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Thursday, July 31, 2008

GRIFFEY TO WHITE SOX

GUESS WHAT, CHISOX FANS???!!!

WHIFFEY IS NOT YOUR SAVIOR (EITHER)!!!

TOLAXOR Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:51 AM | 159 comment(s)
Related News: Chi White Sox, Cincinnati

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1. Will Young Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:51 AM (#2883796)

Quentin/Griffey/Dye from left to right field will bring a whole new level of "Cover Your Eyes" to OF defense.

2. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk

Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:51 AM (#2883797)

Why? Is there something else in the works? Otherwise it doesn't make much sense on the surface. I'll have to get past my knee jerk response and see what's in this for the Sox.

3. Hack Wilson Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:52 AM (#2883801)

As part of the deal the Reds will swap Jeff Brantley for Darrin Jackson.

4. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:55 AM (#2883807)

Why? Is there something else in the works? Otherwise it doesn't make much sense on the surface. I'll have to get past my knee jerk response and see what's in this for the Sox.

Agreed.

I'm withholding judgment until I find out (1) what the White Sox give up in this deal and (2) what they plan on doing with Griffey. Playing him every day in CF would not be a good thing.

5. ian Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:55 AM (#2883808)

The Tigers might make the playoffs after all!

Good job, Kenny.

6. Darren

Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:58 AM (#2883811)

Griffey to White Sox; White Sox to 3rd place.

7. Crispix Attacks is in the best shape of his life. Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:00 AM (#2883813)

WHIFFEY IS NOT JERRY OWENS!!!!

8. Stately, Plump Buck Mulligan Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:01 AM (#2883815)

Griffey to White Sox; White Sox to 3rd place.

What, no comment implying that Kenny Williams is somehow full of himself or being "uppity," Darren? You're off your game!

9. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:02 AM (#2883818)

I don't get it.

10. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:02 AM (#2883819)

I was told by a friend that Chicago radio has mentioned a rumor involving Swisher back to the A's for Street.

As a standalone, I don't like the Griffey deal but I'll reserve judgment until it's all said and done. That in mind, I always find the "AL Central thanks you again Kenny!" posts pretty amusing...I imagine you can find several similar posts in just about every trade the Sox have made in the last several years (including Quentin, Swisher, Floyd, etc).

My point is that Williams has earned a little goodwill in my book.

11. Hack Wilson Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:02 AM (#2883820)

He has only played 2 games at 1st base, Thome to 1st, Griffey DH?

12. AROM Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:02 AM (#2883821)

As part of the deal the Reds will swap Jeff Brantley for Darrin Jackson.

Darrin Jackson was still a good defensive CF the last time Griffey was a good defender.

13. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:04 AM (#2883822)

I was told by a friend that Chicago radio has mentioned a rumor involving Swisher back to the A's for Street.

That was Steve Stone speculating. There's no substance to that.

EDIT: And Swisher for Street would be a terrible deal from the White Sox' perspective.

14. Cuddyer Mak'er Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:04 AM (#2883823)

As is not made clear by the posting, Griffey has yet to approve this trade. If I were him, I'd wait to see what other shoe drops first, because if I were Ken Griffey Jr. I wouldn't agree to go be a part-time player on a team that isn't comfortably in the playoffs already.

15. Darren

Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:05 AM (#2883825)

Stately, you're awfully sensitive for a guy who does nothing but trash Epstein and the Red Sox front office. I can take the insults, as stupid as they are, but you've got no business calling me a racist.

16. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk

Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:05 AM (#2883826)

I was told by a friend that Chicago radio has mentioned a rumor involving Swisher back to the A's for Street.

This would be hilarious and awesome!

17. Danny Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:05 AM (#2883827)

I was told by a friend that Chicago radio has mentioned a rumor involving Swisher back to the A's for Street.

Yes, please.

18. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:06 AM (#2883828)

If Thome can't play 1B, this trade makes no sense. (I presume that the White Sox are giving up money and a AA reliever.)

