Oh come on. Anyone who has a quarrel with this nickname is carrying the art of taking offense to ridiculous levels. The reference to Soria's Mexican origin is clearly a positive association, a statement of national pride in the same way that the players from the Dominican Republic are proud to be associated with their nation. Which is why Soria likes it. Heck, as far as recent nicknames go it's actually a pretty clever one. (Modern baseball nicknames, aside from the occasional "Pronk" or "Big Hurt," have really fallen on hard times.)

If his nickname was "The Lazy Mexican," then I could see the point.

Flanagan must be out of things to write about.

Anyone remember the "Mad Hungarian"?

Super Jew!

Anyone remember the "Mad Hungarian"?

Hrabosky, right?

The nickname is a biitt awkward, but it appears to be going well. Sorta sucks that the t-shirt is basically an 810 ad (but it was featured on the big screen when I saw a Soria save against the White Sox, even if the Royals are with 610).

We'll have to see if Kila Kaaihue is good enough to get a nickname and t-shirt.

I'm not really too interested in the nickname either way. I'd just like to remind that a racialized reference need not be "negative" to be damaging. The racializing/otherization of individuals contributes to unequal treatment whether it's perceived to be a positive or negative association.

That is correct.

It is awesome. Michael Bay would approve.

And Soria gets a pretty good reception for his saves too

the ragin cajun. oh, wait. that's me.

I like this nickname. If I didn't, it would be because it sounds a bit too violent for me personally, but it's ridiculous enough that it doesn't really matter.

I'm not entirely sure how Mexicutioner can be racially insensitive, but perhaps I'm missing something. I'm not even sure it's racializing or "otherizing" as E-X says above. "Mexican" isn't a race as best as I can figure.

Anyhow, as I said, I like it.

I have no problem with this, since "executioner" is not one of the Mexican stereotypes I am familiar with.

For example, I feel sort of upset when I'm lumped in with "nerds," even though "nerds" are supposed to be smart, and most people will admit that that's good. I don't mind being called smart, of course.

Is that what you're talking about?

By the way, I think "Mexicutioner" is pretty stupid, but think how stupid it would be if he weren't Mexican! That's the first thing I thought of . . .

What if he was from Texas, and they called him the "Texecutionaer"?

i think its harmless because it sounds like one of those silly pro wrestling nicknames, and mexico has a vibrant wrestling subculture ... right?

The Royals did miss a pretty good promotion night when they decided to give out Tony Pena, Jr. Bobbleheads on Hispanic Heritage Night (instead of Joakim Soria bobbleheads)

Yes, bobbleheads of TPJ, who has an OPS+ of 1 right now.

It should be one hell of a crowd of white people celebrating Hispanic heritage (sorta like how Mexican* restaurant customers are usually white dudes)

(* - Most Mexican food in most Mexican Restaurants has origins in Texas)

I don't particularly like "Mexecutioner", but I don't find it offensive. Bear in mind that Buddy Bell once famously called him "Mexican Tough" (which I liked better, honestly, but it's more explicitly racialized).

As a nickname, it has the benefit of evoking his stony expression on the mound and the success he's had so far. It's a little clumsy and silly, so it has a reasonable chance of dying out if people find something they like better. Beyond that, I say no harm, no foul.

Bear in mind that Buddy Bell once famously called him "Mexican Tough"

Because he couldn't find a way to attach the letter y to the name Joakim.

Mexican Tough did make it to the 810 Soria t-shirt. (The t-shirt is one of the more tolerable things to come out of Kietzmanland too)

And bring on the Cuervo Girls for Hispanic Heritage Night.

I'm not entirely sure how Mexicutioner can be racially insensitive, but perhaps I'm missing something. I'm not even sure it's racializing or "otherizing" as E-X says above. "Mexican" isn't a race as best as I can figure.

Once again, without making a value judgment of any kind, I'd just point out that "Mexican" is a relatively common term of racialization for non-white Hispanic or Latino Americans in the same way when people toss out "Chinese" they often are referring to anyone of East Asian descent.

Sure, in my case, they'd happen to be right, but depending on the perspective of the speaker, it can be immaterial.

