thanks for the steak house rec's. I'm leaning towards Wolfgang's (due to the Luger connection) or the Palm--never been there and from what I've read it's a unique experience.

Is there an area restaurent anyone would recommend. We'll be near Grand Central and I don't mind walking (in fact that's still one of the great things about NYC).

When I first saw that an Olive Garden opened up in Times Square, I was both appalled and mystified - who would pay all that money to travel to New York City, then eat the exact same thing in the exact same environment they could have back in suburban Kansas City?

I come from a family that eats at those sorts of restaurants on holiday all the time. Personally, I'd rather not, but it's what we do and it probably does make sense. Here's why: My sister, brother and mother are relatively conservative eaters. I've suggest Thai, Chinese and other ethnic restaurants, but they don't really want to eat there. I've pushed for it on several occasions, but it's been clear they'd be having a worse dining experience than I would at Hard Rock, so I don't push for it. It's much easier for us to find something everyone will tolerate (burger, some pasta dish, ribs, etc...) at a chain restaurant like that than it is at some other places.

Also, my sister and mother have to eat on regimented schedules, so if we're out at some site until 6 or 7, we have to find something to eat relatively quickly. We never get restaurant recommendations ahead (which I should probably try, but don't) and thus, as fun as it wander until you find an appealing place to eat, that's not usually a feasible option for too long. It's often easy find a chain restaurant quickly, as it is often handily located near some attraction or at some central location.

As I said, it's not my choice at all. But it probably worked best our family on family trips, so I get why people do dine there.

JC:

I have a good sense of NY Theater, which is why I specifically mentioned the execrable "Cats", and "The Producers" was a fairly recent hit (and a very enjoyable show). The stats do show a drop in the number or new serious plays done on Broadway and Off-Broadway. I have no problem with hits (I liked "The Drowsy Chaperone", for instance), but with crap like "Mamma Mia!". However, YMMV.

And the lone example of your uncle, whom I wish well, does not disprove the statistics. According to Prudential Douglas Elliman, average sales prices in Manhattan rose from roughly $500,000 to roughly $1.7 million from 1998 to 2008 (and I know that "average" numbers are skewed by sales at the high end, but look at the overall trend here). This has a ripple effect on the other boroughs too. We could have bought a place in Windsor Terrace, an unfashionable part of Brooklyn, five years ago: now it would be a struggle.

Loren:

Your report drips with nostalgia.

JC, what is this thing about "nostalgia" that seems to drive you up a wall? It's about as meaningful as a Republican's cry of "elitist," and it seems to be little more than your way of not confronting the facts that Loren and I have laid out.

And when Loren writes

Things have changed, and the middle class is getting squeezed out of Manhattan and out of much of Brooklyn.

why do you leave out the "much of" in your reply?---which makes it sound as if he's saying that this is already a borough-wide phenomenon. He didn't say that at all.

And while there are still many pockets of middle class residency in Brooklyn, the question is just how long that can continue, when your school bus driving uncle passes on and either (1) his rent controlled lease runs out; or (2) the next generation of school bus drivers tries to buy his house at current market rates. To a great extent the survival of the middle class in our biggest cities---and not just New York---is based on the fact that many of the homeowners bought their houses decades ago, when housing was far more affordable.

Things change. NY has changed for the better. Not in every way, of course, but in many many respects.

No question it has---for those who can still afford it. But I guess that's just my "nostalgia" speaking.

Is there an area restaurent anyone would recommend. We'll be near Grand Central and I don't mind walking (in fact that's still one of the great things about NYC).

You'll probably need to hop on the subway or hail a cab to get to a good restaurant. There are a number of places near Grand Central that cater to the business set (hence the plethora of steakhouses), but the area is pretty devoid of nightlife in general.

That said, one of the better meals I've had within walking distance of Grand Central was Szechuan Gourmet on 39th between 5th and 6th. It's not quite as good as the authentic Szechuan places in Flushing, but it's close enough to skip the 45 minute ride on the 7 train.

It is also pretty busy since it was written up in the NY Times. The last time I was there Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick had a table in the back.