The best players on the White Sox play LF and RF, and neither can cover CF, and it'd be pretty insane to shove one of them to 1B for the stretch run. (Huge ups to the player who does it, if he can pull it off, but that's crazy risky.)

People are talking about chaining trades, but I don't understand that, either - Griffey can fake it at RF/LF, or he can DH, and the White Sox do not improve their team by replacing their sitting RF/LF/DH with Griffey. There's no next step in the chain that makes sense. I guess they could try to trade Thome for value and improve the team with the fruits of that trade, but there's no market out there for DHs, and Thome is pretty average at DH.

If Thome can play 1B, then Griffey could mainly DH and occasionally rest the corner outfielders, and his bat would replace Konerko's. But other than that, this trade doesn't improve the White Sox.

19. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:06 AM (#2883829)

Chicago radio is reporting that the Griffey deal would also include either Weathers or Affeldt.

20. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:07 AM (#2883830)

That was Steve Stone speculating. There's no substance to that.

Good...I really like Swisher on this team...

21. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:08 AM (#2883832)

Thome is pretty average at DH.

.385 OBP/ .500 SLG is average nowadays? Tough crowd.

22. Dag Nabbit: formerly tolerant of lactose Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:08 AM (#2883833)

As a standalone, I don't like the Griffey deal but I'll reserve judgment until it's all said and done. That in mind, I always find the "AL Central thanks you again Kenny!" posts pretty amusing...I imagine you can find several similar posts in just about every trade the Sox have made in the last several years (including Quentin, Swisher, Floyd, etc).

Don't forget the original Dye signing.

My point is that Williams has earned a little goodwill in my book.

Agreed. The Sox have done far better than expected 3 of the last 4 years. I don't get his decision, but I don't get a lot of moves Williams has made in recent years, yet they keep winning.

23. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk

Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:11 AM (#2883837)

Agreed. The Sox have done far better than expected 3 of the last 4 years. I don't get his decision, but I don't get a lot of moves Williams has made in recent years, yet they keep winning.

Me, three. He's doing well and some of his moves, questionable to me at the time, worked out fantastically. It's more fun to try to see what he sees at this point than to reflexively bash him.

24. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:11 AM (#2883838)

Chicago radio is reporting that the Griffey deal would also include either Weathers or Affeldt.

Affeldt is an improvement over Logan and Weathers is insurance for Linebrink...I'd like either one. It all depends on what they have to give up, which hopefully isn't much. (And of course what they do with Griffey.)

25. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:14 AM (#2883840)

.385 OBP/ .500 SLG is average nowadays? Tough crowd.

Ooops. Was he hitting worse early in the year, and picked up steam recently? Either way, my bad, shoulda checked it. (I think my point still stands, though, that the market for DHs is nonexistent, and so Thome makes little sense as the player moving out of Chicago in a second chaining trade. That Thome's hitting really good actually makes this point stronger - Griffey's a clear downgrade.)

26. PH Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:14 AM (#2883841)

Griffey is decent insurance if Thome makes his annual 15-day vacation on the disabled list. If he's not meeting Griffey there, that is.

I don't see Thome playing first -- he didn't play there during interleague, and I doubt they risk losing his bat (which has been OPSing 1.000-plus over the last two months) for an experiment like this.

Griffey nixing the deal would pose a question about his legacy, wouldn't it? Especially if there are no better shots at the playoffs down the line.

27. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:15 AM (#2883844)

Don't forget the original Dye signing.

McCarthy for Danks and Masset was panned, as well.

28. PH Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:16 AM (#2883845)

As was the Freddy Garcia deal.

29. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:17 AM (#2883846)

Was he hitting worse early in the year, and picked up steam recently?

He had a rough month of May, but has been good otherwise.

30. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:18 AM (#2883848)

Don't forget the original Dye signing.

