jeff, that was a while back, wasn't it? i was just looking at some basic pop. stats ... i don't really feel expert enough to draw solid conclusions. i'll back off, if it makes you feel any better.

:-)

A while back? Long time since you've been in the Lounge, I see. Long time for the mainland, but the "MSA is best" argument comes up at least once or twice a year in there. Its viciousness is superseded by a very few arguments including, but not limited to: "Are men who use rolling luggage wusses?", "Fuddrucker's: fast food or not?", and "'Customer With Child' parking spaces: evil thing, or most evil thing ever?"

Whatever. I've been to MANY Red Sox games on the road and I've never seen the Red Sox fans being d-bags. It's much more common for the home fans to be d-bags towards the visiting Red Sox fans.

Erik entered that in there just so he wouldn't have to explain his own team's inherent population advantage.

My favorite team has a population advantage. My favorite team has a lot of advantages - more than the Sox do. I can't explain the exact reason why, but I don't think that's important here. We're not talking about the Yankees.

I don't think this disqualifies me from discussing the fact that other teams also have big advantages. For the record, I think it's delusional for Red Sox fans to imply - or say specifically - that

Boston doesn't have a built in revenue and payroll advantage.

The team is fortunate in many ways. And good at stuff, too.

A good team in Boston has more revenue potential than a good team elsewhere (Yankees not included).

Whatever. I've been to MANY Red Sox games on the road and I've never seen the Red Sox fans being d-bags.

Why, remarkably, I also hear that DMN has never met a libertarian he couldn't get along with, and sj is pretty sure Yankee fans are pretty cool!

Seriously, you're a Sox fan. I don't go to you for unbiased opinions of Sox fan behavior, just like ESPN won't be coming to me this weekend to find out what I think of UT fans at the Cotton Bowl. Post-2004, every time (of three) I've been at a Rangers game where they were playing the Sox (my mom's season ticket split is halfway down the 3rd base side, so visiting fans abound), the crowd has been noticeably more obnoxious, drunk, and loud than any other team.

I love Boston. It's the only city I'd leave Austin permanently for. The Sox used to be my 2nd AL team and 4th overall. And I've said many times that Shredder overstates the case. But to claim that Sox road fans aren't d-bags (especially *never* d-bags) is silliness.

And are there actually any Pirates fans left besides Emeigh?

We have a fair number here, and the Pirates' mailing list gets a moderate amount of traffic.

-- MWE

Here's a news flash: Lots of Sox fans are D bags at Fenway, too. BFD.

Who cares? Because fans can't play the games, they have to snipe at each other?

"Your fans are D bags." "NO, YOUR fans are D bags."

STFU, D bags, and watch the games.

If you don't want d bag Red Sox fans acting like d bags at your team's ballparks, become a community organizer and make sure that your team sells out, or comes close, so that the d bag Red Sox fans are outnumbered by lots. What goes on in Baltimore and Tampa (until this year) should be an embarrassment to those cities. Red Sox home games on the road. And, as I've said before, the owners of those teams appreciate those d bag Red Sox fans being there and spending their money there. Whatever the reason any city has for not supporting their team doesn't give them a reason to complain about all the d bag Red Sox fans that do show up to the games. It's their own fault. Buy up the seats, or STFU.

Here's a news flash: Lots of Sox fans are D bags at Fenway, too. BFD.

Who cares? Because fans can't play the games, they have to snipe at each other?

No, I perfectly agree with you. There are lot of d-bag UT fans, too (though there are more d-bag OU fans because, well...they're from Oklahoma.) It's not a big deal, which is why I think Shredder overstates it. Greg's claim is just ridiculous, and I don't think it's sniping to point that out.

Jeff, I would say that there are a lot of fans of all teams that don't measure up to what someone else's standard of what a "good fan" would be. I just think it's a veddy boring meme, at this point in time.

My claim is based on personal experience. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying I haven't seen it.

It's not a big deal, which is why I think Shredder overstates it is a D-bag too.

Doing lots of fixing today.

My claim is based on personal experience. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying I haven't seen it.

Fair enough, of course. I'm surprised you haven't seen it, but I'll allow that it's possible. It could be me. At a UT game, I'm the "stand up, scream your ####### head off and probably at least half drunk" fan because that's what is great about CFB to me. At a baseball game, I'm exceedingly quiet, and don't really cheer much outside of when a run is scored. I prefer to watch the game that way. So a guy who I'd never notice at a UT game can really annoy the crap out of me at a baseball game. However, with the sheer numbers of others reporting the same experiences, I'm fine thinking my experiences are in the mainstream.

i remember going to a red sox game at fenway and a whole bunch of d-bags in the right field grand stand kept yelling at the angels' right fielder. they were pronouncing his name wrong, too. ####### d-bags.

