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With the crazy Elias rankings, even if Santana were to get hurt and miss some of next season, he would likely still be a Type A free agent -- after all, Nick Johnson ranked higher than Geoff Jenkins this year even though Johnson missed the whole season -- meaning the Twins could get two top draft picks in 2009 rather than a few guys now.
If I'm the Twins, I don't settle in my trade negotiations. If that means not making a trade, so be it.
(And, of course, a lot can happen between now and July. Who's to say Johan wouldn't change his mind by then?)
So Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera. Might as well keep him and see how the season turns out.
Frankly I would think the Twins would be best off sucking it up and offering JS 6 and 120. They get a new stadium in 2009 or 2010. They can contend with him, especially if Young turns into Frank Robinson, which he could.
Wow, those Twins are great at drafting, if they can beat everyone else's odds and guarantee that they'll get players like that with their two compensatory picks. They should trade every player they have for about-to-be-free agents, let them declare, and then swoop up the picks.
Right. It was entirely a one-way discussion. And the Yankees got a deal. And Scott Boras is a dumb person. Right.
Do you honestly believe that there is anything to any of these rumors other than what the leaker wants you to hear? There is enough truth to keep us interested, keep us paying attention, keep usd reading Rosenthal, etc. The rest is spin.
July 30: Twins: "Johann, we got a deal for you to (whatever team you most want to be with) with a 100 year eleventy bazillion dollar extension." Johann: "I told you I wouldn't talk during the season."
Fantasy, my friends.
Pursuit requires, you know, effort. They made none.
I don't know. The bending over backwards to give ARod a larger contract than anybody but Boras anticipated - despite the Yankees no longer having the Texas money - must have required some effort. At least some stretching exercises, so they wouldn't pull a muscle bending so far.
Looking at Young's stats lines from his first two years, Frank Robinson is EXACTLY the man that I think of. By God, they're almost twins!
http://tinyurl.com/2w5v3c
Pursuit isn't really the right word. I thought they said they would not negotiate with A-Rod if he opted out. They're doing that as we write.
Please do try and be reasonable. Frank Robinson was a legit MVP candidate almost from the first day he stepped on a baseball field. As witnessed by him finishing in the top ten in the voting three times in his first four years in the league and then winning the award in his sixth season.
If Young becomes Gus Bell or Johnny Callison I think the Twins would be pleased.
Negotiate? I have $314 million dollars that says they gave in to his every demand. That's not negotiation! ;-)
To a Jennifer Love Hewitt video!
"...and you can't buy out my no-trade clause for any amount, either."
Hopefully the Yankees actually stick to this one otherwise I think the Twins will get enough leverage to get an insane package. I keep hoping the Dodgers come in and blow the Yankees and Red Sox offers out of the water. Then I can just pray Sabathia makes it to free agency.
Barry Zito's contract:
7 years/$126M (2007-13), plus 2014 club option:
07:$10M
08:$14.5M
09:$18.5M
10:$18.5M
11:$18.5M
12:$19M
13:$20M
14:$18M club option ($7M buyout)
Zito vs. Santana: ERA+ last four seasons:
2004 101 - 182
2005 113 - 155
2006 116 - 161
2007 098 - 130
I realize that Zito's contract makes no sense, given his performance. The Giants are just idiots. But it still would not surprise me if Santana's agent bases his value up against that deal. And if he does, Santana will be asking for a lot more than $20 million/year.
If I'm wrong, and he's a Red Sox, I still have Hughes, and the Red Sox don't have a whole bunch of talent.
Why should they blow them out the water? If they have an idea what the Yankees and Red Sox are offering, they should offer just a bit more. To blow them out the water and unnecessarily deplete your organization of valuable assets would be ridiculous.
There's no way the Yankees do the proposed trade w/o a negotiating window. If they don't sign him in the 72 hours, the trade doesn't happen.
What's Selig going to do? Fine him?
You can't be serious. The Twins have publicly announced that they are interested in trading him. How can it be tampering to say that you are interested in trading for him?
Forfeit a draft pick to the Twins, I dunno. I was just wondering if that was considered tampering or not. If he says "We won't trade for Johan and just wait to offer him a above market deal when he becomes a free agent." I'd assume that woudl be tampering.
Okay, change it to simply "beat" the Yankees and Red Sox offer.
I've wondered the same thing.
His dad got investigated for saying something a lot less direct about Randy Johnson a couple years ago, so I'm surprised MLB hasn't said something to him yet.