I totally defended each Dye signing. Obvious good moves, and Kenny's generally good record in choosing veterans only made it better.

Griffey does seem like another vet that might have something left in the tank for Ozzie and Kenny to wring out of him, but that something doesn't include hitting well enough to displace their LF, RF, or DH, or fielding well enough to fill the hole in CF.

31. Dag Nabbit: formerly tolerant of lactose Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:18 AM (#2883849)

I personally blasted the resigning of AJ last summer. I'm not renouncing it, as he would've still been under contract for this year.

32. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:18 AM (#2883850)

Palmeiro and Sosa both had 500 HR when they were teammates. Have any other teams had two? Jayson Stark is going to love this trade.

33. zonk Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:19 AM (#2883851)

Agreed. The Sox have done far better than expected 3 of the last 4 years. I don't get his decision, but I don't get a lot of moves Williams has made in recent years, yet they keep winning.

I'm not arguing that KW doesn't get the credit he probably deserves/gets unfairly bashed -- but come on... that doesn't mean he should get a pass for acquiring Ken Griffey.

As Matt points out above, Griffey is a step down from what they have at the only positions Griffey can legitimately play (can we all agree if KW thinks Griffey can play CF, however underrated he may be as a GM -- that's a really, really dumb idea). There is no chain of moves that makes acquiring Griffey a good idea unless there's some sort of crazy Jim Thome for David Price deal lurking.

The moves that KW didn't get proper credit for generally involved acquiring players that were coming off injuries and were therefore big question marks (Quentin), were salvage projects (Jenks), or were otherwise gambles that paid off handsomely. That doesn't mean KW was throwing darts at a board - he certainly did his homework and it paid off.

This isn't throwing darts at board. Ken Griffey is a 38 yo, oft-injured corner OF/DH who hasn't slugged .500 in 4 years. This is a deal without any upside. It's reeks of a 'PR' deal -- look, look -- we've acquired first ballot HOFer Ken Griffey!

34. CWS Keith Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:20 AM (#2883852)

Was he hitting worse early in the year, and picked up steam recently?

Recently being since June -- he's put up two consecutive +1.000 OPS months.

And about the trade... Kenny has to know that putting Griffey in CF would be as bad or worse than putting Dye in Thome in CF, right? Who knows... maybe the Sox just acquired a very expensive bench player. Since that's not likely, I think Dye, Thome or Griffey himself will see time at first base if this goes through. Konerko isn't much defensively himself and -- just from my eyes -- it looks like Konerko has brought his offensive slump to the field (not that he was ever great there in the first place).

35. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:22 AM (#2883854)

putting Griffey in CF would be as bad or worse than putting Dye in Thome

Ewww.

36. Dag Nabbit: formerly tolerant of lactose Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:22 AM (#2883855)

I'm not arguing that KW doesn't get the credit he probably deserves/gets unfairly bashed -- but come on... that doesn't mean he should get a pass for acquiring Ken Griffey.

I don't mind people blasting the trade as much as the sentiment up thread that it'll cause Detroit to win the division and the Sox to fall to third.

37. Vogon Poet Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:23 AM (#2883858)

Griffey hasn't had a .385 OBP since 2000 and hasn't had a .500 SLG since 2005. Moving to the AL, I'd peg him at .250/.350/.460. That's makes him probably 1 win above average. An average player in the NL is 2 WAR, DH position adjustment is -1.5 wins, and he's gotta be -0.5 wins on the basepaths. That makes him a 1 WAR player. And he might be below replacement level if he plays the field.

38. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:25 AM (#2883861)

I personally blasted the resigning of AJ last summer. I'm not renouncing it, as he would've still been under contract for this year.

Same here. I was against the Konerko extension, the Dye extension, and the Pierzynski extension.

I liked the Buehrle extension.

39. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:26 AM (#2883862)

I don't mind people blasting the trade as much as the sentiment up thread that it'll cause Detroit to win the division and the Sox to fall to third.

