Good thing they ####### left him in after the incident.

as many have put it, yost pulled a baker

Oh ####.

Probably because he didn't spend enough time in the minors like guys did in the good ol days, or so Tony LaRussa told me.

< /Bissinger>

Oh Harveys...this may sound softbatch, but there's one young, cranky SOB Chicagoan who is feeling your pain right now. I guess it helps that I'm not a Cubs fan, but Yovanni was my favorite pitcher on the staff.

Oh #### is right. What a shame. I saw the replay of the accident on mlb.com; on slo-mo, his knee buckles so freakishly. Don't know why, but I thought of the game in which Ed McCaffrey of the Broncos broke his leg. Yeeesh

Yost and the trainer have to be fired, right? Letting him stay in was inexcusable.

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200805012622952

Yost and the trainer have to be fired, right? Letting him stay in was inexcusable.

Based on what? He shredded his ligament during the incident. What happened afterwards isn't relevant. He could probably pitch on it for the rest of the season, if he wanted to, but getting it fixed is best for his career.

Based on letting a guy who just blew out his knee keep pitching. Was my meaning not self-evident?

Based on letting a guy who just blew out his knee keep pitching. Was my meaning not self-evident?

It was evident, but incorrect.

"Dr. Raasch said there was no evidence of further trauma," said Ash. "I specifically asked Dr. Raasch that question. He was quite clear that he didn't believe it was an issue (that Gallardo pitched another inning). It wouldn't have changed anything in terms of what we know today."

Link

terrible news. I was hoping Yovani would sneak up and outshine his more-hyped peers (Hughes, Buchholz, Lincecum)

Will Carroll before this all went down.

Yovani Gallardo (0 DXL/0)

It looked bad, really bad, when Gallardo went down in a heap on a bunt play. He grabbed his knee, and it looked for all the world like it was some devastating injury. A closer look at the tape makes me wonder if it was the right decision to leave him in, but toughness is a quality that this Brewers team is looking for. Gallardo has it, and helped keep the game close enough to allow for a comeback. As far as what happened, when Gallardo leaped over Reed Johnson, he landed with his right knee hyperextended and rolled over the top of it. The way he grabbed the knee it looked like he'd lost lateral stability, but that wasn't the right mechanism. Instead, the mechanism would suggest a PCL strain or meniscus damage. We'll see how Gallardo comes back from this by his throw day, but he looked reasonably stable on the mound. You'll remember that Gallardo had knee surgery during spring training, but that was his left knee, which came out of the incident relatively unscathed. While there's a zero up there on the DXL, do not be surprised to see this change, even if it's just missing a start.

The saving grace is that this spares his arm for another year though

If we keep trying to not pitch talented pitchers, when will anyone ever win? Yes I understand the risk of injuries with young arms, but.....

At some point not pitching does not qualify as a "saving grace". I don't necessarily see how pitching 20 innings in 2008 saves his arm more for 2009 than if he pitched 175 innings this year. It is a setback to his pitching development.

Not picking on you Harvey's, but this topic and issue of "protecting arms" has been taken to absurd levels in this community recently.

terrible news. I was hoping Yovani would sneak up and outshine his more-hyped peers (Hughes, Buchholz, Lincecum)

He already lapped Hughes. And was starting to pull away from Bucholz, who is older. Tiny Tim is excellent, with a very high upside. Maybe the highest.

I've torn my ACL twice before, and I was sure that's what Gallardo had done. The sideways bend was stomach turning. Letting him continue to pitch was incredibly stupid, especially without even giving him a Lachmans test.

Once it's torn, it's torn. Of course, if it was only mostly torn in the incident, the rest possibly could have gone pitching but that's probably pretty unlikely.

