I can't watch video at work, but does it really make sense that either Mariano got away with it for all of these years in the most intense media environment in the world, or that he started throwing the spitball this series?

I always thought you spit in your hand when you did the spit ball.

Also, this is not conclusive of anything. To my eyes it looks like mariano is spitting to the ground but the angle is tricky.

If he is throwing the spitball he's not hiding it well in the video.

I dunno. Could be just an angle thing. He coulda been spitting away from the ball. EDIT: Paul beat me to it.

The comments section of that post! Wow...operatically overwrought. (Even by "Playing the Yankees in October" standards.)

There is no way he actually spit on the ball there.

If he did, he is the most incompetent cheater in the game.

You do not spit on the ball when you throw a spitball. You don't even spit on your hands. You wet your fingertips. That's it. Then when you throw it, the reduced friction off the tips causes what amounts to a fast knuckleball with more control.

Good bbref explanation of the spitball, for those unaware.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, threw a spitball the way this claims Rivera is doing it.

Looks like the ALCS is taking a toll on some Angels fans. The video is laughable. Can't tell for sure but it doesn't look like the spit even hit the ball. If it did, why cut off the video before you could see the splatter? And is this bozo really cotending that Rivera has been doing that on every pitch since he "is able to throw only one pitch"? Should be a lot more video if that were the case. Perhaps the post was just a joke but a lot of the commenters on that Angels blog are taking it seriously.

The video looks bad, but there's no way he's spitting on the ball. No one is that stupid, especially Rivera.

Halofan caters to the lowest common denominator, and the content on his execrable blog is the evidence.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, threw a spitball the way this claims Rivera is doing it.

Wait a second, Jeff. In the article that you linked to, it specifically says that there are two different spitball pitches. One is what you said, wetting fingertips. But the other is actually placing saliva on the ball, which would be what Rivera is accused of doing here.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, threw a spitball the way this claims Rivera is doing it.

From Craig Wright & Eric Nadel's Baseball Past.

The second coming of the spitball had pitchers who were getting a huge break on the pitch, and rather than wetting their fingers, they focused on moistening a spot on the ball itself. Some were described as slobbering on the ball, and a few even licked the ball directly with their tongues.

If it did, why cut off the video before you could see the splatter?

I'm pretty sure this is the FOX feed, I don't think cutting off the video is indicative of anything.

I'd imagine that many MLB folks have fooled around with the spitter out of natural curiosity if nothing else, so I'd imagine they're generally hip to what it might do. If Rivera were using it, I'd imagine he'd have heard accusations from oppositing hitters/managers by now, which I don't think is the case.

This is the only inning I watched of the game yesterday (so sue me) and even I remember that there were runners on second, third, and first during the time Rivera pitched. If you're going to step off the mound, you better check the runners. If he were checking the umpires, his eye angle would be further into the outfield.

On the other hand, it does look to me like he's spitting on the ball, not past it. But I have no dog in this hunt.

Are you kidding me? I mean, I guess it's natural for fans of the team that's on the hook for Sarge Jr's contract to be bitter, but this? Especially after a win? Please.

Are you just trying to smack around Angels fans in general, Essex, or do you actually believe that albatross contracts result in mental destabilization among the fanbase?

Good bbref explanation of the spitball, for those unaware.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, threw a spitball the way this claims Rivera is doing it.

Primey for worst comment of the year!

#11 pointed it out. I mean, did you even look at the link? Or think about what you were saying?

The "hard knuckleball with lubed fingertips" pitch seems like something that would take an immense amount of practice, as well as constant deception, and I would hazard a guess that nobody really throws that today. The "loogy-on-the-side-of-the-ball" version seems like a pitch that anyone could throw, just like the scuffed or vaselined ball: it makes the pitches you already throw just a bit more biting. There are probably a hundred modern pitchers that have used this technique, but only in very rare situations, just like a hitter peaking back at the catcher's setup only a few times in a year.

No way! Halo's Heaven jumped the shark? Again? Really?

If the spitball makes your normal pitches bite even more than they otherwise would, does it make any sense to use them with a man on third and "Human Passed Ball" Posada behind the plate?

Wait a second, Jeff. In the article that you linked to, it specifically says that there are two different spitball pitches. One is what you said, wetting fingertips. But the other is actually placing saliva on the ball, which would be what Rivera is accused of doing here.

Yes, I did read the article I linked. I don't deny that some pitchers (and it was even the predominant way to throw it for a while) applied spit to the ball itself. What I said was:

You do not spit on the ball when you throw a spitball.

and

Nobody, and I mean nobody, threw a spitball the way this claims Rivera is doing it.

Now, Repoz's quote from Wright and Nadel (how did I miss that those two wrote a book?) suggests at some point there were a few guys who may have done something similar. So I'll alter my original statement slightly: Nobody, and I mean nobody, in the era of multiple angle TV coverage and instant replay, throws or threw a spitball by standing on the mound and spitting on the ####### ball while it's at waist-level. Nobody.

[16] OK, that was a half-ass cheap shot, but I figured it was in the same spirit as HH's investigative work. If albatross contracts really caused fans to go cuckoo, I feel for the family members of Blue Jays fans.

