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Monday, December 03, 2007

FOX: Rosenthal - Twins better act fast on Santana

It might be now or never for the Twins if they wish to trade left-hander Johan Santana. According to major-league sources, Santana has informed the Twins that he would not waive his no-trade clause during the season, ending any chance that he could be moved before the July 31 non-waiver deadline.

Players with no-trade protection occasionally adopt such positions when they are in the free-agent years, fearing that their performance could suffer if they change teams and/or leagues just months before hitting the open market.
...
It is in Santana’s interest to be traded now because he will require a monster contract to approve a deal. It is expected that the contract would be at least six years and $120 million, and rather than enter the season with the risk of injury, he would prefer the deal to be struck as soon as possible.

AP: Yankees set Monday deadline in talks with Minnesota Twins on Johan Santana

The New York Yankees likely will pull out of trade talks for Johan Santana if the Minnesota Twins don’t make a decision by late Monday. “I’m not going to be played against the Red Sox…” Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said Sunday. “So if they want the best offer that has been offered to them, then they need to make up their minds.”

NTNgod Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:20 AM | 73 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
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   1. Jonk Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:25 AM (#2631651)
If Santana won't waive his no-trade midseason, and if they don't find a trade offer they like, they might as well keep him.

With the crazy Elias rankings, even if Santana were to get hurt and miss some of next season, he would likely still be a Type A free agent -- after all, Nick Johnson ranked higher than Geoff Jenkins this year even though Johnson missed the whole season -- meaning the Twins could get two top draft picks in 2009 rather than a few guys now.

If I'm the Twins, I don't settle in my trade negotiations. If that means not making a trade, so be it.

(And, of course, a lot can happen between now and July. Who's to say Johan wouldn't change his mind by then?)
   2. NTNgod Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:30 AM (#2631654)
So with their recent drafting history, they'd probably turn the two picks into a decent/good pitching prospect and a hitter who can't hit :P
   3. The Answer to the TWolves (GMoney) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:33 AM (#2631655)
So with their recent drafting history, they'd probably turn the two picks into a decent/good pitching prospect and a hitter who can't hit :P


So Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera. Might as well keep him and see how the season turns out.
   4. Tim D Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:33 AM (#2631656)
This just in: Yankees won't pursue ARod if he opts out. Give me break.

Frankly I would think the Twins would be best off sucking it up and offering JS 6 and 120. They get a new stadium in 2009 or 2010. They can contend with him, especially if Young turns into Frank Robinson, which he could.
   5. Sam M. Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:39 AM (#2631662)
The Yankees' deadline may not mean anything, but I have to think Santana's little bombshell does. Johan is playing some hardball to force their hand, taking away the leverage they might have to tell other teams they'll just sit back and wait until July. If I'm a potential trading partner, I know that threat now is pretty hollow . . . .
   6. Best Regards, Larry Mahnken (Dewey is a slacker) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:41 AM (#2631664)
This just in: Yankees won't pursue ARod if he opts out. Give me break.
This just in: the Yankees didn't pursue A-Rod at all.
   7. GregD Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:42 AM (#2631665)
So with their recent drafting history, they'd probably turn the two picks into a decent/good pitching prospect and a hitter who can't hit :P



So Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera. Might as well keep him and see how the season turns out.


Wow, those Twins are great at drafting, if they can beat everyone else's odds and guarantee that they'll get players like that with their two compensatory picks. They should trade every player they have for about-to-be-free agents, let them declare, and then swoop up the picks.
   8. andrewberg Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:46 AM (#2631667)
Larry, that's like saying that a desperate man who buys a woman a $20k ring to get her to marry him is not pursuing her as long as he doesn't grovel excessively. If A-Rod came to the Yankees and said that he changed his mind and would come back for the same contract out of which he had just opted (same length and salary), then they would not have pursued him.
   9. Tim D Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:50 AM (#2631671)
"This just in: the Yankees didn't pursue A-Rod at all."

Right. It was entirely a one-way discussion. And the Yankees got a deal. And Scott Boras is a dumb person. Right.

