I dislike football, especially Pro football, but that photo on the NYT obit is fantastic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/18/sports/football/18baugh.html?hp

To borrow from the movie thread, that's kind of a Blake Edwards moment for me. RIP Sammy.

Sammy Baugh was alive?

Quiet as it's kept, along with Deion Sanders, Sammy Baugh may have been the best all-around player in football history. There were quite a few two way players in the early days of pro football, but none of them quite as good as he was.

I totally agree with #4.

I've played around a bit with normalizing pro football stats and if you adjust for era, Baugh's numbers are completely eye-popping. Not to mention what a terrific defensive back he was. Not to mention the fact that he's the NFL's all-time leader in punting average.

Greatest pro football player ever. There was literally nothing on a football field he couldn't do. Run, pass, kick, tackle, Baugh was great at everything.

It was there that he picked up the nickname “Slingin’ Sammy”—but it wasn’t for his passing. It was for the rockets he fired to first base as a shortstop and third baseman.

I didn't know that. Another reason to admire him.

RIP

I've been having trouble finding that minor league database. Thanks, Gamingboy.

On that minors stat link, the Throws stat for Sammy is "?" There's a whole lot of old football footage this morning that shows he threw right handed. And aren't all regular 20th century shortstops right-handed throwers?

When I was a kid, I recall getting a book on football for Christmas. It had a chapter about some season where Doak Walker had a line in tons of statistical categories. I think he returned kicks, intercepted a ball, punted, passed, and rushed. I loved that book, BTW. I would have been from around 1977 and had stories about Georgie Tech's 222-0 game and LC Owens blocking a field goal at the uprights and may've mentioned Whizzer White as well.

I had a book that had a chapter on Baugh. It mentioned that he tried out for the Cardinals at the same time as Marty Marion, but that he couldn't hit a curve for spit and Marion could and that's what washed him out.

BTW, does anyone know how to pronounce his name? Did it rhyme with "cow" or "raw"?

I've always heard Sammy Baugh to rhyme with Evelyn Waugh.

How do you pronounce Evelyn Waugh's name?

Rhymes with law, IIRC.

Eave-lynn.

How do you pronounce Evelyn Waugh's name?

Ignore the gh.

if you adjust for era, Baugh's numbers are completely eye-popping.

I believe his career had significant WWII issues. Talent depletion of the NFL from the war might be more severe than even baseball during Baugh's prime. All this aside from the fact that he was bascially the only pass-first qb in the league at the time.

I believe his career had significant WWII issues. Talent depletion of the NFL from the war might be more severe than even baseball during Baugh's prime. All this aside from the fact that he was bascially the only passing qb in the league at the time.

Totally agree on the "WWII Effect" being greater in the NFL: It got so bad that teams had to combine (the "Phil/Pit Steagles", the "Chi/Pit Cardinal/Steelers"), but I think it's safe to say that even if the NFL was normal during those years, Baugh would have still been head and shoulders above most everyone else.

During WWII, Baugh led the NFL in passing attempts just once, 1943. Green Bay was passing a lot during that time, mainly because the Packers had Don Hutson to catch the passes. Sid Luckman played throughout WWII and put up some pretty impressive passing numbers for the Bears.

Baugh's most accurate season was during the war in 1945 when he completed 70.3% of his passes. Yet he didn't win the MVP that year. Rookie Bob Waterfield of the Cleveland Rams won and the Rams won the championship over Washington because of safety they picked up when Baugh threw a pass out of his end zone that hit the goal post, which was a safety at the time. The final score was 15-14.

I've played around a bit with normalizing pro football stats and if you adjust for era, Baugh's numbers are completely eye-popping.

I calculated a very simple "Passer Rating +" to compare individual rating to the league average. League passer ratings have been going up steadily since the dawn of time. Of people I looked at, Baugh narrowly trails Sid Luckman for best career PR+. Some of the individual seasons they put up could never be equaled now. They had multiple seasons when their PR was twice the league average. Nowadays even a perfect PR (essentially impossible to do; no INT for an entire season) is a little less than twice the league average.

When I was a kid, I recall getting a book on football for Christmas. It had a chapter about some season where Doak Walker had a line in tons of statistical categories. I think he returned kicks, intercepted a ball, punted, passed, and rushed. I loved that book, BTW. I would have been from around 1977 and had stories about Georgie Tech's 222-0 game and LC Owens blocking a field goal at the uprights and may've mentioned Whizzer White as well.