But somebody here is just plain nuts. I remember the pain when I tore mine. And I REALLY remember the popping sounds it made when it tore. I remember scrambling across the floor to "escape" the pain -- some instinctive thing I suppose, as if some sabre-toothed tiger had just munched down on my leg. I remember the scream. I remember the scream not causing the referee (IM basketball) to stop the game so I screamed really, really loud such that the entire gym (about 12 courts) stopped. I had absolutely no doubt that things were ###### and ###### badly.

I can't say it's impossible that I could have jumped up and started pitching, pushing off my right leg ... but I can sure tell you that I knew there was no way that was a good idea.

Good luck to Gallardo in his recovery.

But sorry HW, Sheets is still their best pitcher, though it might be close. Alas, Gallardo looked like their best combination of quality and durability.

BTW, there apparently was a Stalin Gallardo in the Phillies system at one point. Lasted for 4 IP of rookie ball. Alas, his brothers Hitler, Pol Pot and Idi never made it.

Post 14;

I don't trust Yost. Period.

I believe the evidence supports this stance.

especially without even giving him a Lachmans test.

Even I know what this is. I agree, this is standard in the NFL, you see it in almost every game and you also see a guy get banged up, get this test, and then return to the game.

Once it's torn, it's torn. Of course, if it was only mostly torn in the incident, the rest possibly could have gone pitching but that's probably pretty unlikely.

But continuing to play on it after it's torn risks blowing out the whole knee (MCL and meniscus).

But somebody here is just plain nuts. I remember the pain when I tore mine. And I REALLY remember the popping sounds it made when it tore. I remember scrambling across the floor to "escape" the pain -- some instinctive thing I suppose, as if some sabre-toothed tiger had just munched down on my leg. I remember the scream. I remember the scream not causing the referee (IM basketball) to stop the game so I screamed really, really loud such that the entire gym (about 12 courts) stopped. I had absolutely no doubt that things were ###### and ###### badly.

That's how it was for me, but it's definitely different for others. Baron Davis didn't even fall down when he tore his ACL in the NCAA tourney against Michigan. He even jogged back and played defense before leaving the game.

Before today Gallardo was better. It's not 2004.

harveys

i'm sorry. really. the crew SHOULD have won this year at the very least. actually they SHOULD have won in 06 and 07, the eff with Da Plan...

and no dana eveland neither...

I believe the evidence supports this stance.

Further regarding the "saving grace" being Gallardo's arm is saved.

I see little difference in harm between 175 and 20 for 2008. As I said, I understand the methods today to protect young arms, but you are missing my point I think. Gallardo pitched approx 170 innings last year, I happen to think being age 22 and only pitching 20 innings is a major setback to his development and arm building stamina.

Sure I suppose there is indeed risk of injury after pitching 1 inning, I suppose pitching ZERO would be safer. But that is not the risk people are trying to manage.

People are trying to manage overuse. Overuse doesn't become a factor at 20 innings or even 120 innings for Gallardo. Overuse for Gallardo wouldn't even be a conversation until he was over 180 innings of stayed in for 130 pitches in a single game.

It was evident, but incorrect.

It was entirely correct. The fact that he didn't sustain further injury is immaterial. Shooting yourself in the head with a nail gun doesn't become any less stupid if you happen not to hit anything important.


Once it's torn, it's torn.

Well, yeah, but the reason you don't keep running around with a torn cruciate isn't the dreaded "double rupture," it's that the instability puts you at increased risk of injury to all the other structures. Imagine the world of hurt he's in right now if somebody'd dropped a bunt down the third base side and he'd run over there and tried to plant and throw.

Ed. - Or, y'know, what Danny said.

But continuing to play on it after it's torn risks blowing out the whole knee (MCL and meniscus).

Yeah, but he did roll and around and scream about being hurt? Should Yost have taken him out to be proactive? Probably, but Gallardo didn't say "Skip, my knees not right, I need to come out" either.

Oh, and Grant Fuhr played an entire playoff season for the Blues without one ACL

But continuing to play on it after it's torn risks blowing out the whole knee (MCL and meniscus).