The next 10-20 years will be very interesting. As fewer and fewer new college graduates can afford to buy houses, and the houses occupied by people now in their 60s and 70s, who bought them many years ago, go on the market, will the prices drop, or will the houses simply go vacant? I hear they've dropped slightly, but not enough to make a real difference.

It's funny--in my non-message board life, I often rail against "nostalgia." It's a nebulous concept. If there's nothing to back it up, then it's "just" nostalgia, and it's annoying. People need to be willing to admit that the way something is now is better than the way it once was, if for no other reason than that change and development are good for the mind.

But people also need to be willing to admit that the way something is now is worse than the way it once was. There is a real whistle-past-the-graveyard mentality in American life today, which is understandable; no one wants to think that his children will have a harder life than he had, or that he's having a harder life than his parents had. But facts are facts. Reasons can be speculated about and discussed endlessly, but observations are just that.

cseadog, for great Japanese fusion, i.e., more than standard sushi, try Sakagura. It's at 211 E 43rd St., between 2nd and 3rd Avenues. It's a little hard to find in that you have to walk into the lobby of a corporate office building, then down an industrial stairwell and through a corridor, but it's a real hidden gem.

EDIT: I haven't seen the episode, but am told that it was featured and raved about on Anthony Bourdain's show. Given his notorious pickiness about Asian food in general, and Japanese in particular, that's a high compliment. Also, if you're a fan of sake, you won't find a better selection in many places outside of Japan.

Sparks and the Palm are nearby and have been recommended. Thoughts?

Sparks is the best steakhouse in teh city. Period.

I would not want to live in a city without a Spitfire on public display.

Chicago has one, and a U-Boat in the same building.

There is a real whistle-past-the-graveyard mentality in American life today, which is understandable; no one wants to think that his children will have a harder life than he had, or that he's having a harder life than his parents had. But facts are facts. Reasons can be speculated about and discussed endlessly, but observations are just that.

There is a real problem you're pointing to, but you're only looking at the symptoms.

The issue is that the working/lower middle class in the U.S. has had falling real wages over the past 30 years. In my opinion (somewhat professional, I'm a training Economist but don't practice as one), globalization is the clear primary cause, with illegal immigration as a secondary factor.

Since the 1980's the world economy has added something like 2 billion workers (primarily in China and India) at very low wages, and with almost no environmental, safety or labor standards. This has devastated manufacturing employment in the U.S. How could it not?

Meanwhile, the U.S. has added 12M illegal immigrants, who have depressed wages for low skilled workers.

If we care about the distribution of income in the U.S. (which I do), we have to talk about trade policy (i.e. tariffs) and immigration restrictions. I'm very conservative, economically and socially, but have to say that the continued reduction of the standard of living for the 10th-50th %-ile of the population is bad for democracy in the U.S. The socialistic response would be devastating to economic growth.

Unfortunately, middle class (and richer) Americans like their cheap flat screens, DVD players, gardeners and nannies a little too much.

It's funny--in my non-message board life, I often rail against "nostalgia." It's a nebulous concept. If there's nothing to back it up, then it's "just" nostalgia, and it's annoying. People need to be willing to admit that the way something is now is better than the way it once was, if for no other reason than that change and development are good for the mind.

But people also need to be willing to admit that the way something is now is worse than the way it once was.

Very true on both counts. People who claim that things are "better" now, or were "better" in the past, should always be called upon to back it up with specifics: What, exactly, is "better"---or "worse"---about now, or about the past? And for whom? Who has benefitted and who has suffered, and through what effort (or fault) of their own? And to what extent is it "better" or "worse" because of our conscious policy decisions? As opposed to its being genuinely inevitable and beyond any real control. Without filling in these details, it's all just a lot of gibberish.

thanks for the steak house rec's. I'm leaning towards Wolfgang's (due to the Luger connection) or the Palm--never been there and from what I've read it's a unique experience.

Unless you absolutely have to stay in Manhattan, I'd recommend just grabbing a cab and going to Luger's. I haven't been in a couple of years, but it's always been the best of the NYC steakhouses IMO, and is well worth a visit.