EX - I find everything you're saying to be valid, and I would agree conceptually with how it would apply in other cases. I would agree SPECIFICALLY with problems with "Mexican tough", which I find about as clever or relevant as "Japanese musical" or something like that. But with the Mexicutioner nickname, applying those theories in that case is enough of a stretch that isn't relevant.

And you know where I stand on everything else. ;-)

It wouldn't have occurred to me that Mexicutioner might be offensive to anybody until I read about it here.

But if anybody ever refers to me as the Connecticutioner, I will straight up murder your ass.

Would being referred to as "Mexican", all by itself, ever be offensive to someone who actually was Mexican? Because if so, we're really getting into a situation where it's best to just strap our mouths shut.

Edit: by "we're", I mean the society, which includes me, however indirectly. Have all the various stupidities of our history come together such that we've hurt each other so badly that almost everything hurts?

What if he was from Texas, and they called him the "Texecutionaer"?

We'd elect him president.

This reminds me of The Office where Michael thought referring to Oscar as Mexican was a slur, when Oscar was in fact Mexican.

Your gayness doesn't define you Oscar, your Mexicanity does.

What if he was from Texas, and they called him the "Texecutionaer"?

If he's a Tejano, he might be the Tex-Mexecutioner

A Google image search for "The Mexicutioner" yields unexpected results. In case anyone's interested.

Why is Manny Pacquiao the Mexicutioner? He's like one of the few lightweight boxers who ISN'T from Mexico.

As a personal aside, I grew up in the Mission District of San Francisco, which, then as now, is primarily Hispanic. I was the only Caucasian kid on my block (in the early 70's), and I was dubbed with the nickname "The Lone Honky". Somehow, I managed to not be offended, although it probably would have offended others.

And as for the others, screw 'em if they can't take a joke. And that goes for the people who are critical of the nickname "Mexicutioner", which I think is pretty cool. If he's ok with it, who cares what others think.

What does "racially insensitive" even mean?

As a personal aside, I grew up in the Sacramento Valley, which, then as now, is primarily gentile. I was the only Jewish kid on my block (in the early 70's), and I was dubbed with the nickname "The Big Nosed Jew". Somehow, I managed to not be offended, although it probably would have offended others.

So, Rich, where will Artest be playing next year?

I have not heard of "Mexican" being used in an all-encompassing way to describe Latinos, at least not in the last 25 years. Perhaps that was used in the fifties and early sixties. The terms I've usually heard are Latins, Latinos, Hispanics, Spaniards, and one derogatory term that begins with "s" and ends with "c."

I really don't understand the problem with the term, "Mexicutioner." It doesn't promote a stereotype, Soria doesn't seem to mind it, and he is Mexican.

It's actually refreshing to hear a nickname that isn't someone's last name with the letters "ey" added to the end. Now that's offensive!

Central Americans probably get mistaken for Mexicans, but there are differences between Hondurans and Mexicans, they insist that's the case

Keith Hernandez was nicknamed Mex, even though his family was from Spain. That borders on being in the past 25 years.

He probably preferred that to "Herney."

one derogatory term that begins with "s" and ends with "c."

I thought "septic" was Aussie slang for Americans.

If he's a Tejano, he might be the Tex-Mexecutioner

this wins the thread.

i like the nickname, esp. if Soria likes it. he's the one who matters in this. and i say that as a bleeding heart crazy sensitive liberal. there would be a problem if (like Keith Hernandez) he wasn't actually Mexican and didn't like it.

I've been in situations where people used "Mexicans" to refer to all Latin Americans in the vicinity, without actually knowing anything about where said Latin Americans came from.

This is in places where the only immigrants around are working in the agricultural sector. In that case the non-Mexicans being lumped in as "Mexicans" are from Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, as mentioned above. People are a lot less likely to mistake Dominicans or Cubans for Mexicans, for whatever reason. (probably those places are associated with having darker skin)

On a related note, I tried to give CC Sabathia the nickname "Black Sab(b)athia" upon his annexation by the Brewers, but received some rather offended feedback. Thoughts?

It's obviously a pun, but it has black in it, and he is. So it could be misconstrued. Some around here probably would like for Chris Berman to say it.

"So, Rich, where will Artest be playing next year?"