Do you honestly believe that there is anything to any of these rumors other than what the leaker wants you to hear? There is enough truth to keep us interested, keep us paying attention, keep usd reading Rosenthal, etc. The rest is spin.

July 30: Twins: "Johann, we got a deal for you to (whatever team you most want to be with) with a 100 year eleventy bazillion dollar extension." Johann: "I told you I wouldn't talk during the season."

Fantasy, my friends.
   10. Best Regards, Larry Mahnken (Dewey is a slacker) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 12:53 AM (#2631675)
Larry, that's like saying that a desperate man who buys a woman a $20k ring to get her to marry him is not pursuing her as long as he doesn't grovel excessively. If A-Rod came to the Yankees and said that he changed his mind and would come back for the same contract out of which he had just opted (same length and salary), then they would not have pursued him.
No, it's like the woman coming to the man and saying that if he gives her that particular ring she'll marry him.

Pursuit requires, you know, effort. They made none.
   11. akrasian Posted: December 03, 2007 at 01:05 AM (#2631684)
Pursuit requires, you know, effort. They made none.

I don't know. The bending over backwards to give ARod a larger contract than anybody but Boras anticipated - despite the Yankees no longer having the Texas money - must have required some effort. At least some stretching exercises, so they wouldn't pull a muscle bending so far.
   12. OCD SS Posted: December 03, 2007 at 01:14 AM (#2631693)
Hank's been doing his Kegel exercises...
   13. jonm Posted: December 03, 2007 at 01:15 AM (#2631694)
They can contend with him, especially if Young turns into Frank Robinson, which he could.


Looking at Young's stats lines from his first two years, Frank Robinson is EXACTLY the man that I think of. By God, they're almost twins!

http://tinyurl.com/2w5v3c
   14. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: December 03, 2007 at 01:23 AM (#2631702)
Pursuit requires, you know, effort. They made none.

Pursuit isn't really the right word. I thought they said they would not negotiate with A-Rod if he opted out. They're doing that as we write.
   15. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2007 at 01:29 AM (#2631706)
Tim:

Please do try and be reasonable. Frank Robinson was a legit MVP candidate almost from the first day he stepped on a baseball field. As witnessed by him finishing in the top ten in the voting three times in his first four years in the league and then winning the award in his sixth season.

If Young becomes Gus Bell or Johnny Callison I think the Twins would be pleased.
   16. Valentine Posted: December 03, 2007 at 01:37 AM (#2631710)
I thought they said they would not negotiate with A-Rod if he opted out.

Negotiate? I have $314 million dollars that says they gave in to his every demand. That's not negotiation! ;-)
   17. Rough Carrigan Posted: December 03, 2007 at 01:40 AM (#2631712)
Hank's been doing his Kegel exercises...

To a Jennifer Love Hewitt video!
   18. NTNgod Posted: December 03, 2007 at 01:58 AM (#2631720)
AP:
The New York Yankees likely will pull out of trade talks for Johan Santana if the Minnesota Twins don't make a decision by late Monday.

"I'm not going to be played against the Red Sox. That's not something I'll do. That's not something the Yankees should ever do, and that's I think what they're trying to do now," Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said Sunday. "So if they want the best offer that has been offered to them, then they need to make up their minds."
...
Steinbrenner wouldn't set a specific time Monday for pulling out.

"We'll see how it goes, but this is not an act. It's not a bluff. It's just reality," he said. "Because as much as I want Santana, and you can make that clear -- for his sake, to know that I do want him -- but the fact is that I'm not going to play the game. We've made them the best offer. And at this point, it's not going to get any better. So they can decide. At this point, it's up to them. I don't think they want to lose us in this thing, obviously. Nobody wants to lose the Yankees in a negotiation."
...
Steinbrenner said the Yankees didn't want to wait too long, miss out on Santana and then find out it was too late to get involved in talks for other pitchers, such as Oakland's Dan Haren.