Or I'd rather root for players I like than players I hate. I wouldn't have wanted Michael Jordan on the Knicks either.

Youkilis complains a good deal, but he's an overachiever who hustles and who plays far better than his physical abilities would suggest. He's a fat white guy - a jewish guy. He cant run for ####. He has very little natural athleticism on the MLB scale. He just plays hard. He's a nice guy who has never even sniffed any sort of trouble, legal or otherwise, in his life. He is EXACTLY the type of player fans from every city usually appreciate and like. The same way people would get a kick out of David Wells or Rod Beck or whatever scrappy player you want to think of. Youk is scrappy AND legitimately good. He's got that whole scrappy white guy vibe going. Im not trying to convince anyone to like him here, but youre lying or incompetent if youre saying you wouldnt want him (or Michael Jordan) on your team. I would wager that in most places he's mildly liked; he's that type of player.

People looking for reasons to dislike him should probably ask themselves why... if the best reason you come up with is he complains about balls and strikes its time to look in the mirror and admit youre full of ####. Make sure to take off your Yankees cap first. In fact, if Youkilis had had the same career he had now, but as 1B for the Yankees he would be one of the most popular players on that team and in that city. There would be constant comparisons to Jeter and Paul ONeill and Michael Kay would go on and on about what a gamer he is.

At a baseball game, I'm exceedingly quiet, and don't really cheer much outside of when a run is scored. I prefer to watch the game that way. So a guy who I'd never notice at a UT game can really annoy the crap out of me at a baseball game.

I think we've found the source of the problem: Red Sox fans do, in general, cheer. So if that bugs you, it could be a problem, though I also think it's incredibly bizarre.

Kevin Youkilis: Larry Bird in cleats?

"Are men who use rolling luggage wusses?", "Fuddrucker's: fast food or not?", and "'Customer With Child' parking spaces: evil thing, or most evil thing ever?"

I'm intrigued by these questions, yet fearful of the lounge. Can I read it without all of the pictures?

I'm always shocked at the sheer numbers of Red Sox fans I see, all over the country. Are there really that many New England transplants? If so, what's driving them away from New England?

He's a nice guy who has never even sniffed any sort of trouble, legal or otherwise, in his life.

There was a story running around here about how Youkilis was at a bar and hit one our poster's friends girlfriend (who was hot) right in front of her boyfriend. When she pointed out her boyfriend he said something like so what, I'm a ballplayer you should come home with me.

Sounds like a nice guy to me. Anyway whether the story is true or not it is what I think of everytime I see him complain like a little #####. A bad guy with entitlement issues is what he is to me.

I want to say MHS is the source of that story but I'm not sure.

I'm always shocked at the sheer numbers of Red Sox fans I see, all over the country. Are there really that many New England transplants? If so, what's driving them away from New England?

Ticket prices.

On edit: I do think that Youkilis is exactly the kind of guy you love on your team and hate to play against. (If a sense of entitlement to hot women is being admitted into fan calculations, then professional sports may collapse under the weight of fan hatred.) The only player on the Red Sox that I would really suffer with trying to root for is Papelbon. Other than his clear talent, which he has in spades, there isn't anything about the guy I find entertaining or root-worthy, on or off the field.

Rooting for players is entirely subjective, of course, and suggesting that someone's fandom is being conducted "incompetently" because they don't want to have to root for someone they just don't like, regardless of the empirical talent of that player, makes no sense to me whatsoever. Measuring people's fandom is the same to me as suggesting you can see into their souls. And nobody should want Michael Jordan on their team, he sucks at baseball.

No, I perfectly agree with you. There are lot of d-bag UT fans, too (though there are more d-bag OU fans because, well...they're from Oklahoma.)

A Texan complaining about people from Oklahoma? Seriously, that's like a Yankees fan complaining about the Jays.

If so, what's driving them away from New England?

It's called "winter".

I'm always shocked at the sheer numbers of Red Sox fans I see, all over the country. Are there really that many New England transplants? If so, what's driving them away from New England?

One explanation I've seen consistently is that a lot of people get swept up when they're in college in NE. I've also run into Sox fans here and elsewhere who became fans because of their parent coming from NE.

I have to acknowledge the bandwagoneers, too.

I'm 40 and the Connecticut economy hit the skids in the early 90s (a lot of defense contractors were cutting back then.) I think quite a few folks in my cohort moved south or west. It's not unlike the Steeler fan diaspora from a few years prior.