Sacramento. I think the problem the Kings face is that he may want to leave (he seems to go back and forth on that question), but teams that want him are unlikely to give up as good a player in exchange. Ron is in the last year of his contract, so that will be it with the Kings.

If a lot goes right for Sacramento, the Kings stand a chance to make the playoffs this year. They were actually a decent team last season, when Artest was not suspended, when Beno Udrih was not hurt, etc., etc. Of course, a lot might not go right for the Kings -- Brad Miller is suspended for the first 5 games due to a 3rd pos. test for dope -- but they do have a large collection of slightly better than average NBA talent. (I'm a big fan of Shareef Abdur-Rahim*. The Kings need him to contribute something this season. He was out with surgery all last year.)

* I suppose it's just a coincidence, but 2 of my 5 favorite players since say 1990 have been Muslims: The Dream and Hedo Turkoglu. (Bobby Jackson, Manu Ginobili and Peja, not Muslims.) Abdur-Rahim is very likable, but not quite top 5.

On a related note, I tried to give CC Sabathia the nickname "Black Sab(b)athia" upon his annexation by the Brewers, but received some rather offended feedback. Thoughts?

Yeah, I can see how that would go over badly

John Calipari once referred to a Mexican-American reporter as a "f-ing Mexican idiot."

Discuss.

I have not heard of "Mexican" being used in an all-encompassing way to describe Latinos, at least not in the last 25 years.

Then you have not been talking to the, uh, "right" people. It was mentioned above that this happens mostly in rural areas where most of the Hispanic immigrants work in agriculture, but I've also seen it happen in exurban areas of Oregon and Washington that are not explicitly rural but do have new populations of Hispanic people. My grandmother, for instance, refers to all Hispanics as Mexican, presumably because she thinks they all actually do come from Mexico. She's certainly not alone, either.

John Calipari once referred to a Mexican-American reporter as a "f-ing Mexican idiot."

Discuss.

As a white Canadian who has never heard of John Calipari, I am deeply offended. Can we launch a boycott of some kind?

Ah, 1990s Nets coach who also was at the helm for Memphis's OT loss to Kansas in the 2008 NCAA men's hoops title game....

I have not heard of "Mexican" being used in an all-encompassing way to describe Latinos, at least not in the last 25 years.

Yeah, I'm with Vortex on this one--I hear it frequently. And if you look at the nativist side of the immigration debate, it tends to surface often.

As to whether it's ok if you are right, I think people are intentionally playing dumb on this one. I mean, there's certainly there are a variety of subtexts that can accompany commenting on someone's ethnicity and not all of them are good. For instance, it's very easy to intentionally marginalize someone with a number of true comments about their ethnicity.

The problem with subtexts is that the two parties to a verbal transaction don't always have the same understanding of the subtext. Usually, however, there's no reason to refer to someone's ethnicity unless it's clearly (well, probably, but that becomes clear presently) not an insult; e.g., "As a Mexican-American, what do you think about x."

If Soria was given that name and came out of the bullpen to "The Mexican Hat Dance" song, then I could see where it MIGHT be offensive.

But the dude struts out to "Welcome to the Jungle".

Exactly. I agree entirely. With nicknames, however, it gets to be a fuzzy area which is why I honestly am pretty whatever about the whole Soria thing. I mean, I tend to frown on any crap nicknames that stereotype the target, and that's the most common method of nicknaming.

But like any great gift, a wonderful nickname can usually only be given by someone who really understands the receiver.

CC "Thou shalt rest on the" Sabathia would be Berman's.

Yeah, I'm with Vortex on this one--I hear it frequently.

I appreciate it anytime someone says they're with me, but was Voxter who made the original comment, not vortex.

My bag--the funny thing is that when you responded, I read it as this:

I appreciate it anytime someone says they're with me, but was Vortex who made the original comment, not vortex.

And got even more confused...

There are a lot of these V---x names around here.

There are a lot of these V---x names around here.

Perhaps we should start a union?

I think a nickname like 'The Mexicutioner' sounds like something that would be embraced by Soria. If I was a Mexican pitcher, after hearing that nickname said about me, I would have thought 'Damn, why didn't I come up with that'.