I'd call ahead to Luger's, or even Sparks for that matter. Both places tend to be crowded.

Now in your next reply, kindly address the plight of those people who could formerly---but no longer---afford to live in Harlem. And points north.

That means those people have to ####### move. Just like I can't live in ####### idaho if I wanted, because I don't have the skills for one. It doesn't mean there is something wrong with Idaho, it means something is wrong with my skills.

I'd call ahead to Luger's, or even Sparks for that matter. Both places tend to be crowded.

Good point. Unless things have changed, don't expect to get a table at Luger's without reservations unless you're willing to eat really early or really late. Actually, expect to wait around a while even with reservations.

That I cannot afford to live in Manhattan doesn't bear on the great, unique time I can have in Manhattan.

To me, much of the "too expensive" critique smacks of nostalgia, possibly mixed with resentment.

The population has grown less diverse in Manhattan. Not everyone values diversity. If you like seeing bars populated by people that were made with the same cookie-cutter mold, button-down shirt types and girls dressed like they're auditioning to be extras in the new Jessica Parker vehicle, then you'll be happy there. But that isn't what drew me to the area. The influx of money means it's easier to just have a generic hip-hop DJ than it is to try something off-beat. I can still have a great time if I put some effort into seeking out interesting events, but that doesn't change the fact that there's been a demographic shift in Manhattan that has brought a cultural shift. JC might not notice it, but I don't care what a tourist thinks is a fun time in NYC. I have known a number of interesting bars that had to shut down only to be reopened as generic faux-old bars. This is a totally subjective criticism, and my issue isn't with change but with the change of that neighborhood to look like any run-of-the-mill college neighborhood near an expensive private school.

Of course, Andy's totally right. And this has nothing to do with any kind of envy. My God, I'd never in a gazillion years want to work any of the kinds of jobs those financial guys do. What's the point of having all that money when you're bored as hell 10 hours out of every day?

Yeah. The problem is when that population drives the rents up so ridiculously that it means a reorganization for the rest of the population. The rent at our place has gone up over 30% from when we moved in 3 years ago, and (in the EV) it is pretty closely linked to NYU students with parents who will write a blank check to allow their kid to live in a safe area (we were beat out on several different apts in Grammercy by students with parents who were paying their rent b/c the parents signed on to guarantee the lease). This has come along with a sharp increase both in tuition and admission standards at NYU. JC can denigrate all of these observations as "nostalgia" but there's no imagination of a past where things were better here- there's a past where things were different, and an expression of a value judgment regarding the change.

It is change that makes the place less interesting, but the type of change in particular. Since the late 1990s, Manhattan has increasingly become a playground for the rich. If you're smart and don't mind the lack of security, you can make enough of a living entertaining them to inhabit their space.

edit: this was written before the spate of posts about nostalgia in general, which is a very interesting discussion. I do a lot on technology and social reactions to it, and nostalgia figures heavily in this. In general, I'm against nostalgia for nostalgia's sake (before was always better *because* it was before). But that's not what's going on here. I'm perfectly fine with my own subjectivity.

Re: Steakhouses- My friends all swear by the Strip House on 12th and University, but I skip out on those outings. Looking for a good one for my no-longer-ABD break the bank dinner coming up, so all of these suggestions are great.

How much do the steaks go for at those places? Luger's and Sparks?

EDIT: NY Strip, for example.

cseadog, for great Japanese fusion, i.e., more than standard sushi, try Sakagura. It's at 211 E 43rd St., between 2nd and 3rd Avenues. It's a little hard to find in that you have to walk into the lobby of a corporate office building, then down an industrial stairwell and through a corridor, but it's a real hidden gem.

I echo this recommendation, and made it somewhere earlier in the thread as well. It's not fusion though - it's honest to goodness Japanese food, just menu items you tend to see more in Japan than in the US.

I've heard great things about Wolfgang's. I think it's a safe bet.

kevin -- not sure about Luger's and Sparks in particular, but for the other high-end steakhouses, the piece of meat itself runs you $40-45. Sides are extra.

EDIT: NY Strip, for example.