Going to a game at Fenway can also be expensive, too - if you can get tickets (which often means spending a whole day on the team's website in December/February), that is. I've had people tell me that travel + hotel + tickets in Baltimore or Toronto (especially when the exchange rate favored the US more) was actually cheaper than seeing the team at home.

Youkilis complains a good deal, but he's an overachiever who hustles and who plays far better than his physical abilities would suggest. He's a fat white guy - a jewish guy. He cant run for ####. He has very little natural athleticism on the MLB scale. He just plays hard. He's a nice guy who has never even sniffed any sort of trouble, legal or otherwise, in his life. He is EXACTLY the type of player fans from every city usually appreciate and like.

Obviously I was never properly taught how to be a fan. I had no idea I should be rooting for fat, scrappy, unathletic Jews.


The same way people would get a kick out of David Wells or Rod Beck or whatever scrappy player you want to think of.

I loved how Wells scrapped his way through the 2003 World Series.

Sorry, I don't tend to cheer for fat #####.


youre lying or incompetent if youre saying you wouldnt want him (or Michael Jordan) on your team.

I'm not lying. I don't know how to prove that. OK, I also don't want LeBron James on the Knicks. You can bookmark this thread and if the Knicks sign him in two years, I assure you I will not be happy about it.

"Incompetent"? I'm an incompetent fan? That's a new one on me. Is that like trying to buy World Series tickets in November, or forgetting which way to turn my palms when I applaud?


People looking for reasons to dislike him should probably ask themselves why... if the best reason you come up with is he complains about balls and strikes its time to look in the mirror and admit youre full of ####.

I don't look for reasons to dislike him. It's a very natural reaction. I'd say it's based about 20% on his team, 60% on his stupid face and grooming habits. Crying about balls and strikes has little to do with it.

He's a fat white guy - a jewish guy. He cant run for ####.

Being a fat professional athlete who can't run is something to be impressed by? If he's fat, go on a freaking diet. Work out harder. Can't run? Hire a sprint coach to teach himself proper running mechanics. Lift weights, do plyometrics to put his lower body in better condition so that he can run.

he same way people would get a kick out of David Wells or Rod Beck or whatever scrappy player you want to think of.

Just like the way the should get a kick out of Prince Fielder? WTF is being a fat baseball player regarded as something to be proud of? A fat baseball player who is to indisciplined to watch his diet, and too lazy to work out hard enough, should be derided at least as much as one who puts no effort into playing defense, and who lollygags on the bases.

if the best reason you come up with is he complains about balls and strikes its time to look in the mirror and admit youre full of ####.

Sure thing -- right after you take your lips off his right nut.

For all the fire-Mickey-Hatcher types out there, and/or people who don't like the Angels' offensive philosophy -- Am I the only one who thinks that Angel hitters worked the hell out of counts against Boston starters this series? Seriously, they had Dice-K and Beckett to 100 pitches through 5. Lester, who wasn't at all wild (and who was awesome), was still at 100 through six both games, I think. The team was *much* more patient than usual in the playoffs, got a big bunch of baserunners, but then just choked in the clutch (an on the basepaths, and in the field). It's bizarre to me to blame this series on the lack of count-working.

Matt, at times the Angels DID work counts in this series, but it wasn't consistent, and it was deplorable for the most part with runners in scoring position. Consider these series numbers: Fifteen times with RISP, Angel hitters swung at the first pitch and five more times they swung at the second pitch in an AB without seeing Strike One. In all 20 of these instances, they came up empty. Ten of them resulted in outs, with Teixeira's sac fly in Game 2 the only RBI. Torii Hunter is being credited for going 5-for-11 with RISP, but he was up with RISP in the majority of his ABs. He did more first-pitch hacking than any Angel, and stranded 12 baserunners, second only Kendrick.

I didn't check the video, but I'm guessing Red Sox pitchers are aware of Angel hitter tendencies, and weren't exactly throwing the ball down the middle. There's never been much of a penalty exacted for not throwing strikes to Angel hitters.

On a related but non-postseason note, Casey Kotchman turned into an unbelieveable hacker from May through July this year, seemingly without check, after being good-to-excellent from a patience standpoint throughout his career. Ditto Juan Rivera after becoming a starter in the second half, as well as in the playoffs.

There's something in the Angel offensive scheme that needs adjusting.

If so, what's driving them away from New England?

The rest of the country can't fill their need for highly educated professionals simply by hiring locally.

Jthompson ... thanks for this. i could swear every time i turned on the series i saw an angel hacking at the first pitch in a big at bat. i kept thinking if i was a fan of the halos i'd be going nuts.

you aren't jthompson of trend offset printing by any chance?

#129 is spot on.