To #31: I grew up in Houston, Texas and if 'big nose jew' was the most offensive thing I would have heard, I probably wouldn't have minded. But, skinheads (side note: why do skinheads always go to punk rock shows (or from that scene): Social Distortion, Fugazi, etc...bands who are obviously not white power..anyways) and others were much harsher than that towards me. I tried to ignore it, as counting all my money, going to the ZOG meetings, and making up the holocaust occupied much of my time. See you at our next meeting.

And if you look at the nativist side of the immigration debate, it tends to surface often.

The truly funny thing with this is that the "nativists" are of European descent. At least Mexico is close.

People who fear immigration generally do jobs that you could teach to a monkey in a day. I suppose it would be good for people in that situation if the borders closed the minute after they got in.

10 CC Black Sabbathia would work but it's a mouthful.

As to whether it's ok if you are right, I think people are intentionally playing dumb on this one. I mean, there's certainly there are a variety of subtexts that can accompany commenting on someone's ethnicity and not all of them are good. For instance, it's very easy to intentionally marginalize someone with a number of true comments about their ethnicity.

But ethnicity exists, and we need to describe it in conversation. Sure people misuse "Mexican" and "Chinese," but I know a lot of people from Mexico and China. It certainly simplifies conversations if we can refer to their ethnicity with these concise terms. Just because some uneducated guy in rural Illinois uses "Mexican" improperly and in a context that is negative doesn't make the word "Mexican" the problem. The context is the problem.

And Mexican is a descriptive term if used properly. So if this is a problem, how do we describe someone from Mexico? And why can't we use it in an obviously non-offensive nickname?

It is similar in someways to the progression of words: crippled, handicapped, disabled,... We eventually move along in the progression once we reach a point where "a stigma is associated with the word." But this is nonsense; the stigma isn't associated with any of these words, the stigma is associated with the condition that the words describe. And the problem isn't the word itself, but the way in which it is used.

What does "racially insensitive" even mean?

If I know my WWE wrestling, it means you have one of those extra-strong Samoan skulls that can't be injured.

What does "racially insensitive" even mean?

If I know my WWE wrestling, it means you have one of those extra-strong Samoan skulls that can't be injured.

THE SAMOAN BULLDOZER, UUUUUUUUUUUUMAGA!

Odd really, it seemed to me that when Notre Dame was brought up the cop out was, "well, they like it", now it seems since we are again talking about a non white ethnicity it doesn't really matter if the person likes it or not, it still shouldn't be done. It becomes, "it is sort of alright but it still shouldn't be done".

And Mexican is a descriptive term if used properly. So if this is a problem, how do we describe someone from Mexico? And why can't we use it in an obviously non-offensive nickname?

Agreed. There was just the idea introduced that it's can't be a problem if it's correct. I was merely getting at Vaux's point that there is usually no reason to directly refer to a person's ethnicity out of the blue.

So I'm not saying that you can't use the term "Mexican" ever. I'm just saying that it's not always appropriate, and furthermore, your last sentence is troubling--"obviously non-offensive"--as it begs the question "to whom"?

I'm not going to jump in and tell Soria that he ought to be offended. That would be presumptuous. I've just seen way too many times people say, "Well, this <insert random token ethnicity here> doesn't find it offensive when I chinkify my eyes, so why are you so thin skinned!" Just because it seems obviously non-offensive to me and some random Mexican guy doesn't mean I should criticize some other Mexican guys decision to be offended.

And in terms of ease of description, I'm not saying it shouldn't be used, but it does seem like this is a very common fallback to actually observing individual characteristics of folks of ethnic other background. For example, I think it's kind of funny, but I get called Mr. D*** (not profane, just censored for my friend's anonymity) at school about 2 twice a day.

Mr. D is the only other person of East Asian descent at my school. He has a reserved personality, I have an outgoing one. He teaches Math, I teach world language. He is a handsome man of Filipino descent, I am a handsome man of half-Chinese descent. He is in his mid-thirties with a half-dozen kids, I am a recently married childless guy who gets confused for the kids when I dress young.

I look more like James Connelly than I do Mr. D.

Sometimes, when Mr. D or I get recognized for an award, the wrong person gets called to the office.