Steinbrenner on A-Rod on October 29
At last, something Yankee fans and Red Sox fans can agree on.
Yes, THAT would be tampering. Negotiating a trade in the press is not tampering. It's just dumb.
One difference is that the dropoff from A-Rod to the alternatives is far bigger than the dropoff from Santana to Bedard/Haren (especially factoring in contract/service time).
You can use that as evidence that it may not be the best to take Steinbrenner at his word, but there are differences in the two situations. The Yankees have already touched base with Oakland (as have the Red Sox) and Baltimore, so it seems they aren't putting all their eggs in one basket.
And I do hope the Twins call the Yankees out on their threat. The Red Sox and Yankees offers aren't too far apart, so if the Twins feel like the Yankees are pressuring them into a lesser deal just because they included Hughes, the Twins might just go ahead and make a deal with the Red Sox. Not only would they receive a talented enough offer but they'd be sticking it to the Yanks as well.
Alberto Gonzalez??? Really????? OK, so he's an errant fist pump away from filling in at SS and reminding Yankees fans what defense is, but this guy can't really be the "sticking point", can he? He might be a useful player for a team looking for a SS, but the Yankees don't really have a place for him in their short or long term plans.
I hope this ends soon too, and I suspect it will tomorrow. I think the Twins are trying to extract Lester along with Ellsbury and Lowrie, and if they can't, they will decide between the Ellsbury, Lowrie, and minor league pitcher(s) and the Yanks offer, whatever it is.
But I don't think Hank's bluster is going to force the Twins hand one way or another.
Why should we even think that's the desired effect? If Hank thought that he could intimidate Smith into accepting the current offer, he'd call Smith on his cell and scream at him, or put George Costanza on a plane to the Twin Cities to deliver the message. Hank is just playing to LCD Yankee fans, and so far it seems to be working pretty well for him. Also, he really likes getting his name in the papers.
Is Crisp for two years at $4.75M, $5.75M followed by an $8M option/$0.5M buyout something they really want to spend for?
Have they? I don't remember seeing any official say that. Bill Smith sure hasn't....he's been very tight lipped as he should be. I heard Jerry Bell say something to the effect that the team's job is to field a competitive team, but necessarily make any player the highest paid player in the game...that's as close as I've heard. Every other article is "a source close to the Twins".
I don't think what Hank is doing is tampering, but it's close enough that Selig should call him and tell him to keep quiet before he crosses the line.
It's no different than Moreno and Sabean complaining about the Marlins a few days ago as it relates to Cabrera, is it?
Have they? I don't remember seeing any official say that. Bill Smith sure hasn't
Does he need to? They are engaging in trade talks, aren't they? I mean, you can't seriously be arguing that the Twins aren't trying to trade Santana, are you? And all Hank Steinbrenner is doing is spouting off about those talks.
If I'm the Twins, I first tell New York they can keep their awesome Melky, and ask for:
Hughes, Action Jackson, Alan Horne and Alberto Gonzalez.
If Yankees don't bite, I ask Theo for:
One of Lester/Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, Reddick.
And then whatever happens I call TB and offer Andrew something tempting (Neshek? Bonser?) for Elijah Dukes. Ship him in under armed guard and tell him he starts every day in CF as long as he lives with your chosen mentor and keeps his nose and weenie clean. What's Jesse Ventura doing these days?
If Hank wanted to put that deadline on the deal, he could have done it privately and if the Twins were actually worried, they could have taken the deal and announced to the world that once the Yanks put Hughes in the deal, they had what they really wanted. Now, if the deal happens tomorrow, it looks like the Twins backed off on their demands and gave away the best pitcher in baseball for less than they wanted. Do you really think that's how Smith wants to make his reputation among fellow GMs?
Not much different, no, but slightly so. The main difference is that Santana's trade would require a contract extension, and Cabrera's would not. Because of that, I think everyone should be quieter about what is being negotiated. There probably isn't an absolute need for that, but it makes things a little dicier. It's not hard to imagine Hank slipping up and going one step further and saying "they want players A, B & C, and then we have to sign Santana to a contract for $X and that's too much"...that would cross the line to me.
Does he need to? They are engaging in trade talks, aren't they? I mean, you can't seriously be arguing that the Twins aren't trying to trade Santana, are you? And all Hank Steinbrenner is doing is spouting off about those talks.