Haven't been to Sparks in about 1.5 yrs, but I'm guessing $35-40 just for the steak. No sides.

Steak prices are pretty uniform. USDA Prime is scarce, and expensive, and doesn't really require skilled labor to cook. Any good steakhouse with real aged prime steak is going to be in that neighborhood.

That's what they charge at Ruth's Chris and Morton's, AZ. i was wondering if those other places were the same.

I mean, really. In most good restaurants, you can an equivalent steak in the thirties so why pay $40? And in Morton's you have to pay extra for any sides. Ripoff.

I mean, really. In most good restaurants, you can an equivalent steak in the thirties so why pay $40? And in Morton's you have to pay extra vor any sides. Ripoff.

No you can't. USDA Prime is different that the steak you but at the supermarket. They also age it for something like 6 weeks, which gets out all the excess water, so a 12 oz. steak is actually 12 oz. of meat.

You can tell the difference? I can't.

I agree, snapper. When I go to a regular good restaurant, I never order steak. When I want steak, I go to a steakhouse. For me, it's a treat anyway, so the extra money is well worth it.

At Luger they serve porterhouses. Possibly the only cut they serve, certainly the only one anybody orders. A porterhouse for two was $80 or so last time I visited

I'm really excited that Idaho has finally implemented the skills-based residency requirements I've long supported.

Hell yes I can tell the difference. Dry aged is fine stuff.

$20 steaks suck, I agree. But once you get above $30, I don't see the point in paying much more than that, unless something special is done to it.

You can tell the difference? I can't.

Yes. But remember, not all fancy restaurants are serving aged USDA prime.

A lot are serving regular USDA choice that you can buy at the market for $10-15/lb, not aging it, and charging you $35. That's a rip-off. Real Prime will retail for $25/lb and up. So, after aging (which lowers the weight a lot), paying $40-45 in a restaurant for it isn't bad.

Plus, if you go to a "real" steakhouse, you have the assurance that your steak will be cooked to your choice (not over or undercooked), and the full menu of sides available (gotta have creamed spinach).

I got a ribeye at Morton's one time and I thought it was awful. At least 30% of it was fat and I spent most of the time cutting away the little bits of fat scattered throughout the meat.

that's why I like the NY strip. all the fat is in one place and easy to trim.

My local butcher offers a dry age service where he stores the primal in his dry-age room, all you have to do is call ahead & tell him how many you want prepped. The flavor is incomparable & very much worth the bypass it will likely cause in the future.

I got a ribeye at Morton's one time and I thought it was awful. At least 30% of it was fat and I spent most of the time cutting away the little bits of fat scattered throughout the meat.

Order Filet or some other less marbled cut of meat next time. Not that I can endorse Mortons. However, the less marbled the cut is, the less effect the dry aging would have.

I got a ribeye at Morton's one time and I thought it was awful. At least 30% of it was fat and I spent most of the time cutting away the little bits of fat scattered throughout the meat.

Not a big fan of the chains either. I think Morton's is eh. I HATE Ruth Chris. That damn hot plate turns my medium rare steak to medium well before I'm finished.

Yes. But remember, not all fancy restaurants are serving aged USDA prime.

A lot are serving regular steak that you can buy at the market for $10-15/lb, not aging it, and charging you $35. That's a rip-off. Real Prime will retail for $25/lb and up. So, after aging (which lowers the weight a lot), paying $40-45 in a restaurant for it isn't bad.

This. Unless a restaurant makes a point of telling you the meat is USDA Prime, it isn't. Even if it is, it's probably not aged, or at least not up to steakhouse standards. To my taste buds, there is a WORLD of difference between USDA Prime, steakhouse aged, and, well, anything else.

And yeah, I'm 99% sure Luger only serves porterhouse. If you order it any way but rare or medium rare, there's a good chance you'll be mocked to your face. All part of the charm.

My local butcher offers a dry age service where he stores the primal in his dry-age room, all you have to do is call ahead & tell him how many you want prepped

Did anybody read "Fastfood Nation"? The author spends a great deal of time lamenting the decline in stature of the neighborhood butcher, who provided a skilled service that greatly contributed to QoL and meat safety. Now, these mega-abatoirs jsut crank it through at breakneck speed, paying illegal immigrants 8 bucks an hr to get carpal tunnel syndrome.