It's not really a big deal. Mr. D is a hell of a teacher and I person, so there's certainly worse people who I could be confused with. But I just share to highlight the dangers of essentializing and identifying others by ethnicity.

Oh, and in regards to Notre Dame, my old man hates that ####### mascot, and that hasn't been too uncommon among the ex-pat Irish I've met in the U.S.

Oh, and in regards to Notre Dame, my old man hates that ####### mascot, and that hasn't been too uncommon among the ex-pat Irish I've met in the U.S.

American Irish and Irish Irish aren't the same thing.

So I'm not saying that you can't use the term "Mexican" ever. I'm just saying that it's not always appropriate, and furthermore, your last sentence is troubling--"obviously non-offensive"--as it begs the question "to whom"?

Of course referring to someone from Puerto Rico as "Mexican" is not appropriate. Maybe I don't really rub elbows with mainstream America, but I am not really around people who get these things confused. I know that their are some who do make this error, but I really don't worry myself about these folks.

As for the "obviously non-offensive," there are no hard and fast rules as to what is offensive; we generally define things as offensive when some threshold of people find them offensive. There is no evidence that "Mexicutioner" has crossed that threshold.

Now, if we want to mitigate risk, and attempt to avoid potentially offensive terms, then we will probably not generate any nicknames that reference ethnicity or country of origin in any way. Is this what you think we ought to do? I think it is a bit overboard; I think that if people use good judgment and empathy, and treat others with respect, then we will probably have very few actual occasions of offense.

Also, I don't believe that I would ever call someone of half-Chinese descent, "Chinese," unless they really wanted me to refer to them that way. I usually reserve this term for people who are from, and grew up in, China. So if you called yourself "Chinese" enough times in my presence, I might use it, but probably wouldn't.

"Oh, and in regards to Notre Dame, my old man hates that ####### mascot, and that hasn't been too uncommon among the ex-pat Irish I've met in the U.S."

I'm pretty sure the Irish still in Ireland love ND because of their nickname, for whatever thats worth. The place goes pretty bonkers for them, IIRC, when they go over there

American Irish and Irish Irish aren't the same thing.

I've been trying to explain that to people for years...

American Irish and Irish Irish aren't the same thing.

Right -- the Irish Irish are socialists who don't even know how to properly celebrate St. Patrick's Day.

I'm a Big Nosed Jew and I would be tickled if I were nicknamed The Mexicutioner.

EDIT: I went to Cancun on spring break sophomore year of college.

#69 -- That reminds me about the story of the Mets Fan who owned a tortilla factory in Los Angeles. He went nuts and put poison in his tortillas, killing dozens of taco- and burrito-loving Mexicans. The Spanish-language newspapers called him, The Mexicutioner.

I'd like the nickname, but I'm not going to kill any Mexicans to get it.

EDIT: I didn't mean "Mexicans," obviously, I meant "Unamerican Americans." My apologies.

On a related note, I tried to give CC Sabathia the nickname "Black Sab(b)athia" upon his annexation by the Brewers, but received some rather offended feedback. Thoughts?

I am deeply offended by anything that reminds me of Chris Berman.

Now we need Royals to fill the Flattus Maximus, Beefcake the Mighty, Nippleus Erectus, and Balsac the Jaws of Death roles and we'll have a band.

I have not heard of "Mexican" being used in an all-encompassing way to describe Latinos, at least not in the last 25 years.

Haven't you seen Crash?!?!?

The crappy "I discovered racism at a PTA meeting when I was 40" film or the soft-porn with James Spader?

Hey, that's the crappy "I discovered racism at a PTA meeting when I was 40, and look at how everything magically evens out racially, except that the Asians all can't ####### drive and are trafficking in the modern slave trade" film

or the soft-porn with James Spader?

The real purpose of this thread was to get people to admit to seeing Crash.

The first one was WAAAAY better.

The remake confused me.

the dude struts out to "Welcome to the Jungle".

Well, at least we know what the Mexicutioner's song is.

As a personal aside, I grew up in the Mission District of San Francisco, which, then as now, is primarily Hispanic. I was the only Caucasian kid on my block (in the early 70's), and I was dubbed with the nickname "The Lone Honky". Somehow, I managed to not be offended, although it probably would have offended others.

