dodgers after he retires. Did Gary Carter have that much pull with the Mets?

How much pull is Joe Torre going to have with whoever the next owner of the Dodgers is?

Depends, especially if Frank McCourt signs Torre to a long term consulting job after 2010. Even if you're a new owner, are you going to dismiss Joe Torre from giving advice?

Fame can be generational, too, though. Fans born in the 70s and 80s might think of Frank Robinson first as a manager, or at least picture him that way.

It's not impossible to imagine a scenario wherein Mark McGwire becomes a successful, long-time manager, and because of the steroid thing comes to be thought of more as a manager by a lot of fans. That would require that the "steroid era" gets talked about less by the media than other past eras, which is one possible way they'll "deal with it."