Yup, and the patellar tendon, and who knows, maybe the hamstring too. Throw in the quad too. And so on.

Yeah, but he did roll and around and scream about being hurt? Should Yost have taken him out to be proactive? Probably, but Gallardo didn't say "Skip, my knees not right, I need to come out" either.

Gallardo's not the doctor.

I don't particularly blame Yost; I blame the trainer. He failed to properly examine a pitcher after a frightening knee injury. They shouldn't have let Gallardo even step back on the mound before giving him a Lachmans.

Sigh.

To all other posters my remarks being quoted (out of context) were AND remain specific to Ned Yost and his handling of pitchers. In no way do these comments reflect my complete philosophy and/or views with respect to pitcher usage.

Suggestions otherwise are erroneous and without foundation.

LaPorta will be in a RiverCats uniform sometime this summer.

LaPorta and another prospect for Blanton would probably make some sense, actually.

I've torn my ACL twice before, and I was sure that's what Gallardo had done. The sideways bend was stomach turning. Letting him continue to pitch was incredibly stupid, especially without even giving him a Lachmans test.

Ugh, I've done it too, and of course last night I had my recurring nightmare about lying in the grass gasping for air screaming in pain. Good times.

Oh, and Grant Fuhr played an entire playoff season for the Blues without one ACL

I don't know what the circumstances of this one were, but hockey players generally come back much more quickly from a blown ACL than other athletes. There are some few guys that blow an ACL when they're young and never have it repaired. Hines Ward, for instance. That's ultra-rare, though, obviously.

Of course this is a big blow to the Brewers, especially coming this early. Factor in that you can't expect Sheets to pitch all year, and it's probably going to take a serious injury or two of their own to stop the Cubs from running away from the rest of the division.

I'm not sure what the hell Yost was thinking. What'd he give 'em on the mound after he hurt himself--one more inning? Ridiculous.

Harveys' estimate on the number of wins Yost costs the Brewers (5, if memory serves) might've been low.

The Brewers have a team that can win. They need to invest more into this season to make sure it is not wasted and they must do so without trading away the future.

R Oswalt
R Harden
J Blanton
I Snell

who else is available?

R Harden

They already have Ben Sheets; they don't need an even less reliable model.

Do they have to win in 2008? What stars on the team that they're expecting to lose in the offseason? The same young core should be there. I hesitate to trade the farm to take a shot at winning right now.

And I was skeptical for a while, but I'm coming around to agreeing with Harveys that Yost is not the man to take them anywhere.

It's unlikely they'd trade away LaPorta/whatever in a run for this year, particularly now. And you're not going to get a decent starter without either trading away the future or removing a piece from the MLB club.

I'd suspect Weaver/Chris Narveson (not on 40, but easily arranged by swinging Gallardo or Capuano to the 60-day) would get some starts when the need for another starter arrives.

I was anti Yost before he was hired. I wished the 1982 Brewers would drop dead. I swear the organization does all it can to get every 82 Brewer involved in this thing.

In 2008 Milwaukee loses Sheets. So, basically their best pitcher. And more importantly, the NL Central is improving very quickly. The bar is rather low to win in 2007, '08 is a different story. There is additional uncertainty in CF and at closer, neither is a lock to return, both positions could be even worse.

It was 3 seasons ago, THREE!, that Milwaukee was .500 for the first time in 12 seasons, to be three years removed from that and still not any closer to the playoffs would be a miss. This team has a lot of talent on it now, you don't pass on 2007. They already beat the Cubs twice in Chicago, the first time without Gallardo. This division can still be had without him, but it would help to get another above average starting pitcher.

I hesitate to trade the farm to take a shot at winning right now.

Nobody suggested they do this. In fact, I suggested they

They need to invest more into this season to make sure it is not wasted and they must do so without trading away the future.

This can be accomplished. This usually means taking on a contract. I don't want to be the Twins where they never make the move to try and win, but are just content with replacing their stars every 4 years from the farm, keeping the franchise near a 85-90 win quality team, and a 1st rd sweep/loss.