That's fair. We're deep enough into KW's tenure that we can say with confidence that his record is a lot better than this comment board rated it over time, through individual acquisitions.

I think I've been very fair to KW, and I think he's done a good job, and I do not understand this acquisition at all. (Any anti White Sox snark on my part was surely directed at Buck, who's had a bee in his bonnet about the Red Sox for five years.)

40. ian Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:27 AM (#2883863)

As a standalone, I don't like the Griffey deal but I'll reserve judgment until it's all said and done. That in mind, I always find the "AL Central thanks you again Kenny!" posts pretty amusing...I imagine you can find several similar posts in just about every trade the Sox have made in the last several years (including Quentin, Swisher, Floyd, etc).

Nope. Just this one.

Quentin was an obvious win. Swisher, not so sure that's something to be bragging about. He's been okay.

41. zonk Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:27 AM (#2883865)

I don't mind people blasting the trade as much as the sentiment up thread that it'll cause Detroit to win the division and the Sox to fall to third.

Fair enough.

I don't buy into the gnashing of teeth over the I-Rod trade - Dave Dom hasn't exactly had a good 6 months, and with the Twins insisting that Livan Hernandez belongs in the rotation over Francisco Liriano.

In a vacuum - picking up Griffey just isn't very smart.

In the context of the moves the Tigers and Twins have made/haven't made over the last 6-8 months, it's far from the dumbest.

42. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:31 AM (#2883870)

Swisher, not so sure that's something to be bragging about. He's been okay.

Ryan Sweeney's been unexpectedly good, but I think that'll work out for the Sox in the long run.

43. AROM Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:31 AM (#2883871)

Moving to the AL, I'd peg him at .250/.350/.460. That's makes him probably 1 win above average. An average player in the NL is 2 WAR

If you knock his numbers in moving to the AL, then use the AL replacement level at 2.5 wins below average.

44. SouthSideRyan Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:31 AM (#2883872)

I listened to sports radio on the way in today because I heard the trade as I left the house. I think a caller summed it up best by saying it's Carl Everett in a Griffey mask.

Mully talked about what a great defensive upgrade Griffey was over Swisher in CF...

I'm not sure he even realizes that Griffey hasn't been playing CF in Cincy for awhile.

45. AlouGoodbye Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:32 AM (#2883875)

Well, this could be part of a three-way deal. From everything that is going on, it seems the Pirates are the ones holding up the Manny deal by asking for Stanton. This could enable Boston to cut out the Pirates and make the Marlins trade. Manny + cash -> Marlins, Dye -> Boston, and some prospects/relievers float around to balance out the value.

46. Edmundo is Super Average Man

Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:33 AM (#2883876)

As was the Freddy Garcia deal.

I remember some Sox fan at the time being ecstatic, as he was sure that Garcia was damaged goods.
Probably Pat Gillick's worst Philly moment, with the Adam Eaton signing and the giveaway of Abreu in the competition but falling short.

47. Stately, Plump Buck Mulligan Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:33 AM (#2883877)

The moves that KW didn't get proper credit for generally involved acquiring players that were coming off injuries and were therefore big question marks (Quentin), were salvage projects (Jenks), or were otherwise gambles that paid off handsomely. That doesn't mean KW was throwing darts at a board - he certainly did his homework and it paid off.

This isn't throwing darts at board. Ken Griffey is a 38 yo, oft-injured corner OF/DH who hasn't slugged .500 in 4 years. This is a deal without any upside. It's reeks of a 'PR' deal -- look, look -- we've acquired first ballot HOFer Ken Griffey!

KW is at his best when he's working at the edges, picking up good players who have been ignored by other teams for one reason or another. I think he's at his worst when he's picking up "name" players (think David Wells, Roberto Alomar, Bartolo Colon) -- he seemed more interested in that type of thing earlier in his career as GM. Thome has worked out surprisingly well, although CF has been a problem since Rowand left.