"We need to get things straightened out, and not wait around for them to run back to Boston and back to us, and then back to Boston," he said. "I'm not going to do that."
   19. NJ is feeling better Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:09 AM (#2631724)
I think I'm in love with Hank Steinbrenner's openness. I'm not sure how good this is for actually making moves and getting it done, but as a fan, I appreciate knowing what's going on.
   20. Itch Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:21 AM (#2631730)
July 30: Twins: "Johann, we got a deal for you to (whatever team you most want to be with) with a 100 year eleventy bazillion dollar extension." Johann: "I told you I wouldn't talk during the season..."

"...and you can't buy out my no-trade clause for any amount, either."
   21. Social media assassin (Templeusox) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:21 AM (#2631732)
What a blowhard.
   22. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:25 AM (#2631736)
I wonder if the Twins will even buy these threats.

Hopefully the Yankees actually stick to this one otherwise I think the Twins will get enough leverage to get an insane package. I keep hoping the Dodgers come in and blow the Yankees and Red Sox offers out of the water. Then I can just pray Sabathia makes it to free agency.
   23. Rich Rifkin I Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:33 AM (#2631740)
"the contract would be at least six years and $120 million"

Barry Zito's contract:

7 years/$126M (2007-13), plus 2014 club option:

07:$10M
08:$14.5M
09:$18.5M
10:$18.5M
11:$18.5M
12:$19M
13:$20M
14:$18M club option ($7M buyout)

Zito vs. Santana: ERA+ last four seasons:

2004 101 - 182
2005 113 - 155
2006 116 - 161
2007 098 - 130

I realize that Zito's contract makes no sense, given his performance. The Giants are just idiots. But it still would not surprise me if Santana's agent bases his value up against that deal. And if he does, Santana will be asking for a lot more than $20 million/year.
   24. bibigon Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:34 AM (#2631742)
If I'm Cashman and I find this threat by Santana to be credible, I probably pull Hughes out of the Santana sweeps. If there's a real chance of Santana seeing free agency even if I don't trade for him, then I'm not giving up Hughes. I'm taking my chances that the Red Sox aren't serious about acquiring him, and trying to sign him then.

If I'm wrong, and he's a Red Sox, I still have Hughes, and the Red Sox don't have a whole bunch of talent.
   25. Norcan Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:38 AM (#2631744)
I keep hoping the Dodgers come in and blow the Yankees and Red Sox offers out of the water.


Why should they blow them out the water? If they have an idea what the Yankees and Red Sox are offering, they should offer just a bit more. To blow them out the water and unnecessarily deplete your organization of valuable assets would be ridiculous.
   26. The Answer to the TWolves (GMoney) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:39 AM (#2631745)
Shouldn't that be considered tampering by Steinbrenner to mention another team's player when they haven't acquired them yet?
   27. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:41 AM (#2631749)
If I'm Cashman and I find this threat by Santana to be credible, I probably pull Hughes out of the Santana sweeps. If there's a real chance of Santana seeing free agency even if I don't trade for him, then I'm not giving up Hughes. I'm taking my chances that the Red Sox aren't serious about acquiring him, and trying to sign him then.

There's no way the Yankees do the proposed trade w/o a negotiating window. If they don't sign him in the 72 hours, the trade doesn't happen.
   28. gay guy in cut-offs smoking the objective pipe Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:42 AM (#2631750)
Shouldn't that be considered tampering by Steinbrenner to mention another team's player when they haven't acquired them yet?

What's Selig going to do? Fine him?
   29. OCD SS Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:43 AM (#2631751)
I'd pay good money to hear Hank try to negotiate with Billy Beane. That's the sort of thing that should be on pay per view.
   30. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:43 AM (#2631752)
Shouldn't that be considered tampering by Steinbrenner to mention another team's player when they haven't acquired them yet?

You can't be serious. The Twins have publicly announced that they are interested in trading him. How can it be tampering to say that you are interested in trading for him?
   31. The Answer to the TWolves (GMoney) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:43 AM (#2631753)
What's Selig going to do? Fine him?