This can be accomplished. This usually means taking on a contract.

A couple of years ago, sure it could.

Now, with the current economics of the game, with the exception of maybe the Marlins and the A's, and perhaps a few others, not so.

If a pitcher is still worth having (not the Matt Morrises of the world), even if overpaid, there'd be competition, which means more than just the prior practice of taking the contract and tossing a body back.

Wow, that is quite a bit of poo-pooing NTN. Nothing is possible, I guess. Glad you are not running the team.

I'm trying to think what potential salary dump SP's are out there. I think guys like Oswalt, Snell, and Blanton would require some "trading away of the future".

Wow, that is quite a bit of poo-pooing NTN. Nothing is possible, I guess. Glad you are not running the team.

And you're taking the exact opposite tack - that the Brewers can easily acquire a solid, proven starting pitcher without giving up anything of much value.

In the current market, even a slightly overpaid pitcher is going to require one of the Brewers' good prospects or a MLB player in return.

Like every other team, the Brewers can try to scrape up a has-been or a guy who has slipped through the cracks (which is what they did with the Weaver signing and the Narveson signing - I seem to recall a number of Cards fans last year who wanted Narveson to pitch in the Cards' rotation)

Actually, Gallardo was injured facing the first batter in the 5th, and ended up going 6. So 1.2 more innings after rolling around on the ground in pain for a while.

I could be persuaded to give up Barry Zito for only a bag of balls in return.

Barry Zito for Gabe Kapler.

Scooped, dadburnit.

Yeah, you don't dial 1-800-PITCHER and find a capable starter. If you're 'taking on a contract', you're getting a pitcher that isn't very good, and the Brewers are actually still fairly deep in fifth-starter types. What they need is a significantly above replacement level starter, and they're getting that... where? Who's looking to dump the contract of an effective starting pitcher? Nobody I can think of. If there's someone you have in mind, toss it out there. Maybe it'll work. Maybe the Pirates are still stupid enough to part with Ian Snell for nothing important; that's a phone call worth making, I agree, but they probably won't deal until they're totally out of the race (trade deadline).

I don't really see that there's any pitching help to be had outside the Brewers organization, unless they're willing to give up a package that starts with LaPorta. Sure, it's the GM's job to make all the phone calls he can, but it's long odds.

Actually, Gallardo was injured facing the first batter in the 5th, and ended up going 6. So 1.2 more innings after rolling around on the ground in pain for a while.

I'm on the side of the "what the hell were they doing!?" crowd on this one. To let one of your franchise's most valuable commodities keep pitching after sustaining an obviously painful knee injury is horribly irresponsible and, I think, serious enough an offense to merit immediate termination. Get him out of there, get him seriously checked out, and then evaluate whether he needs to miss any more time.

It's in Gallardo's best interest that the ACL tear was found now and he's done for the year, before the Brewers let him keep trying to pitch through it until he messed up his arm trying to compensate for the bad knee in his delivery.

Maybe the Pirates are still stupid enough to part with Ian Snell for nothing important; that's a phone call worth making, I agree, but they probably won't deal until they're totally out of the race (trade deadline).

Snell signed a five-year deal in spring training, and is still cheap.

The ONLY way he gets moved, unless he gets caught fornicating with squirrels in a public park or something, is for a big return.

Don't ever put anything past the Pirates. That's all I'm saying.

I'm trying to think what potential salary dump SP's are out there.

Burnett.

Who knows, that is why you hire a GM, to make these calls, find someone, get creative. Add Justin Z to the poo-poo'er everything is impossible. How do you guys make it through a day?

Also, "trading away the future" does not mean every young player is traded. It means one, possibly two players. It means one very good, or maybe 2-3 just good (see santana deal). That is a piece of the future, not the entire future. I see a window, a window of 5 years with Braun, Prince (3) where the Brewers have to make their move.