The problem with the White Sox is that they don't have any clear areas of upgrade. That doesn't mean they are a great team -- they're good, occasionally very good -- just that they appear to be stuck with what they've got. The best ways to upgrade would be for Swisher and Konerko to start hitting, and for the power triumverate (Contreras, Crede, Linebrink) to return from the DL.

I don't mind people blasting the trade as much as the sentiment up thread that it'll cause Detroit to win the division and the Sox to fall to third.

Hey, pretty much every stathead agreed that the Tigers or Indians would win the division, and that the Twins and White Sox would suck. Those folks have already looked ridiculous for much of the year -- why wouldn't they double down now?

48. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:34 AM (#2883879)

Well, this could be part of a three-way deal. From everything that is going on, it seems the Pirates are the ones holding up the Manny deal by asking for Stanton. This could enable Boston to cut out the Pirates and make the Marlins trade. Manny + cash -> Marlins, Dye -> Boston, and some prospects/relievers float around to balance out the value.

And the White Sox would make that move, why?

49. Crispix Attacks is in the best shape of his life. Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:34 AM (#2883880)

As was the Freddy Garcia deal.

That was the same as the Gavin Floyd deal, already mentioned.

50. AROM Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:35 AM (#2883882)

Manny + cash -> Marlins, Dye -> Boston, and some prospects/relievers float around to balance out the value.

Or maybe Griffey is headed to Boston. Nah, I still like Griffey, even if he's a shell of his former self. I wouldn't wish that punishment on him.

51. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:35 AM (#2883883)

That was the same as the Gavin Floyd deal, already mentioned.

I think he meant the original deal (Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and a prospect to Seattle for Garcia). People thought that Williams was insane.

52. CWS Keith Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:38 AM (#2883885)

That was the same as the Gavin Floyd deal, already mentioned.

I think PH was referring to the first Garcia deal, in which Kenny was blasted to high heaven for giving up the best prospect ever, Jeremy Reed, as well as Miguel Olivo.

53. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:38 AM (#2883887)

I think he meant the original deal (Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and a prospect to Seattle for Garcia). People thought that Williams was insane.

Oh, right. If I remember correctly, that was the year that Jeremy Reed hit .400 and his PECOTA comps were Joe DiMaggio, Jesus and Fergie.

54. AlouGoodbye Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:39 AM (#2883888)

And the White Sox would make that move, why?

To get some prospects and/or help the bullpen, and/or because Kenny thinks Griffey will outhit Dye the rest of the way, how should I know? But this trade makes very little sense on its own. Thome can't play first any more, Griffey can't play center any more, has never played first in his life and won't waive his no-trade to sit on the bench, and it makes no sense to sit Quentin or Dye on the bench. Kenny Williams is not an idiot so I assume there is another move.

55. PH Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:41 AM (#2883889)

I think he meant the original deal (Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and a prospect to Seattle for Garcia). People thought that Williams was insane.

Correct. MGL called it something like a stupid move by a stupid organization that has no idea how numbers work.

56. Moses Taylor's bus bench has been Tom Sellecked Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:48 AM (#2883893)

57. DL from MN Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:48 AM (#2883895)

> I'd peg him at .250/.350/.460. That's makes him...

Jason Kubel (both offensively and defensively). The Twins wouldn't play Jason Kubel in CF the rest of the season.

58. SouthSideRyan Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:48 AM (#2883897)

To be fair MGL calls everybody stupid.

59. retro-shiite Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:04 AM (#2883919)

To be fair MGL calls everybody stupid.

MGL calling you stupid is pretty much the "Will Carroll confirms that..." of front office analysis.

60. Danny Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:04 AM (#2883921)

As a standalone, I don't like the Griffey deal but I'll reserve judgment until it's all said and done. That in mind, I always find the "AL Central thanks you again Kenny!" posts pretty amusing...I imagine you can find several similar posts in just about every trade the Sox have made in the last several years (including Quentin, Swisher, Floyd, etc).