Forfeit a draft pick to the Twins, I dunno. I was just wondering if that was considered tampering or not. If he says "We won't trade for Johan and just wait to offer him a above market deal when he becomes a free agent." I'd assume that woudl be tampering.
   32. Mayor Blomberg Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:44 AM (#2631754)
Good point. Johann might otherwise have thought it was a slow week at the office and all this negotiation was just Hank screwing around to see what it's like to be an owner!
   33. NJ is feeling better Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:46 AM (#2631755)
I really wish this whole thing would come to a conclusion though. I'm tired of holding my breath.
   34. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:46 AM (#2631756)
Why should they blow them out the water? If they have an idea what the Yankees and Red Sox are offering, they should offer just a bit more. To blow them out the water and unnecessarily deplete your organization of valuable assets would be ridiculous.


Okay, change it to simply "beat" the Yankees and Red Sox offer.
   35. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:47 AM (#2631758)
Shouldn't that be considered tampering by Steinbrenner to mention another team's player when they haven't acquired them yet?


I've wondered the same thing.

His dad got investigated for saying something a lot less direct about Randy Johnson a couple years ago, so I'm surprised MLB hasn't said something to him yet.
   36. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:51 AM (#2631761)
Steinbrenner on Santana on December 1

"I’m not going to be played against the Red Sox....We'll see how it goes, but this is not an act. It's not a bluff. It's just reality,"


Steinbrenner on A-Rod on October 29

"It's clear he didn't want to be a Yankee,...He doesn't understand the privilege of being a Yankee on a team where the owners are willing to pay $200 million to put a winning product on the field...I don't want anybody on my team that doesn't want to be a Yankee....We're not going to back down...It's goodbye."
   37. gay guy in cut-offs smoking the objective pipe Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:51 AM (#2631762)
I really wish this whole thing would come to a conclusion though. I'm tired of holding my breath.

At last, something Yankee fans and Red Sox fans can agree on.
   38. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:51 AM (#2631763)
If he says "We won't trade for Johan and just wait to offer him a above market deal when he becomes a free agent." I'd assume that woudl be tampering.

Yes, THAT would be tampering. Negotiating a trade in the press is not tampering. It's just dumb.
   39. NTNgod Posted: December 03, 2007 at 02:57 AM (#2631765)
Steinbrenner on A-Rod on October 29

One difference is that the dropoff from A-Rod to the alternatives is far bigger than the dropoff from Santana to Bedard/Haren (especially factoring in contract/service time).

You can use that as evidence that it may not be the best to take Steinbrenner at his word, but there are differences in the two situations. The Yankees have already touched base with Oakland (as have the Red Sox) and Baltimore, so it seems they aren't putting all their eggs in one basket.
   40. Norcan Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:03 AM (#2631769)
I don't see how it's tampering. Everything H. Steinbrenner said is already out there, namely, that the Yankees have set a deadline. He's merely giving his reasons for why that's appropriate, which might be annoying to both the Twins and Yankees but it's within his rights.

And I do hope the Twins call the Yankees out on their threat. The Red Sox and Yankees offers aren't too far apart, so if the Twins feel like the Yankees are pressuring them into a lesser deal just because they included Hughes, the Twins might just go ahead and make a deal with the Red Sox. Not only would they receive a talented enough offer but they'd be sticking it to the Yanks as well.
   41. smilinmike Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:04 AM (#2631770)
The sticking point with the Yankees is the identity of the third player. The Yankees want it to be a mid-level prospect, but the Twins have asked for players such as Class AAA shortstop Alberto Gonzalez and Class AA right-hander Alan Horne.


Alberto Gonzalez??? Really????? OK, so he's an errant fist pump away from filling in at SS and reminding Yankees fans what defense is, but this guy can't really be the "sticking point", can he? He might be a useful player for a team looking for a SS, but the Yankees don't really have a place for him in their short or long term plans.
   42. Eric in Madison Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:08 AM (#2631771)
Ah, the comedy stylings of Hank Steinbrenner. It's wonderful entertainment. I have no idea if he's serious; well, let me rephrase. I assume he's serious right now, but who knows what will actually happen if Monday comes and goes.

I hope this ends soon too, and I suspect it will tomorrow. I think the Twins are trying to extract Lester along with Ellsbury and Lowrie, and if they can't, they will decide between the Ellsbury, Lowrie, and minor league pitcher(s) and the Yanks offer, whatever it is.