No, they're definitely trying to trade him, but they are going about it the quiet way...no official quotes...that keeps them on the good side of tampering rules.
I could see that. Especially if the Yankees have heard the $$ Santana wants, and it's scary. Maybe he's asking for 7/175.
If they don't want to give up Hughes and pay that, this could be a way to signal to Boston, "you don't need to raise your bid".
There's no way Minn. takes Boston's last offer, so maybe Hank's hoping Minn. keeps Santana and the Yanks get a shot at him in July, or as a FA.
This deadline is meaningless because the Yankees make hollow threats. It's also meaningless because the Twins are the ones with the power.
It's this part that could be tampering because Santana has a no-trade, and this could be interpreted as "exercise your no-trade if its anyone but us, because we'll pay you more."
It seems like a lot of the owners/GMs/Bill James have been awfully cavalier of late about discussing players on other teams. I guess since the commish is only interested who took steroids 10 years ago, they feel free to do whatever they want without fear of reprisal.
Well, of course he (and his agent) have figured that out. That doesn't really change the point, though. Look, I think the thing is funny, but if I were, well, someone in the Yankee organization who didn't care too much about his job, I'd tell Hank to quiet down.
In the meantime, could they just freaking finish a deal that gets me Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Lester? Come on Theo, think of your rotation next year!
The logic is that both the Yanks and Sox think the price in prospects/$$ for Santana is too high (long term), but both are very afraid of him going to the other team (short term).
By Hank signalling that they are pulling back, it means the Sox can pull back, and let Santana stay in Minn., or go to LA.
So, you don't think there is an agreement involving two parties in place? Really? If there's an agreement, there's pretty clearly effort from the Yankees here.
I hope your comments in this thread are your idea of a joke. Otherwise...wow.
I love this guy's quotes! He's great copy.
Are we sure it was Selig that was the car salesman? :P
Come shop at Crazy Hank's!
Man, Darren is going to have a field day with this. Not that I can blame him in this instance.
Geez, no wonder he always seems so high strung. If I had waited 30 years I'd be crazy, too.
If that bit about Yankees/Red Sox or bust is true, Santana is sure doing his best to squeeze Bill Smith's testacles on this. Don't know if he asked Smith to turn his head and cough first, though.
Who knows what Haren and Bedard will go for, but it's obviously possible that the "winner" of the Johan sweepstakes ends up the worse off.
I've yet to see a good argument for why Hank should be quiet. He's keeping the Mets off the back page, he's feeding their fans winter blahs, and he's saying reasonable if blunt (though probably not quite true) things. Don't we groan about bland owners and bland GMs? He's fun, a lot more fun than his dad was most of the time.
Not really. The Twins aren't willing to pay Santana what it'd take to sign him and they don't want to lose him just for draft choices. Teams interested in making a realistic offer have had ample time, so there's not much chance that someone swoops in with a better deal than what's on the table now. The Twins know that the Yanks could trade for Dan Haren instead, and that the Red Sox might respond by lowering their offer for Santana. If the Twins don't make the best deal that is available now, they may have to settle for less later.
I don't get this. What more pressing business do the Yankees have rather than trading for the best pitcher in baseball or assuring that if the Red Sox do so, it will come at a premium? The Yankees benefit more from forcing the Red Sox to trade Ellsbury AND Buchholz AND Lowrie in a Santana deal than they do from brushing up on available Rule 5 picks.
The Phillies do this all the time too ... they don't want to be "used" to bid up a free agent who's just going to take their offer to the Mets. I'm sure their front office is terribly busy with all sorts of minutia of which I am completely ignorant, but it seems to me that forcing your chief rival to overspend on a free agent gives some not insignificant benefit back to you, as long as you can handle the hit to your ego.
We can parse this all day long, and defenders of the Yankees brass can harp on words like "pursue" all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that anyone in high stakes negotiation with the Yankees at this time, in light of how the ARod situation played out, would have to take any Yankee ultimatum with a huge grain of salt. (Even larger than the usual grain of salt that anyone should apply to any ultimatum in high stakes negotiations.)
The mere fact that the Yankees' Santana drop dead deadline appars so comical in light of the ARod negotiations leads me to think that they are making this unnecessary ultimatum solely to stick to it, thereby giving their word some additional credibility in future negotiations. Their caving on two huge ultimatums so close to each other, considered along with Hank's cowboy tactics with the media, would strike me as having a huge detrimental impact on all of their future trade or free agent negotiations for quite some time.
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