I don't think Rivera was spitting on the ball in that situation. I have no idea if he's ever scuffed or spit on a ball. But I think that if he did, he would be a lot craftier about it.

With that said I don't think your point stands up. Maybe if Rivera had the type of wild movement that Burnett gets on his pitches, maybe if he threw a collection of sinking curveballs and violent splitters. But he doesn't. I think it's pretty rare that a pitcher will ever want less movement: especially if they're in one of those situations where solid contact means that the game is probably lost.

The "loogy-on-the-side-of-the-ball" version seems like a pitch that anyone could throw, just like the scuffed or vaselined ball: it makes the pitches you already throw just a bit more biting.

Actually, a great ton of pitchers *can't* throw a scuffball. Not accurately enough for it to be a pitch they throw to a live hitter. There are dozens if not hundreds of quotes from pitchers saying they tried it (they all tried it), but the break is so severe that they would never dream of trying to corral it in-game. And since no two scuffs are going to be exactly alike, you can't just go from pure prior experience.

With that said I don't think your point stands up. Maybe if Rivera had the type of wild movement that Burnett gets on his pitches, maybe if he threw a collection of sinking curveballs and violent splitters. But he doesn't. I think it's pretty rare that a pitcher will ever want less movement: especially if they're in one of those situations where solid contact means that the game is probably lost.

One of those situations is such because there are men on base. Wild unpredictable movement, as pointed out upthread, is hell on catchers. Also, wild movement is going to get your ass caught.

...Mariano Rivera is able to throw only one pitch that has unpredictable, yet precise movement

Ah, so the reason Mo's cutter is so hard to hit is because it's the physical incarnation of an oxymoron!

No way! Halo's Heaven jumped the shark? Again? Really?

I know! I couldn't believe it either.

Maybe he'll post Rivera's address so we can all go protest this egregious transgression.

You're right Jeff. Pitchers can't cheat to make their pitches harder to hit, and even if they could they wouldn't want to anyway.

But I agree with your altered statement: no way Rivera is going to cheat by holding the ball two feet from his mouth and casually spitting onto it.

I don't subscribe to HH's editoral comments, but the video definitely raises a question, doesn't it? It doesn't strike me as satisfying to simply say "if Rivera were throwing a spitball, he'd be smarter about it." It's just as easy to say that Rivera is so damn talented that he's never had to throw a spitball before, and thus his alleged foray into the spitball realm is bound to be clumsier than a guy who has had to cheat since day 1.

My initial opinion of the video is that it shows a guy spitting on the ball. I'd love to see another angle to see if the spit actually hit it, but I don't know that you can simply dismiss that out of hand based on who's involved, be it the pitcher or the website accusing him.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Rivera threw a scuffball now and then (Mel Stottlemyre supposedly taught every pitcher he ever coached how to scuff), but this is nothing

Ah, so the reason Mo's cutter is so hard to hit is because it's the physical incarnation of an oxymoron!

This is meant in jest, but its the best damn description of Mariano's cutter that I've ever seen.

(Mel Stottlemyre supposedly taught every pitcher he ever coached how to scuff)

This is the first time I've ever seen it said that Mel taught anyone anything.

This is possibly a stupid question, but is a spitball generally consistent movement, or is it more like a knuckleball that varies pitch-to-pitch? I seem to remember stories that both Ford and Perry's went all over the place, which would seem to make it unlikely Rivera (who throws one pitch, one way and has for years) is thorwing one.

This is possibly a stupid question, but is a spitball generally consistent movement, or is it more like a knuckleball that varies pitch-to-pitch?

If I remember The Cheaters Guide to Baseball correctly, you can do it two ways: 1) have the spit underneath one of your fingers, which causes the ball to "slip" and move erratically, or 2) have the spit on the side of the ball away from your fingers, which disrupts the air movement and causes the ball to tilt in that direction.

This is the first time I've ever seen it said that Mel taught anyone anything.

That's gold, Jerry!

Either way, I would suspect that an inexperienced greaser trying to be subtle about the application would be unable to control specifically where on the ball and with what effect he loads it up.

Also, applying it from your lips two feet away seems... suboptimal.

As pointed out above, "that's a stupid way to do it" is not evidence that he didn't do it on its own.

It would have been nice if the video didn't end so abruptly.

This is the first time I've ever seen it said that Mel taught anyone anything.

After working with Doc Gooden's on his changeup...didn't Stottlemyre try to convert Jim Abbott to a righty?

This seems unlikely, though I guess you never know for sure. I was mightily unimpressed by the video.

Be interesting to watch a little further and see what this alleged spitter did once he threw it... though the fact that it wasn't included in the recording suggests that it was nothing special.

Rivera's wiggle in that inning is not as great as when El Duque came in for the White Sox and destroyed the Red Sox (bases loaded, none out) a few years ago in the playoffs, but it's damned impressive.

El Duque was incredible, but game situation has to mean something. El Duque was protecting a 1 run lead in the 6th. If he gives up a run the White Sox still have plenty of time to win.

If Rivera gave up anything, ballgame over.