I always order medium rare. Especially if it's a thick steak, most of the interior will be rare anyway. And toxic E. coli has me freaked.

Did anybody read "Fastfood Nation"? The author spends a great deal of time lamenting the decline in stature of the neighborhood butcher, who provided a skilled service that greatly contributed to QoL and meat safety

Just one of the myriad ways SF is superior to Boston.

And yeah, I'm 99% sure Luger only serves porterhouse.

Make that 100%. The menu says only "Steak for Two," "Steak for Four," etc. It's all porterhouse.

A good Financial District (well, near the Seaport) steakhouse that's yet to be mentioned is Mark Joseph. Excellent porterhouse.

Steak, steak, steak. But where can I get a good salad?

Kevin,

A steak at Sparks or Palms or Ben and Jacks or BLt's os Lugar's almost all run about 44, plus sides.

My cut is sirloin which is why I prefer Sparks with homefries and creame of spinich.

I have never had a steak at any chain as good as teh worst steak I've had at one of those places. It's amazingly different. In fact I was never a huge fan of steak until moving to new york, and trying the non-chains. My opinion was similar to yours re: Morton's or Ruth Cris etc.

We should do a BTF meet-up at Sparks. Who's in?

this thread took a funny turn.

Just one of the myriad ways SF is superior to Boston.

Nope, we have those in Boston. They're not common, of course, but I'm guessing the same thing is true about San Francisco

me.

Steak, steak, steak. But where can I get a good salad?

In San Francisco.

Now in your next reply, kindly address the plight of those people who could formerly---but no longer---afford to live in Harlem. And points north.

That means those people have to ####### move. Just like I can't live in ####### idaho if I wanted, because I don't have the skills for one. It doesn't mean there is something wrong with Idaho, it means something is wrong with my skills.

As always, I appreciate the use of direct language, without any sanitizing euphemisms or beating around the bush. It beats compassionate conservatism any day of the week.

And I think it was Anatole Rockefeller (or someone like that) who said that the law of supply and demand, in all its noble majesty, prevents the rich from feeling unwelcome in Idaho just as much as it prevents former Harlemites from being able to keep living in New York. It's truly an equal opportunity tradeoff. One more heavenly miracle brought to us by our Saviour, The Invisible Hand.

Very true on both counts. People who claim that things are "better" now, or were "better" in the past, should always be called upon to back it up with specifics: What, exactly, is "better"---or "worse"---about now, or about the past?

Well, I'd say, on average, life has been better since October 2004. You might say it's been downhill since October 2000 (or is "downhill" the good one? I can never remember).

i was thinking about that during my vacation last week. the expression 'it's all downhill from there' refers to getting older and eventually checking out. but geez ... i was on a sixteen mile bike ride (in 100-degree weather) the second half of which was all uphill and wishing it had been all downhill from the midpoint ...

:)

I very infrequently post here, but it's relevant, so I figured I'd mention that I'm a senior at NYU from Alabama. This year I'll be living in Harlem, actually. So I'm more or less the embodiment of evil according to this thread. To which I'd like to say: I'm sorry but I'm having a hell of a time.

(I'm planning on grad school in physics and I'd love to stay in NYC, but I doubt that I will be able to afford to. Yes, NYC is expensive.)

(And to keep this on topic, I've never been to a steakhouse in the city, being a poor college student.)

bebop, i've never dissed NYC. if i wasn't living in L.A., i'd want to be there. NYC rocks.

Very true on both counts. People who claim that things are "better" now, or were "better" in the past, should always be called upon to back it up with specifics: What, exactly, is "better"---or "worse"---about now, or about the past?

Well, I'd say, on average, life has been better since October 2004. You might say it's been downhill since October 2000 (or is "downhill" the good one? I can never remember).

I literally used to think that any year the Yanks won the Series was a good year, and any year that they didn't was a bad one. Admittedly a sentiment that was tough to reconcile with 1932, 1943 or 1989.