I'd be shocked if anyone thought giving up prospects for Quentin and Swisher caused anyone to say the Sox were giving away the division title.

61. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:05 AM (#2883924)

According to sportsline.com:

The White Sox will send second baseman Danny Richar and reliever Nick Masset to the Reds.

62. Matt H. Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:07 AM (#2883928)

So there is not one person here that has stated the obvious yet: perhaps Griffey is being brought in as a LH bat off the bench? 110OPS+ against RHP this year and he can plausibly play LF, RF, 1B and DH.

What about moving Dye to 1B? That move has been talked about as Dye continues to age. IMO this move is insurance against the (this year at least) carcass of Paul Konerko. A player like Griffey, who has usefullness against the majority of pitchers in the league, is an upgrade on this year's PK.

63. Gamingboy Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:08 AM (#2883930)

One of my favorite players on one of my least favorite teams.

DOES.
NOT.
COMPUTE.

AHHHHH! I HAVE A HEADACHE!

64. PH Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:08 AM (#2883932)

The White Sox will send second baseman Danny Richar and reliever Nick Masset to the Reds.

HOORAY!

65. rfloh Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:11 AM (#2883936)

The White Sox will send second baseman Danny Richar and reliever Nick Masset to the Reds.

So, the Reds are dumping salary? Richar is going to be blocked, with Brandon Phillips and Jeff Keppinger.

66. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:12 AM (#2883938)

EDIT: my bad, misread the post. carry on

67. Vogon Poet Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:20 AM (#2883955)

#43: Good catch. Thanks.

68. CWS Keith Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:21 AM (#2883956)

So, the Reds are dumping salary?

I'm reading on various message boards that Cincy is picking up the tab on the rest of Griffey's contract.

69. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:25 AM (#2883963)

Masset is worthless.

Richar has a bit of potential, but he's not a star.

70. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:25 AM (#2883965)

I'm reading on various message boards that Cincy is picking up the tab on the rest of Griffey's contract.

Then what's the point from the Reds' perspective?

71. The Joe Mauer Power Hour (kj) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:27 AM (#2883972)

Hey, pretty much every stathead agreed that the Tigers or Indians would win the division, and that the Twins and White Sox would suck.

Pretty much every human being agreed on that. No need to turn it into a stathead thing. It's been a very surprising year in the AL Central.

72. Gamingboy Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:27 AM (#2883974)

I demand that the Twins respo....

Who am I kidding?

73. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk

Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:31 AM (#2883986)

Pretty much every human being agreed on that. No need to turn it into a stathead thing. It's been a very surprising year in the AL Central.

Yeah. Go back and read the MSM predictions. It wasn't just that the Indians or Tigers would win, but it was what level of greatness each team might achieve. I was half right about the Sox! I didn't think they'd be in first, but I didn't think they were as bad as being advertised. That's me all right, Half-Right Shooty! It's a nickname that doesn't play as well with the ladies as I'd like.

74. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:33 AM (#2883994)

Robothal reporting that Griffey approved the trade.

75. CWS Keith Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:33 AM (#2883996)

Then what's the point from the Reds' perspective?

I'm not sure, but here's the link:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10914920

" The Cincinnati Reds will get infielder Danny Richar and right-handed pitcher Nick Masset in the deal, according to sources. Cincinnati will also pay the remaining $4 million on Griffey's contract."

76. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:35 AM (#2884000)

" The Cincinnati Reds will get infielder Danny Richar and right-handed pitcher Nick Masset in the deal, according to sources. Cincinnati will also pay the remaining $4 million on Griffey's contract."

I guess they avoid having to pay the buyout for next year.

77. Cuddyer Mak'er Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:39 AM (#2884007)

Then what's the point from the Reds' perspective?

Probably nothing more sinister than giving a great and popular player a chance to win a championship, at little if any cost to themselves.

78. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:40 AM (#2884008)

The Minnesota Pioneer Press also says Griffey approved the trade.

79. tribefan Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM (#2884009)

It's been a very surprising year in the AL Central.

tell me about it...

80. zonk Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:42 AM (#2884013)

Heh...

Well, if Griffey's range, arm, and general defensive abilities travel through a time warp on his trip from Cincinnati to Chicago -- I think this trade will work out just fine for the White Sox.

81. Craig in MN Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:46 AM (#2884018)

I demand that the Twins respo....

Who am I kidding?

No need to respond. This is the White Sox responding to the Twins. A month ago, the Twins decided to keep Liriano in the minors and keep starting Livan Hernandez. The White Sox were determined to downgrade as well.

82. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:46 AM (#2884019)

I'd be shocked if anyone thought giving up prospects for Quentin and Swisher caused anyone to say the Sox were giving away the division title.

Swisher link: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/sfgate_as_trade_swisher/

Quentin link: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/news_dbacks_to_trade_quentin_to_white_sox/

83. CWS Keith Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:55 AM (#2884030)

I don't know... if the Sox play Griffey at first (which is probably as likely as the speculation that he'll play CF) to platoon with Konerko, that's a pretty big upgrade (relatively speaking) for the rest of the season. Even getting a league-average bat there would likely be an improvement over the slumping and possibly hurt Paul Konerko (at least for the rest of this season).

84. Darren

Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:56 AM (#2884034)

Just glancing through the Swisher thread, it looks like people were saying that it was a sign the White Sox were going for it, although many disagreed with that decision. I don't see a lot of talk about them giving away the division.

85. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:59 AM (#2884036)

Maybe Griffey plays first, Konerko to the DL as a face-saving move.

86. The Joe Mauer Power Hour (kj) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:04 AM (#2884041)

Maybe Griffey plays first, Konerko to the DL as a face-saving move.

Wouldn't Thome at first make more sense than Junior at first?

87. zonk Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:07 AM (#2884046)

Just glancing through the Swisher thread, it looks like people were saying that it was a sign the White Sox were going for it, although many disagreed with that decision. I don't see a lot of talk about them giving away the division.

The Quentin thread also -- it seems to mainly be fans of other teams complaining "THIS is all it took to get Quentin?" There were a few naysayers (levski, shoewizard), but at least from the threads posted -- I'm afraid I've gotta throw the strawman flag for anyone claiming that KW/the Sox got ripped for either the Swisher or Quentin trade.

No one expected Quentin to go this gonzo - but let's be realistic... NO ONE IN THE WORLD could have reasonably expected Carlos Quentin to turn into in-his-prime Manny Rameriz.

88. Gamingboy Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:09 AM (#2884049)

No need to respond. This is the White Sox responding to the Twins. A month ago, the Twins decided to keep Liriano in the minors and keep starting Livan Hernandez. The White Sox were determined to downgrade as well.

Good point, but it has been a decade or more since Griffey was in a pennant race, he's got nothing to lose (well, except his health) and everyring (mispelling caused pun intended) to gain. He might bust out into a last hurrah.

89. Jimmy P Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:10 AM (#2884050)

Wouldn't Thome at first make more sense than Junior at first?

No. Thome got hurt the last time he played first and Ozzie isn't risking it. He wouldn't let Thome play first in interleague, either.

90. Stately, Plump Buck Mulligan Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:14 AM (#2884059)

Wouldn't Thome at first make more sense than Junior at first?

It would seem so -- at least he has experience there, though I think the White Sox dislike playing Thome at first because of the injury possibility. Dye doesn't really have experience at first; otherwise, that would work if Konerko is dealt or DL'ed.