Also, we may have reached a point where teams are overvaluing their prospects. Most don't do much in the majors. If you are good at scouting, identify those prospects that have value, yet you feel won't make it, trade them. (Nelson Cruz; ring a bell?, soon add Will Inman to that list of Brewers knew they weren't prospects but got talent for them anyway)

I never said it was easy.

But you also have never offered any specific ideas until just now. OK, A.J. Burnett. There are two problems with trading for A.J. Burnett, even if you want to gamble on his health:

1. J.P. Ricciardi's job most likely depends on the Blue Jays making the postseason or at least coming very close. It's not likely he's going to want to unload Burnett, even with his salary, for a few B prospects at this point in time.

2. Burnett has a partial no-trade allowing him to block deals to 15 teams. Milwaukee may be one of them. (Though I've seen rumors aplenty are he hates the Blue Jays and may accept a trade anywhere.)

So yes, it's worth making the call, but you shouldn't be optimistic anything's going to get done. What other possibilities do you have in mind? I'm honestly not trying to snark you. I'm just having trouble coming up with any possible trade that a) seriously upgrades the Brewers rotation and b) doesn't cost the Brewers Matt LaPorta.

But you also have never offered any specific ideas until just now.

Well, you could have read what I wrote. That is pretty specific. Do you want DNA samples?

R Oswalt
R Harden
J Blanton
I Snell

who else is available?

I asked who else is available, instead you became a king naysayer. You didn't even want to brainstorm, instead tried to make the case it wasn't worth talking about.

I did brainstorm, and I've got nothing. Maybe there is nothing, or maybe I'm just a low-watt bulb; I'm open to either possibility.

Oswalt is going to cost the Brewers big-time.

Harden's an interesting gamble that they might be able to pull off.

Blanton would cost them big-time.

Snell, who knows? If he belonged to an intelligent organization he'd be untouchable. Good thing for the Brewers that's not the case, so yeah, make the call, but don't be real hopeful.

What else do we have?

Harden could be had for less than LaPorta. I mean really, the farm system is not LaPorta or bust. I realize there are downsides, every single downside mentioned is no surprise. So obviously Harden is injury prone, thus he is cheaper. There are a lot of ways to add talent, some involve more risk, cost, uncertainty.

If we wait until the environment is perfect to act, you will never act. If you think holding on to every last prospect is the way to maximize value, I have to say you are wrong. Milwaukee and Arizona are not that different. They both have a young talented core, yet Arizona dealt away quite a large piece of "their future", kept their best prospect, and landed an above average pitcher to further improve their chances, despite having good quality already in the rotation.

When you have a young talented core, young being key, you don't need to, or have room for, keeping every last prospect. You are going to see the Rays run into a problem, if they have not already, of having too many prospects to evaluate and not enough space to play on the big club. Sometimes it is best to consolidate several good pieces (prospects) into one very good piece (certainty) because of space/logistics.

I'm sure the A's wouldn't mind dumping Chavez's contract, but I doubt they'd give away Blanton or even Harden to do it.

I'm sure the A's wouldn't mind dumping Chavez's contract, but I doubt they'd give away Blanton or even Harden to do it.

Hall and middle prospect (Z Braddock) for Chavez and Blanton/Haren. Thoughts?

Or

T Gwynn, Dave Bush, middle prospect for C Young (padres). Am I off my rocker?

Yes you are.

On the Padres trade? Good Lord, yes you are.

The As trade depends on how badly the As want to dump Chavez's contract.

If they can't pull a pitcher after a play like that, why the hell are they carrying all those extra damn relievers?

I love the fanboy "here are three crap players for your really good one" interwebs trade offers.

I love the fanboy "here are three crap players for your really good one" interwebs trade offers.

Poo-poo-er.

My fanboy offer would be absurd, if it didn't happen every now and again. I forgot, it was Jon Daniels that gave away C Young for nothing.

Hall and middle prospect (Z Braddock) for Chavez and Blanton/Haren. Thoughts?