But I don't think Hank's bluster is going to force the Twins hand one way or another.
   43. NTNgod Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:10 AM (#2631772)
Latest from the Globe - not really anything new:
If Jacoby Ellsbury is included in the package, the rest of the package won't include Jon Lester or Clay Buchholz. In other words, the Red Sox are taking a very systematic approach to this.. They're telling the Twins, you can have one of these guys, but the rest of the package won't include our three best prospects. The rest of the package will be something less than the Twins desire.

The Twins wanted to hear the Yankees say OK on Phillip Hughes and apparenly they have heard that. But the Yankees, according to sources, are taking a similar approach to Boston: take Hughes and maybe Melky Cabrera, but don't expect much after that.
   44. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:15 AM (#2631774)
But I don't think Hank's bluster is going to force the Twins hand one way or another.

Why should we even think that's the desired effect? If Hank thought that he could intimidate Smith into accepting the current offer, he'd call Smith on his cell and scream at him, or put George Costanza on a plane to the Twin Cities to deliver the message. Hank is just playing to LCD Yankee fans, and so far it seems to be working pretty well for him. Also, he really likes getting his name in the papers.
   45. Mayor Blomberg Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:18 AM (#2631775)
Makes sense on both teams' (NYY/BOS) sides. Yes, he's had a splendid career to date, but it's only a year they'r bargaining for. They can take their runs at him next year, or pursue Haren or Bedard. If the Twins are OK with draft picks, then fina all around.

Is Crisp for two years at $4.75M, $5.75M followed by an $8M option/$0.5M buyout something they really want to spend for?
   46. Craig in MN Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:19 AM (#2631776)
You can't be serious. The Twins have publicly announced that they are interested in trading him. How can it be tampering to say that you are interested in trading for him?

Have they? I don't remember seeing any official say that. Bill Smith sure hasn't....he's been very tight lipped as he should be. I heard Jerry Bell say something to the effect that the team's job is to field a competitive team, but necessarily make any player the highest paid player in the game...that's as close as I've heard. Every other article is "a source close to the Twins".

I don't think what Hank is doing is tampering, but it's close enough that Selig should call him and tell him to keep quiet before he crosses the line.
   47. NTNgod Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:25 AM (#2631778)
In regards to the tampering, I don't think saying "We had trade negotations for player X, we'd love to have him, but we think his team wants too damn much in return" even remotely qualifies. Impolite, not smart, etc... sure.
   48. b Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:25 AM (#2631779)
I don't think what Hank is doing is tampering, but it's close enough that Selig should call him and tell him to keep quiet before he crosses the line.


It's no different than Moreno and Sabean complaining about the Marlins a few days ago as it relates to Cabrera, is it?
   49. Norcan Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:29 AM (#2631781)

Have they? I don't remember seeing any official say that. Bill Smith sure hasn't


Does he need to? They are engaging in trade talks, aren't they? I mean, you can't seriously be arguing that the Twins aren't trying to trade Santana, are you? And all Hank Steinbrenner is doing is spouting off about those talks.
   50. Margo Adams FC Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:33 AM (#2631783)
As a Sox fan, I'm still hoping they deal Lester, Ellsbury and Lowrie and get this done.

If I'm the Twins, I first tell New York they can keep their awesome Melky, and ask for:

Hughes, Action Jackson, Alan Horne and Alberto Gonzalez.

If Yankees don't bite, I ask Theo for:

One of Lester/Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, Reddick.

And then whatever happens I call TB and offer Andrew something tempting (Neshek? Bonser?) for Elijah Dukes. Ship him in under armed guard and tell him he starts every day in CF as long as he lives with your chosen mentor and keeps his nose and weenie clean. What's Jesse Ventura doing these days?
   51. billyshears Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:34 AM (#2631786)
I don't think this is a good move by Hank, unless he doesn't actually want to make the deal and is looking for a way out. It's one thing to put a gun to somebody's head in a negotiation. It's another thing to tell the entire world that you're are putting a gun to somebody's head. One of the key's to getting what you want in a deal is to give the other party a way to save face while still acceding to your demands. Nobody wants to fold like a lawn chair on a deal and people are even less apt to do so if the whole world will know that they are folding like a lawn chair.