You might say it's been downhill since October 2000

You're off by a month.

I'm always up for a good steak too. Count me in.

I've never been to the one in New York, but the Craftsteak in Las Vegas is one of the two or three best restaurants I've been to in my life.

$20 steaks suck, I agree. But once you get above $30, I don't see the point in paying much more than that, unless something special is done to it.

I'm with you. Anything from about Ruth's Chris and up tastes about the same to me. It could be that I just don't have the palate to appreciate the high-end of steaks, but in that case I might as well save the money too.

andy, i don't get your dates. by your reckoning, 32 and 43 should have been good years (yanks win). 89 should have been a bad year (A's win). please clarify.

It beats compassionate conservatism any day of the week.

Not being to live where you want isn't a hardship, as you've implied through the entirety of this thread nor does it deserve anyone compassion. It's an inconvenience, a moderatly sized inconvenience but no worse than urban sprawl in most typical large cities.

andy, i don't get your dates. by your reckoning, 32 and 43 should have been good years (yanks win). 89 should have been a bad year (A's win). please clarify.

Well,
1932 - Great depression
1943 - WWII
1989 - Bush I takes office

Ah, Sparks. Used to eat there a lot in the early 80's. There, Palm, Christ Cella, Pen and Pencil, Smith & Wollensky. Big firm boondoggle -- work late at night, and get a partner to take you out to dinner.

Still remember when Big Pauly got gunned down in front of Sparks in '85.

I think '89 he was probably saying bad year (Yankees lose) but good year (fall of Communism)

There, Palm, Christ Cella, Pen and Pencil, Smith & Wollensky. Big firm boondoggle -- work late at night, and get a partner to take you out to dinner.

Let me guess: Simpson Thacher? Haven't thought about Christ Cella in many years. Used to be my favorite in that neighborhood. Did you drink at Costello's too?

well, if you guys are going to bring the real world into this, then you're no fun.
:)
besides, that would mean a whole lot of bad/good mixups. yanks won in 36, 37, 38, and 39 -- all during the depression. they also won in 56 (invasion of hungary).
they won in 2000 (election of bush II). how can that be a good year? nevermind, i don't want to have that argument.

andy, i don't get your dates. by your reckoning, 32 and 43 should have been good years (yanks win). 89 should have been a bad year (A's win). please clarify.

1932 - Great depression
1943 - WWII
1989 - Bush I takes office

I think '89 he was probably saying bad year (Yankees lose) but good year (fall of Communism)

Bingo.

well, if you guys are going to bring the real world into this, then you're no fun.
:)

besides, that would mean a whole lot of bad/good mixups. yanks won in 36, 37, 38, and 39 -- all during the depression. they also won in 56 (invasion of hungary).
they won in 2000 (election of bush II). how can that be a good year? nevermind, i don't want to have that argument.

From the perspective of a hard core twelve year old Yankee fan, all that other stuff was just stuff. The fate of Johnny Kucks was a lot more important than the fate of Hungary.

But '36 was still a good year---except in Maine and Vermont.

also, yanks won in 41, the year of PEARL HARBOR. anyway, i get your drift.
when i was 12, the cards won the series with bob gibson, lou brock, curt flood, mike shannon, dal maxvill, julian javier, roger maris and orlando cepeda. the world never looked more beautiful for me than in 1967.
the next year they lost with the same lineup after going up 3-1. that was one of life's most painful lessons for me.
with the exception of a little uptick in the 80s and '06, its been all downhill ever since.

thanks for the steak house rec's. I'm leaning towards Wolfgang's (due to the Luger connection) or the Palm--never been there and from what I've read it's a unique experience.

Is there an area restaurent anyone would recommend. We'll be near Grand Central and I don't mind walking (in fact that's still one of the great things about NYC).

I live reasonably close to Grand Central. If you're looking for an excellent (and reasonably priced) Italian place, check out Fagiolini at 39th and Lex.

There's a Turkish place called Ali Baba on 34th between 2nd and 3rd that has great food, but the service is typically slow.