That likely was "Strange, but True Football Stories" or "More Strange but True Football Stories" by Zander Hollander.

It's illegal now in the NFL to block a field goal by standing at the uprights.

#9-Was it Strange but True Football Stories, GGC?

If so, I had that book too...The Lonely End, Tommy Chang at Plainfield Teachers' College, the
Sneaker Game, etc.

Imagine if today's football players had to play both offense and defense, as was done in Baugh's day. I think every current NFL quarterback would have apoplexy just contemplating playing secondary.

Bob T. beat me to it.

I borrowed the Pro FOotball HIstorical Abstract from the library. I'll have to see what Lahman said about VBaugh.

Guys, that might be the right book. I think it came with two more paperback books. One was a Stan Fischler opus about hockey.

I think every current NFL quarterback would have apoplexy just contemplating playing secondary.

Most newer QB's likely wouldn't be in the secondary, they'd be linebackers. Ben Roethlisberger would be an interesting OLB (with sufficient weight-training). Same with Vince Young.

What you wouldn't see are the technicians like Tom Brady. The dude is an amazing QB, but I can't imagine him suiting up at any defensive position.

I think the thread book of the set might have been profiles of the guys on the all-time baseball team selected in 1969. I knew who Pie Traynor was when I was a kid and that may be why.

Imagine if today's football players had to play both offense and defense, as was done in Baugh's day. I think every current NFL quarterback would have apoplexy just contemplating playing secondary.

I seem to remember Deion Sanders being used every once in awhile as a wide receiver.

Imagine if today's football players had to play both offense and defense, as was done in Baugh's day.

There will be tons of injuries. Half the league would be running the option with the fourth string qb in the latter part of the season.

Obviously the NFL population would be different than it is now if players still went both ways. You can't just look at the current stars and laugh about how they'd function in another position, because they wouldn't have developed the same.

I seem to remember Deion Sanders being used every once in awhile as a wide receiver.

He was used that way occasionally, just as Troy Brown spent time at both WR and DB, based on the immediate needs of New England.

Obviously the NFL population would be different than it is now if players still went both ways.

72% more fabulous?

The Broncos had a guy who played both fullback and linebacker this season. I don't think he was very good at either.

And don't forget the Fridge, defensive tackle / sometime running back for the Bears of the 1980s.

Obviously the NFL population would be different than it is now if players still went both ways. You can't just look at the current stars and laugh about how they'd function in another position, because they wouldn't have developed the same.

Without specialization the sophisticated NFL passing game, the reason its popularity overtook college football, would never have been very widespread let alone become standard.

In addition to the others mentioned about, Devin Hester is occasionally being used on offense, defense and is returning kicks. Playing two ways isn't uncommon even now. What is unheard of are players who are full timers on both sides the way Slingin' Sammy was.

Quiet as it's kept, along with Deion Sanders, Sammy Baugh may have been the best all-around player in football history. There were quite a few two way players in the early days of pro football, but none of them quite as good as he was.

Bronko Nagurski would like to have a word...

Baugh was the best combo of QB/DB. Nagurski was the best combo of RB/LB. Nagurski also played on the O-line.

The Broncos had a guy who played both fullback and linebacker this season. I don't think he was very good at either.
For the Eagles, Dan Klecko started as a FB this year, sucked, was shifted back to DL, and when Tony Hunt sucked at FB more than Klecko, they move Klecko back to FB.

"So what is he, Mr. Reid?"
"My FB"
"Uh, my tackle"
"Well, which one?"
"My FB... [Slap] My tack [Slap] My FB and my tackle!" [Sobbing commences]

I believe his career had significant WWII issues. Talent depletion of the NFL from the war might be more severe than even baseball during Baugh's prime.

I'm not going to argue that WWII didn't significantly weaken the league, but Baugh was actually not really any better from '42-'44 than he was for the rest of his career. Maybe this is a strike against him, I don't know.

All this aside from the fact that he was bascially the only pass-first qb in the league at the time.

That's not really true, but I hear it a lot. Guys like Ace Parker, Davey O'Brien and Ed Danowski were throwing just as much as Baugh in the late 30s. Baugh led the league in pass attempts twice in his first 10 years in the league. By the time he starts to regularly lead the league in passing attempts in the late 40s, you've got guys like Luckman and Waterfield throwing the ball all over the place.