I grew up deep in the Inland Empire of Southern California, one of the only Asian kids in an area that was white, black, Latino, and very poor. "F*ckin' Chink" was my nickname, and I tried very hard for a very long time not to be offended. When every wanna-be tough in school wants to see what sort of kung-fu you know, days can be very long.

I think "The Mexicutioner" is teh awesome nickname.

I'm pretty sure the Irish still in Ireland love ND because of their nickname, for whatever thats worth. The place goes pretty bonkers for them, IIRC, when they go over there

People in Ireland are too busy counting their money to care about college football.

American Irish and Irish Irish aren't the same thing.

Hoo boy, ain't that the truth.

I don't feel like anyone would find "Dominican Dandy" or "Amazing Aussie" or "Canadian Bacon" offensive.

I can see where it'd be different though if the nickname focuses on black-ness, Mexican-ness, Chinese-ness, Jew-ness, or what have you, because there have been very pervasive discriminatory attitudes towards those sets of people in this country.

That said, if Soria likes it, we're certainly in no position to tell him that he can't be proud of being Mexican,

American Irish and Irish Irish aren't the same thing.

Hoo boy, ain't that the truth.

Yeah, I've met a handful of Irish-Americans who aren't alcoholics.

Thank you to Eraser-X for Post 63.

No doubt that scenario is a common one, but you've fleshed it out very even-handedly.

"F*ckin' Chink" was my nickname, and I tried very hard for a very long time not to be offended. When every wanna-be tough in school wants to see what sort of kung-fu you know, days can be very long

I know it's over-used, but why do you hate America?

I'm happy to accept the nickname so long as the first MLB player to come from El Salvador gets to be called "The Elocutioner".

How come there aren't more Mexicans in MLB?

What's sad is that the Royals feel the need to pay cheap for a Mexican worker like Soria when there are plenty of hard-working unemployed Americans like Joe Borowski who can close.

< / lou dobbs >

If he was good at sit ups, would he be the solar plexacutioner?

If he liked dinosaurs, would he be the T rexacutioner?

If he could really bend the curve, would he be the convexacutioner?

If he did amphetamines, would he be the dexacutioner

If he liked German beer, would he be the becksacutioner?

If he liked sex..?

I'm offended that Rays fans are starting to call Grant Balfour "Mad Max".


Wait, no I'm not.

I have not heard of "Mexican" being used in an all-encompassing way to describe Latinos.

Neither have, but I'm from Connecticut. Most of the Latinos I grew up around were from Puerto Rico. But that's changed over the years.

"Modern baseball nicknames, aside from the occasional "Pronk" or "Big Hurt," have really fallen on hard times."

Speaking of ethnic references, I still love Shane Komine's: "Hawaiian Punch-Out".

"As a personal aside, I grew up in the Mission District of San Francisco, which, then as now, is primarily Hispanic. I was the only Caucasian kid on my block (in the early 70's), and I was dubbed with the nickname 'The Lone Honky'. Somehow, I managed to not be offended, although it probably would have offended others."

Dude, that's awesome. I would KILL for that nickname.

I don't know when Komine got his, but Brandon League has had the "Hawaiian Punch-Out" nickname since 2004 in the Eastern League. And after his wicked heater aimed at Dioner Navarro's shin over the weekend, it might be shortened to the "Hawaiian Punch".

CC "Thou shalt rest on the" Sabathia would be Berman's.

Incorrect. Berman's actual nickname for Sabathia was C.C. "Splish splash I was taking a" Sabathia. No, I am not making that up; he actually said that.

How come there aren't more Mexicans in MLB?

that darn Durazo keeps getting hurt.

As a Scot, I like being mentioned at all.

How come there aren't more Mexicans in MLB?

The jobs pay too much?

I'm a geordie, we get mocked all the time.

I don't know when Komine got his, but Brandon League has had the "Hawaiian Punch-Out" nickname since 2004 in the Eastern League. And after his wicked heater aimed at Dioner Navarro's shin over the weekend, it might be shortened to the "Hawaiian Punch".

I think Komine got it back in college while he was killing the NCAA while pitching for Nebraska (quite the geographic change).

And I think his name was "The Hawaiian K.O" (as in K.Omine)