There's a new Mediterranean/Turkish place on Madison and 41st called Pera which is also quite good, though not cheap.

I can recommend a few other places if you're willing to walk down to the 20s or teens.

Let me guess: Simpson Thacher?

Kelley Drye.

Did you drink at Costello's too?

Did most of my boozing at various neighborhood working class rish bars. I liked to drink with people who came to drink, and no other agenda.

There's a nice little Norwegian restaurant on 2nd and (I think) 48th or such called Smorgasboard.

Very good.

Who's in?

How about a lounge thread?

#350 offers a lot of food for thought, and I'm not talking steak.

Downhill has its benefits, downscale as well.

Not being able to stay where you've always lived has been the American way since the first arrival of Europeans to the continent. It's what makes America America, god bless it.

Eventually, we'll all take up residence in a relatively small and dark place, no matter what our income. No exceptions.

Since the 1980's the world economy has added something like 2 billion workers (primarily in China and India) at very low wages, and with almost no environmental, safety or labor standards. This has devastated manufacturing employment in the U.S. How could it not?

Lump of labor fallacy?

steaks - there's a HUGE difference between aged steaks, and even among aged steaks, versus other ones. it's definitely possible "you" don't appreciate the difference, not knocking that (see 2 paragraphs down).

you'll need to make reservations for the palm. luger's is harder to get ressies for, and the service will be much better at any of the manhattan steakhouses. luger's used to be MUCH better than the others; no longer true.

ok...if you want (expensive) sushi, but one of the best places in new york, sushi yasuda is like 1 block away from gcs. i eat sushi, but do NOT properly appreciate the high end stuff....i've just been told that from lots o' people.

some places of note a few blocks from gcs.

bagels: daniel's on 37th/3rd; there's also one in times square which is quite good, but whose name escapes me.
chinese: szechuan gourmet, on 39th. top notch, if you get spoiled by real chinese (like these in nyc) you'll never want chinese from your local place again.

a little further walk: pamplona (spanish, 28th/5th)...little brazil is on 46th between 6th and 7th. if you're going at random, head south rather than north; the cost will drop significantly. most of the places i like for nicer, but not jacket/tie dinner, are further south (ie. subway ride).

if you want a tasty and clean (!) lunch from a street vendor, go to the ones on 49th/6th and 50th/6th. nice variety of food from a streetcart..

Any suggestions for a BYO near Times Square? Special occasion next week with a guest from Chicago.

BTW, I just want to say this is a great thread. There are now at least 5 new places to eat that I'll have to try out.

chinese: szechuan gourmet, on 39th. top notch, if you get spoiled by real chinese (like these in nyc) you'll never want chinese from your local place again.


I love Sichuanese food. Is this authentic? How well do they make dan-dan noodles? How about their fish-flavored pork slices?

i've heard that Szechuan Gourmet is good, but still haven't had a chance to get there yet. After the time I spent in Shanghai (and Beijing, for that matter) it's much harder to enjoy Americanized Chinese cuisine.

Bagels- David's Bagels on 1st and 14th and 1st and 19th (might be others, not sure) are the best I've had in the city.

To the article's point, the cost of seeing a game in NYC will be up sharply next year. Generally, the cost of a ticket does not keep me away from games now (cheap upper deck seats at Shea are great), but next year those seats will be gone. It's too bad NYC will never get a third major league team...

raskol - can't comment on those dishes specifically, but for authentic szechuan in manhattan, go with szechuan gourmet and if not that, grand sichuan international; the zhou chicken is great (fresh killed, nice spices). unfortunately, not all GSI's are the same...

I know a BAD bagel, but the differences between the 20 or 30 recommended "best bagel" places in manhattan are completely indistinguishable to me.

Forum thread on BTF dinner at Sparks. I suggest some time next week.

lassus - depends on your likes, just like pizza dough. i tend to prefer airy, but large, not all people do.

btw, the best place i know of isn't in nyc, but in fair lawn, nj. people used to travel 30-45 minutes each way to get bagels on the weekend. (saddle river rd.). one former mainstream writer lives just a few blocks away, though i would guess that is a pure coincidence.