As pointed out above, "that's a stupid way to do it" is not evidence that he didn't do it on its own.

It's not "evidence," of course, but it's a pretty decent argument.

This is dumber than dumb.

This is dumber than dumb.

And Halos Heaven has a new tagline.

"Back..and to the left. Back...and to the left."

And Halos Heaven has a new tagline.

New?

Some pitchers described a pitch in which saliva was placed on one side of the ball, which was then thrown conventionally. Such pitches would tend to break sideways, with the direction of break controlled by which side of the ball was modified. The same general approach works with a ball that was defaced in any way, either by adding any kind of foreign substance or by scuffing the ball's surface.

I dunno. He sure appears to spit directly onto the ball. And he has always had almost unnatural right to left, sharp, late
movement on his "cutter", that no other guy I've seen even approached.

Hmm.

So, we think after 13 years, and we have figured out Rivera's cutter? He spits on the ball, from three feet away, before every pitch?

And people buy this?


Be interesting to watch a little further and see what this alleged spitter did once he threw it... though the fact that it wasn't included in the recording suggests that it was nothing special.

The AB was during a bunt.

Deadspin has picked up your idiocy. Good job!

No. Just no.

For one, Mariano Rivera would not just suddenly start throwing the spitter.
For two, if he has been throwing the spitter, it would have been caught or at least suspected years ago: he's one of the most watched pitchers in the game, he's in the spotlight all but one of the last forever postseasons.. no way people would miss it
For three, if that was him going to a spitball, he is clearly incompetent and even Tim McCarver would have realized it.

So guess what: Mariano is clear.

And people buy this?

I actually watched 15 minutes of Kirk Cameron last night on the tube. If people will believe toxic mold and prostate cancer are proof of God's wrath and fury, then they'll believe Mo throws a spitter, I think.

Yeah, probably too good to be true that the Ol' Grim Reaper has been exposed as a spitballer.

Looks like the ALCS is taking a toll on some Angels fans.

Yes. Taking on the two beasts from the East is stressful! Some of us handle it better than others. I try not to post silly things, but I do kick my dog after every Angel LOB. Poor doggie.

Yes. Taking on the two beasts from the East is stressful! Some of us handle it better than others. I try not to post silly things, but I do kick my dog after every Angel LOB. Poor doggie.

RIP, doggie. There is no way that dog survived game 2. No way.

I'm on the horn with the SPCA right now...

He spits on the ball, from three feet away, before every pitch?

Of course, there are lots of ways to throw a "spitter", many of which don't even involve spit. I imagine Gaylord Perry could probably rattle off a couple of dozen just off the top of his head. So, that someone has not been caught spitting on the ball before now does not necessarily mean that he hasn't been throwing a spitter.

Not that I'm saying one way or the other; the video sure looks like he's spitting on the ball, but it's a big step from there to "so that's why his cutter is so good". I'm just, so to speak, spitballing.

Mind you, how awesome would it be if it turned out that he has been throwing the spitter for 20 years or whatever without anyone catching on? I'd put him in the Hall of Fame just for that. And I'm not even a Yankee fan.

and a few even licked the ball directly with their tongues

Giggidy giggidy goo!

Jason Rosenberg of It's About The Money fame: "Though I wonder if the spitter was used to bury the ball 2 feet in front of 3B."

So guess what: Mariano is clear.

Rivera's on steroids? What now?

You're right Jeff. Pitchers can't cheat to make their pitches harder to hit, and even if they could they wouldn't want to anyway.

I can't tell if it's intentional or not, but you're misreading what I said, again. Some pitchers can't, and as a result they won't/don't. Others don't/won't because it's cheating and that's wrong. Others because it's cheating and they might get caught and punished. Some pitchers do cheat, in my opinion many more than the public thinks and many less than are accused of it. All that said, my "altered statement" is the exact same as my original one that you nominated for "dumbest comment of the year", with the exception of allowing for a couple of possible guys a few decades ago.

a lot of the commenters on that Angels blog are taking it seriously.

Well, outside this site, most Angel fans are like most other fans -- mouth breathing morons.

Halofan being a special case on this site.

I don't subscribe to HH's editoral comments, but the video definitely raises a question, doesn't it?

If the question is, why did Craig decide to take stupid pill today, then yes, it does.

Well, outside this site, most Angel fans are like most other fans -- mouth breathing morons.

Only when I have a cold.

Well, outside this site, most Angel fans are like most other fans -- mouth breathing morons.

If the question is, why did Craig decide to take stupid pill today, then yes, it does.

George Carlin: "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

I noticed that yesterday that when Pettitte was pitching from the stretch he would put his glove in front of his mouth (with the ball in it) and appear to blow. I would assume that would raise more questions rather than Rivera spitting like he did. What are the rule on blowing on the baseball?

If you watch the highlights of Vlad's entire AB against Pettitte (The 1:48 version), you can see what I was talking about around the 1:07 mark.

So guess what: Mariano is clear.

Rivera's achieved the goal of every Scientologist? What now?

So guess what: Mariano is clear.

Why hasn't he been deposed in the Bonds case, then?