Nice, JT.

bp/phredbird - nope, not that JT.

I had no idea I should be rooting for fat, scrappy, unathletic Jews.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

I loved how Wells scrapped his way through the 2003 World Series.

I think you have an extra "s" in there somewhere.

Some of my favorite pitchers have been on the portly side -- El Tiante and Mickey Lolich, in particular.

Or as John Kruk put it: "I ain't an athlete, lady, I'm a baseball player."

134. Srul Itza Posted: October 09, 2008 at 07:01 PM (#2975535)
I had no idea I should be rooting for fat, scrappy, unathletic Jews.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

I think you have an extra "s" in there somewhere indeed.

i remember going to a red sox game at fenway and a whole bunch of d-bags in the right field grand stand kept yelling at the angels' right fielder. they were pronouncing his name wrong, too. ####### d-bags.

This.

126. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: October 09, 2008 at 03:36 PM (#2975411)

I don't look for reasons to dislike him. It's a very natural reaction. I'd say it's based about 20% on his team, 60% on his stupid face and grooming habits. And the other 20% is I'm just a superficial loser.

Fixed.

bp/phredbird - nope, not that JT.

good, i was about to tell you to get out of BTF and answer some questions i sent you in an email!

:-)

I think we've found the source of the problem: Red Sox fans do, in general, cheer. So if that bugs you, it could be a problem, though I also think it's incredibly bizarre.

Yes, because that's exactly what I said. Now, I'm going to ask you to put on your big boy eyes and brain and reread my post. I'll wait.

.... Done? Okay.

Now that you've regained your ability to not jump to the ridiculous extreme, you certainly see that I'm saying that I am loud and drunk at a CFB game, so I don't notice really loud drunks. At a baseball game, I'm much more quiet, and the same really loud drunk might irritate me. And you'll also certainly see that nowhere did I say that people who cheer annoy me.

Jesus Christ.

If you don't want d bag Red Sox fans acting like d bags at your team's ballparks, become a community organizer and make sure that your team sells out, or comes close, so that the d bag Red Sox fans are outnumbered by lots. What goes on in Baltimore and Tampa (until this year) should be an embarrassment to those cities. Red Sox home games on the road. And, as I've said before, the owners of those teams appreciate those d bag Red Sox fans being there and spending their money there. Whatever the reason any city has for not supporting their team doesn't give them a reason to complain about all the d bag Red Sox fans that do show up to the games. It's their own fault. Buy up the seats, or STFU.

This seems come up about once a week now. As a SoCal resident who has seen transplant fans for years, here is my .02 yet again:

First, it is not an "embarrassment to those cities." It is a minor annoyance to the baseball fans in them and mildly frustrating to the players on those teams. When the Red Sox show up in PETCO, there are about 15,000 or more of their fans there, most of them wearing jerseys and hats and making a lot of noise. It is irritating but not some kind of civic disgrace for San Diego. It would be just as easy to say that Sweet Caroline , RSN and Ben Affleck are embarrassments to the city of Boston and to all Red Sox fans. Second, what do those two teams you mentioned have in common? Until one of them broke through this year, they had had several consecutive losing seasons each. No amount of "community organizing" is going to persuade people to support a losing team en masse. For further details on how losing and winning affect the attendance of baseball teams, check the 1966 and 1967 Red Sox numbers in the chart above. Fourth, the demographics of every city are different, and that affects the type of fan base you can build as does the duration of the franchise's existence.

So, while I can see how Red Sox fans are tired of this stuff, it is not as simple as "Just buy up the tickets or STFU" and it is, as I say every time, the price you pay for supporting a winner--and it is a very small one. Would you rather go back to hearing the "1918" chant? Articles/comments like this appear ONLY when a team is consistently kicking ass, because that is the kind of team that large numbers of people want to be associated with (with the anomalous exception of the Cubs).

Now, I'm going to ask you to put on your big boy eyes and brain and reread my post.

Which fans are the d-bags now? Because this is a d-bag comment.

I reread your post, and you said you like to watch the game quietly, and you are annoyed if someone stands up, screams their head off, and is probably at least half drunk. If this is the case, I can't imagine it is only Red Sox fans that fit that description. I don't drink at baseball games, but I do like to cheer - it's not the opera. I'm guessing most Sox fans on this board go to a lot of away games and are not obnoxious. So we're not really happy when someone makes these broad generalizations. Of course there are obnoxious fans, and since the Sox have been winning, there are plenty of bandwagon jumpers.

I'm sure it's a case of "All Sox fans suck, except the ones I know personally, they're okay." It's pretty much the same with judging the players - it's acceptable to not be a fan of Youkilis just because he looks douchey, but if you actually were dealing with him on a personal basis that'd be a crappy reason to judge someone.