No point to it. We don't need to trade any of those players, so only way it's getting done is for Laporta or someone in that vein.

Haren's on the Diamondbacks.

Haren's on the Diamondbacks.

He meant Harden, I'm sure. It was mighty decent of the A's to separate Haren and Harden. That was uncool.

As mentioned, the Jays would fancy themselves in the playoff race, if they can swing a deal for a hitter. Ofcourse Bonds and Thomas are persona non grata there.
And even if you swing a trade for Burnett, its a lose-lose. If he is healthy the rest of the way ( big IF ), he has an opt out clause after this season.

I think the Crew has spare parts to trade. Apart from LaPorta, there is Gamel. But noone is going to swing a trade at this early point in the season. Except the Giants maybe. LaPorta for Sanchez?

Matt Gamel is hitting 360/432/640 in AA. If the Brewers want to acquire an above average pitcher without giving up LaPorta, Gamel is probably going to be in any such deal.

No point to it. We don't need to trade any of those players, so only way it's getting done is for Laporta or someone in that vein.

LaPorta is playing RF a lot. C Hart will move to CF, Braun and LaPorta in the corners. LaPorta is not a "must trade" player. The D-Backs got Haren without giving up their top prospect, it can be done.

LaPorta for Sanchez is interesting, I'd consider that, or Gamel for Sanchez.

i think with sabien you just have to dangle a few crappy vets and you could get what you want out of him.

Gamel is a horrible fielder although I like his bat. LaPorta is also allergic to leather.

#69: The A's got a lot for Haren and some of it quite useful thank you very much.

Considering what the A's got for Haren (who is better than Country Joe but not by as much as people think), LaPorta and Hall for Blanton, Buck, and DLS is fair. Blanton is cost-controlled as is Buck. Heck, I'd even through in a useful arm like Andrew Brown.

I don't understand why teams don't rearrange or align their talent mid-season more often. Beane has done it often with good results. The A's would insert Simmons into the rotation (with Cahill, Anderson, HRod, and Gio waiting just offstage), dump Cust for Laporta, Hall goes to third, etc. Also the A's need right handed bats, so it fits from that perspective also.. The Brewers have Gamel for 3B or move Braun back and obviously they need MLB SP and as many live arms as they can get. Flags fly forever, BrewCrew failthful.

I wouldn't trade Buck for LaPorta straight up. Throwing in Blanton and DLS for the privilege of eating Hall's contract would be insane.

Gamel is better than Buck right now. But I do agree, rearrange talent should be done, but it is not very easy and the results are not easily apparent. If you know you are headed for the playoffs, it would be done, almost nobody knows they are a lock for the playoffs before the deadline.

There is no way Milwaukee deals both Hall and Gamel and moves Braun back to 3b. Milwaukee has seen an improvement in D this year. If they were going to move Braun back to 3B, LaPorta would be up playing LF next month.

Danny, LaP is a 35 Hr. kind of bat and while I love Buck, he doesn't have that kind of impact. We have some useful players like Barton and Suzuki, but we need more mashing. I'm not aware of Hall's contract so you may have something there.

Gamel is better than Buck right now.

I think you're a wee bit too excited over 100 great at bats. Gamel wasn't rated as a top 100 prospect by BP or BA, and his stats weren't all that great coming into the year. The kid has 99 errors in 257 career games at 3B.

The D-Backs got Haren without giving up their top prospect

Someone alert Carlos Gonzalez that he needs to report to Tucson immediately.

Danny, LaP is a 35 Hr. kind of bat and while I love Buck, he doesn't have that kind of impact. We have some useful players like Barton and Suzuki, but we need more mashing. I'm not aware of Hall's contract so you may have something there.

I don't doubt that LaPorta will outhit Buck; I just think he'll give it all back with his glove. We should also keep in mind that LaPorta is tearing up AA at the same age that Buck had a 130 OPS+ in MLB.