If Hank wanted to put that deadline on the deal, he could have done it privately and if the Twins were actually worried, they could have taken the deal and announced to the world that once the Yanks put Hughes in the deal, they had what they really wanted. Now, if the deal happens tomorrow, it looks like the Twins backed off on their demands and gave away the best pitcher in baseball for less than they wanted. Do you really think that's how Smith wants to make his reputation among fellow GMs?
   52. Craig in MN Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:38 AM (#2631790)
It's no different than Moreno and Sabean complaining about the Marlins a few days ago as it relates to Cabrera, is it?

Not much different, no, but slightly so. The main difference is that Santana's trade would require a contract extension, and Cabrera's would not. Because of that, I think everyone should be quieter about what is being negotiated. There probably isn't an absolute need for that, but it makes things a little dicier. It's not hard to imagine Hank slipping up and going one step further and saying "they want players A, B & C, and then we have to sign Santana to a contract for $X and that's too much"...that would cross the line to me.


Does he need to? They are engaging in trade talks, aren't they? I mean, you can't seriously be arguing that the Twins aren't trying to trade Santana, are you? And all Hank Steinbrenner is doing is spouting off about those talks.

No, they're definitely trying to trade him, but they are going about it the quiet way...no official quotes...that keeps them on the good side of tampering rules.
   53. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:39 AM (#2631791)
I don't think this is a good move by Hank, unless he doesn't actually want to make the deal and is looking for a way out.

I could see that. Especially if the Yankees have heard the $$ Santana wants, and it's scary. Maybe he's asking for 7/175.

If they don't want to give up Hughes and pay that, this could be a way to signal to Boston, "you don't need to raise your bid".

There's no way Minn. takes Boston's last offer, so maybe Hank's hoping Minn. keeps Santana and the Yanks get a shot at him in July, or as a FA.
   54. Mayor Blomberg Posted: December 03, 2007 at 03:49 AM (#2631796)
Edit: I don't quite follow the logic, Snapper. The Sox will offer more if they want him, won't if they don't. They know they can either extend him now or bid him later.
   55. Darren Posted: December 03, 2007 at 04:13 AM (#2631810)
How about this then: before the season, Cashman said, 'ARod can play under his current contract but we're not going to try to extend him.' Then they did exactly that. This fall Cashman said that if ARod opts out, they would not 'participate in his free agency.' They did. They've previously said that they wouldn't have an arrangement like Clemens's Houston travel schedule, then they made exactly that arrangement.

This deadline is meaningless because the Yankees make hollow threats. It's also meaningless because the Twins are the ones with the power.
   56. Eric in Madison Posted: December 03, 2007 at 04:14 AM (#2631812)
"Because as much as I want Santana, and you can make that clear -- for his sake, to know that I do want him --

It's this part that could be tampering because Santana has a no-trade, and this could be interpreted as "exercise your no-trade if its anyone but us, because we'll pay you more."
   57. Darren Posted: December 03, 2007 at 04:21 AM (#2631818)
With the question of tampering, it doesn't matter if the Twins have announced that they want to trade Santana. The comments in question could lead the player to not resign with their team or not accept a trade to another team, etc.

It seems like a lot of the owners/GMs/Bill James have been awfully cavalier of late about discussing players on other teams. I guess since the commish is only interested who took steroids 10 years ago, they feel free to do whatever they want without fear of reprisal.
   58. Mayor Blomberg Posted: December 03, 2007 at 04:22 AM (#2631819)
You think he's not figured that out, Eric? Seems like CW on this board that no one overpays like a Stein.
   59. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: December 03, 2007 at 04:24 AM (#2631821)
If there is anybody in the MLB you don't get bluffed by, it's Hank Steinbrenner.
   60. Eric in Madison Posted: December 03, 2007 at 04:32 AM (#2631824)
You think he's not figured that out, Eric?

Well, of course he (and his agent) have figured that out. That doesn't really change the point, though. Look, I think the thing is funny, but if I were, well, someone in the Yankee organization who didn't care too much about his job, I'd tell Hank to quiet down.