Does anybody know why Sweet Caroline is played at Fenway Park in every single 8th inning?

It would be just as easy to say that Sweet Caroline , RSN and Ben Affleck are embarrassments to the city of Boston and to all Red Sox fans.

Hey, leave my man Affleck out of this. He in no way deserves to be lumped in with Sweet Caroline; which is a shitty song in it's own right, even without the annoyingness factor that comes from hearing it everytime I go to a game.

I don't look for reasons to dislike him. It's a very natural reaction. I'd say it's based about 20% on his team, 60% on his stupid face and grooming habits. Crying about balls and strikes has little to do with it.

Understood. Its 100% his team and you dont really have a point at all, you were just taking a potshot at him.

You might be dumber than kevin.

If it was 100% his team, I would hate all Red Sox players equally. I don't. Many I don't hate at all.

I never took any shot at him. You said anyone would want him on their team. I said I don't. That's the only point I've tried to make. It's not hard to understand. You don't wanna believe it, wtf do I care? I'm just an incompetent fan!

###### moron

Does anybody know why Sweet Caroline is played at Fenway Park in every single 8th inning?

Kerri Moore, the Red Sox' media relations manager, said it started with former Red Sox employee Billy Fitzpatrick, who worked in Fenway Park's control room from 1984-2003. In December 1998, his daughter, Caroline Fitzpatrick, was born. At a Red Sox game the following summer, with Billy nearby in the control room, former public address announcer Ed Brickley requested that ''Sweet Caroline" be played. The DJ that night was Amy Tobey, and when she played the popular Neil Diamond song, she could tell the fans loved it. For a while, she played it only if the Sox were winning or if the game was close, but the reaction was so strong it soon became a tradition to play it every night before the Sox' half of the eighth inning.

I've heard that the Boston-set movie “Beautiful Girls” had a scene where the cast sing Sweet Caroline huddled around a piano in a local bar. This may be the source of the "Oh, oh, oh" and "so good, so good" parts. They weren't part of the original.

It would be just as easy to say that Sweet Caroline , RSN and Ben Affleck are embarrassments to the city of Boston and to all Red Sox fans.

Well, Affleck is an embarrassment to anything he's involved in. He's the worst major actor* in Hollywood, and he picks terrible scripts, to boot. Although he may be a credible director. I didn't see Gone, Baby, Gone.

*Non-SNL alum division.

He was good in Good Will Hunting. But it's been all downhill for him since then. Nobody ever killed their career by going more "hollywood" than Affleck.

It's interesting how different the career trajectory, and how different the approach, has been for his good buddy Matt.

You might be dumber than kevin.

If it was 100% his team, I would hate all Red Sox players equally. I don't. Many I don't hate at all.

I never took any shot at him. You said anyone would want him on their team. I said I don't. That's the only point I've tried to make. It's not hard to understand. You don't wanna believe it, wtf do I care? I'm just an incompetent fan!

###### moron

Maybe most of the Sox players are just so damn likable you end up liking them despite yourself. Winning does that. Youk, OTOH, must offend you on some deep level so much that you cant help but pretend you dont like him on message boards. Strange, that. Perhaps, to your subconscious, he is the symbol of Boston's success. I dont claim to know. Maybe with therapy, and time...

If it was Bonds or some jerk or steroid user I could understand you not wanting them on your team despite what they bring on the field. Not saying Id agree with you, but I could understand your position. As it is, you dont really seem to have much reason to "hate" Youkilis. Grooming habits, arguing balls and strikes... these are just not legitimate reasons to hate. You must be quite the hate filled person if that stuff bothers you so much.

Youre being an incompetent poster with this stuff. A lower order primate, if you will. Your only point seems to be you irrationally hate some players and therefore wouldnt want them on your team. I obviously didnt mean literally that every single baseball fan in America would want Youkilis on their team. That wasnt the point I was trying to make, clearly, but if you want to claim victory on that end then go ahead... and I guess we'll all just have to be more careful with the words "never," "every" and "always..."

People hate Youkilis for the same reason people hated Paul O'Neill - everyone knew guys like that in high school, and everyone hated them then, too. I assume the primary reaction of non-Sox fans to Youk is something like, Calm down, jackass. Add in the fact that he badly needs a stylist - unless "axe murderer" is his preferred look - and the Red Sox recent success, and I expect most people to hate him.

If they were hating on Papi, though, or Lester, that would be weird.

I also think that I understand hatred of Papelbon, but it's wrong, and Papelbon is ten sizes of awesome squeezed into size eight bike shorts. See? Awesome.