I calculated a very simple "Passer Rating +" to compare individual rating to the league average. League passer ratings have been going up steadily since the dawn of time. Of people I looked at, Baugh narrowly trails Sid Luckman for best career PR+. Some of the individual seasons they put up could never be equaled now. They had multiple seasons when their PR was twice the league average. Nowadays even a perfect PR (essentially impossible to do; no INT for an entire season) is a little less than twice the league average.

Well, in theory, this could be because of the arbitrary caps on the components of PR (which seem a little silly to me; what's their etymology?) although in practice for an entire season no one ever hits those.

When I was a kid, I recall getting a book on football for Christmas. It had a chapter about some season where Doak Walker had a line in tons of statistical categories. I think he returned kicks, intercepted a ball, punted, passed, and rushed. I loved that book, BTW. I would have been from around 1977 and had stories about Georgie Tech's 222-0 game and LC Owens blocking a field goal at the uprights and may've mentioned Whizzer White as well.

Doak Walker was an earlier version of Paul Hornung: Not great in any one thing, but very, very good in a lot of things. But in neither case did any of them involve defense.

BTW that was R.C. Owens, not L.C., and he achieved his first burst of glory in 1957 as the (49er) receiver of Y.A. Tittle's "alley-oop" passes, where Tittle would just lob it high and Owens would outjump the defender with ease. When you had smaller defenders trying to cover him, it was as if he were playing against high schoolers.

-------------------

Quiet as it's kept, along with Deion Sanders, Sammy Baugh may have been the best all-around player in football history. There were quite a few two way players in the early days of pro football, but none of them quite as good as he was.

Bronko Nagurski would like to have a word...

Point well noted, Deadball. I'd forgotten about Nagurski's great defensive prowess. But one of only three all-time great two-ways is still pretty sporty.

---------------

All this aside from the fact that he was bascially the only pass-first qb in the league at the time.

That's not really true, but I hear it a lot. Guys like Ace Parker, Davey O'Brien and Ed Danowski were throwing just as much as Baugh in the late 30s. Baugh led the league in pass attempts twice in his first 10 years in the league. By the time he starts to regularly lead the league in passing attempts in the late 40s, you've got guys like Luckman and Waterfield throwing the ball all over the place.

O'Brien succeeded Baugh as the QB at Texas Christian, and in the early and mid-30's many Texas teams were famed for what was known as their "aerial circus" brand of offense, that featured one pass after another. As a member of the 1940 Eagles, O'Brien and Baugh once hooked up in a memorable pro duel in which O'Brien threw 60 passes and completed 33 for 316 yards, and yet could only come up with 6 points as the Redskins beat them 13 to 6.

this could be because of the arbitrary caps on the components of PR

Yes, that is absolutely the reason.

Lahman has Baugh as the #9 punter and the #17 QB.

FWIW, I think that some defenders are more versatile today than their earlier brethren were. Some of these zone blitzing schemes require players to be able to pass rush and defend against at least short passes.

Rookie Bob Waterfield of the Cleveland Rams won and the Rams won the championship over Washington because of safety they picked up when Baugh threw a pass out of his end zone that hit the goal post, which was a safety at the time.

Because of the phrasing, this has me thinking of Abe Simpson's "onions on the belt" speech.


It's illegal now in the NFL to block a field goal by standing at the uprights.

Really? Isn't it still legal to return a short field goal attempt? If so, couldn't he argue he was just fielding the kick then decided not to bring it out? (I guess that makes it a touchback and you wouldn't get the ball at the spot.)

Wouldn't be a touchback: in those days NFL uprights were on the goal line, not the end line.

Really? Isn't it still legal to return a short field goal attempt?

Devin Hester returned one for a TD a few years ago.

Yeah; against the Giants. There was a TD return in a Jets game at some point in recent years as well. I think that they were both attempts from waaaay out that fell short.

Last season Antonion Cromartie returned one 109 yards against the Vikes.

It used to be legal to try to block a field goal by standing under the crossbar, until Hank Stram put 6'10" backup TE Morris Stroud there. I don't know if he ever blocked any, but the other coaches moaned about it and the NFL outlawed it.