In the meantime, could they just freaking finish a deal that gets me Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Lester? Come on Theo, think of your rotation next year!
   61. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 04:36 AM (#2631828)
Edit: I don't quite follow the logic, Snapper. The Sox will offer more if they want him, won't if they don't. They know they can either extend him now or bid him later.

The logic is that both the Yanks and Sox think the price in prospects/$$ for Santana is too high (long term), but both are very afraid of him going to the other team (short term).

By Hank signalling that they are pulling back, it means the Sox can pull back, and let Santana stay in Minn., or go to LA.
   62. pkb33 Posted: December 03, 2007 at 04:43 AM (#2631835)
Pursuit requires, you know, effort. They made none.

So, you don't think there is an agreement involving two parties in place? Really? If there's an agreement, there's pretty clearly effort from the Yankees here.

I hope your comments in this thread are your idea of a joke. Otherwise...wow.
   63. Mayor Blomberg Posted: December 03, 2007 at 04:55 AM (#2631843)
pkb33: far be it from me to put words in someone's mouth, but I believe the point being made is that the NYY said that if ARod left, they wouldn't pursue, ie: bid, on him with others in a FA process. They have not, yet. They did not call Boras or ARod, per anything I've read. ARod arranged the meeting through intermediaries and came to the NYY's house.
   64. Best Regards, Larry Mahnken (Dewey is a slacker) Posted: December 03, 2007 at 05:18 AM (#2631850)
If you think the Yankees pursued A-Rod, you need to look up the word pursue.
   65. NTNgod Posted: December 03, 2007 at 05:18 AM (#2631851)
More Santana rumors, and best of all, more Hank, in an interview with the NY Times: (RR)

“This is not a bluff; it’s just reality,” the senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said in a telephone interview Sunday night. “It’s a fact. The Yankees will not be used to jack up the price on people — whether by agents or other teams — ever again. That’s over.”
...
[The Twins] are lukewarm about Cabrera and would prefer Boston’s Jacoby Ellsbury as their new center fielder, but the Red Sox will not trade Ellsbury and pitcher Jon Lester unless the Twins expand the deal, possibly to include closer Joe Nathan.

That is unlikely, and it emboldens the Yankees’ stance. If they back out and the Red Sox do not cave in to the Twins’ demands, Minnesota will seem to have no trade partner, considering that Santana would require a contract extension of at least six years and $120 million to approve the deal.
...
Steinbrenner said the Twins and the Yankees had not haggled over the third player in their potential trade, because Minnesota had not accepted the premise of a deal centered on Hughes and Cabrera. But if the Twins asked for Kennedy or a comparable prospect — a group that includes Dellin Betances, Alan Horne, Austin Jackson and José Tabata — the Yankees would pass.

How can I go any higher?” Steinbrenner said. “What do they want — Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera? I can’t do that kind of thing. It’s crazy. It’s suicidal. In the past 20 or 30 years, teams have always asked more from the Yankees than they have of anybody else, and that’s going to stop. I’ve made the best offer Minnesota is going to get, and the fact is, it’s an offer we can go away happy and they can go away happy.”

I love this guy's quotes! He's great copy.

Are we sure it was Selig that was the car salesman? :P
Come shop at Crazy Hank's!
   66. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 03, 2007 at 05:27 AM (#2631855)
In the past 20 or 30 years, teams have always asked more from the Yankees than they have of anybody else, and that’s going to stop.


Man, Darren is going to have a field day with this. Not that I can blame him in this instance.
   67. Margo Adams FC Posted: December 03, 2007 at 05:34 AM (#2631859)
Hank has been waiting for like 30 years to play with his toy. Like any small child, he just can't help himself right now.
   68. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 03, 2007 at 05:39 AM (#2631862)
Hank has been waiting for like 30 years to play with his toy. Like any small child, he just can't help himself right now.


Geez, no wonder he always seems so high strung. If I had waited 30 years I'd be crazy, too.
   69. NTNgod Posted: December 03, 2007 at 05:45 AM (#2631867)
ProJo: McAdam - Red Sox raising ante for Santana
According to a source familiar with Santana’s thinking, the pitcher over the weekend was growing tired of the uncertainty and had given the Twins several ultimatums.