Barring another trade, I think a convoluted job-sharing arrangement would probably be best, just to keep everyone happy and fresh. You've got five guys (Thome, Konerko, Griffey, Swisher, Dye) for four positions. Dye needs to start pretty much every day, but maybe move him to DH when a lefty is pitching, in place of Thome, and let Griffey play RF. Or let Griffey DH. (Would that arrangement tick off Thome because it prevents his option from vesting? He needs 1100 plate appearances for '07 to '08 to guarantee the option, and is currently at 931. He averages 4 per game, and the Sox have 56 games left.)

From what I'm hearing on this board, Griffey in CF would not be pretty. Can he play there at all? (Like maybe 2 of every 5 games?)

91. Matt H. Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:17 AM (#2884061)

Some of those Quentin responses are classic, "Lastings Millege is younger than Quentin, better than Quentin, and has a higher ceiling than Quentin". Meanwhile Quentin has an OPS+ of 141 and Milledge is at 72. I know it's only one year but ouch.

Another great one, "Quentin has no plate discipline and pitchers will just throw it further and further outside and it's comical how he will get himself out." Meanwhile Quentin has an IsoD of over .100 this year.

92. Jimmy P Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:17 AM (#2884063)

From what I'm hearing on this board, Griffey in CF would not be pretty. Can he play there at all? (Like maybe 2 of every 5 games?)

Yeah, but you could just put a big bucket out there, too. Has about the same range.

93. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:19 AM (#2884066)

This is my favorite quote from the Swisher thread:

Exactly. The White Sox are making a furious charge at 86 wins (probably their upside if their old guys all rally) with no real chance at the playoffs. They will be putrid in 2 years, or sooner, and have zero young prospects.

94. Jimmy P Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:20 AM (#2884069)

Exactly. The White Sox are making a furious charge at 86 wins (probably their upside if their old guys all rally) with no real chance at the playoffs. They will be putrid in 2 years, or sooner, and have zero young prospects.

That has to be Jerry Royster Experience.

95. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk

Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:20 AM (#2884072)

Another great one, "Quentin has no plate discipline and pitchers will just throw it further and further outside and it's comical how he will get himself out." Meanwhile Quentin has an IsoD of over .100 this year.

Yep. If I went back and read all my posts over the last couple of years, I know I would be humbled both by my limited baseball knowledge and how spectacularly unfunny I can be. So...I think I'll avoid that project for a while.

96. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:24 AM (#2884077)

NO ONE IN THE WORLD could have reasonably expected Carlos Quentin to turn into in-his-prime Manny Ramirez.

This is classic BTF nitpicking, as your point stands regardless, but Quentin's 2008 would be by a significant margin the worst hitting year in Manny's prime.

97. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:26 AM (#2884082)

That has to be Jerry Royster Experience.

That was not me, although my immediate reaction was to hate that trade. I've since come around.

EDIT: My embarrassing line from that thread - "Well, the White Sox are probably better than the Twins right now (and they definitely will be better if Santana gets dealt). But, of course, that doesn't really matter, does it?"

Wrong on so many levels.

98. zonk Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:29 AM (#2884087)

This is classic BTF nitpicking, as your point stands regardless, but Quentin's 2008 would be by a significant margin the worst hitting year in Manny's prime.

Heh, I guess I'll have to respond with classic BTF defensiveness and admit you're right -- adding that I just got lazy trying to come up with a good comp for my point.

Eerily enough, though -- Quentin, posting a 143 OPS+ in his age 25 season -- would like right at home in Manny's "pre-prime" age 23/24/25/26 seasons, so maybe I should have just dropped the "prime".

99. Matt H. Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:29 AM (#2884088)

This is classic BTF nitpicking, as your point stands regardless, but Quentin's 2008 would be by a significant margin the worst hitting year in Manny's prime.

Yea, Manny's prime was pretty damn great. As great as Quentin has been, he hasn't been that good.

100. Stately, Plump Buck Mulligan Posted: July 31, 2008 at 11:31 AM (#2884091)

As great as Quentin has been, he hasn't been that good.

Isn't the more appropriate comp David Ortiz's first year with Boston?

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