Santana, who has a full-no trade clause and intends to wield it to land a six-year contract extension from any team striking a deal for him, told the Twins that he would veto a trade to any team except the Yankees or Red Sox. He also warned them that he would not accept a deal in-season, forcing the Twins to move him this week or lose him to free agency after the 2008 season, when his current contract expires.

Even as the Sox monitor the Santana talks, they remain interested in at least two other starters said to be available at the meetings. Don't know if he asked him to cough, though.

Oakland’s Dan Haren, whose acquisition cost would be nearly that of Santana but who is under contract for another three years at $15.4 million — just slightly more than Santana’s $13.5 million for 2008 — is one target.

Yesterday, indications surfaced that the Sox have also had discussions with the Milwaukee Brewers regarding Ben Sheets.


If that bit about Yankees/Red Sox or bust is true, Santana is sure doing his best to squeeze Bill Smith's testacles on this. Don't know if he asked Smith to turn his head and cough first, though.
   70. GregD Posted: December 03, 2007 at 05:56 AM (#2631876)
It's at least in the realm of possibility that Hank is bluffing not the Twins but the Red Sox into taking one more step up.

Who knows what Haren and Bedard will go for, but it's obviously possible that the "winner" of the Johan sweepstakes ends up the worse off.

I've yet to see a good argument for why Hank should be quiet. He's keeping the Mets off the back page, he's feeding their fans winter blahs, and he's saying reasonable if blunt (though probably not quite true) things. Don't we groan about bland owners and bland GMs? He's fun, a lot more fun than his dad was most of the time.
   71. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 03, 2007 at 06:05 AM (#2631882)
It's also meaningless because the Twins are the ones with the power.

Not really. The Twins aren't willing to pay Santana what it'd take to sign him and they don't want to lose him just for draft choices. Teams interested in making a realistic offer have had ample time, so there's not much chance that someone swoops in with a better deal than what's on the table now. The Twins know that the Yanks could trade for Dan Haren instead, and that the Red Sox might respond by lowering their offer for Santana. If the Twins don't make the best deal that is available now, they may have to settle for less later.
   72. Bad Doctor Posted: December 03, 2007 at 01:43 PM (#2631986)
“I’m not going to be played against the Red Sox...” Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said Sunday. “So if they want the best offer that has been offered to them, then they need to make up their minds.”

I don't get this. What more pressing business do the Yankees have rather than trading for the best pitcher in baseball or assuring that if the Red Sox do so, it will come at a premium? The Yankees benefit more from forcing the Red Sox to trade Ellsbury AND Buchholz AND Lowrie in a Santana deal than they do from brushing up on available Rule 5 picks.

The Phillies do this all the time too ... they don't want to be "used" to bid up a free agent who's just going to take their offer to the Mets. I'm sure their front office is terribly busy with all sorts of minutia of which I am completely ignorant, but it seems to me that forcing your chief rival to overspend on a free agent gives some not insignificant benefit back to you, as long as you can handle the hit to your ego.
   73. Bad Doctor Posted: December 03, 2007 at 01:55 PM (#2631992)
I believe the point being made is that the NYY said that if ARod left, they wouldn't pursue, ie: bid, on him with others in a FA process. They have not, yet.

We can parse this all day long, and defenders of the Yankees brass can harp on words like "pursue" all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that anyone in high stakes negotiation with the Yankees at this time, in light of how the ARod situation played out, would have to take any Yankee ultimatum with a huge grain of salt. (Even larger than the usual grain of salt that anyone should apply to any ultimatum in high stakes negotiations.)

The mere fact that the Yankees' Santana drop dead deadline appars so comical in light of the ARod negotiations leads me to think that they are making this unnecessary ultimatum solely to stick to it, thereby giving their word some additional credibility in future negotiations. Their caving on two huge ultimatums so close to each other, considered along with Hank's cowboy tactics with the media, would strike me as having a huge detrimental impact on all of their future trade or free agent negotiations for quite some time.
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