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Also, this is not conclusive of anything. To my eyes it looks like mariano is spitting to the ground but the angle is tricky.
If he did, he is the most incompetent cheater in the game.
Good bbref explanation of the spitball, for those unaware.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, threw a spitball the way this claims Rivera is doing it.
Wait a second, Jeff. In the article that you linked to, it specifically says that there are two different spitball pitches. One is what you said, wetting fingertips. But the other is actually placing saliva on the ball, which would be what Rivera is accused of doing here.
From Craig Wright & Eric Nadel's Baseball Past.
The second coming of the spitball had pitchers who were getting a huge break on the pitch, and rather than wetting their fingers, they focused on moistening a spot on the ball itself. Some were described as slobbering on the ball, and a few even licked the ball directly with their tongues.
I'm pretty sure this is the FOX feed, I don't think cutting off the video is indicative of anything.
I'd imagine that many MLB folks have fooled around with the spitter out of natural curiosity if nothing else, so I'd imagine they're generally hip to what it might do. If Rivera were using it, I'd imagine he'd have heard accusations from oppositing hitters/managers by now, which I don't think is the case.
On the other hand, it does look to me like he's spitting on the ball, not past it. But I have no dog in this hunt.
Primey for worst comment of the year!
#11 pointed it out. I mean, did you even look at the link? Or think about what you were saying?
The "hard knuckleball with lubed fingertips" pitch seems like something that would take an immense amount of practice, as well as constant deception, and I would hazard a guess that nobody really throws that today. The "loogy-on-the-side-of-the-ball" version seems like a pitch that anyone could throw, just like the scuffed or vaselined ball: it makes the pitches you already throw just a bit more biting. There are probably a hundred modern pitchers that have used this technique, but only in very rare situations, just like a hitter peaking back at the catcher's setup only a few times in a year.
Yes, I did read the article I linked. I don't deny that some pitchers (and it was even the predominant way to throw it for a while) applied spit to the ball itself. What I said was:
You do not spit on the ball when you throw a spitball.
and
Nobody, and I mean nobody, threw a spitball the way this claims Rivera is doing it.
Now, Repoz's quote from Wright and Nadel (how did I miss that those two wrote a book?) suggests at some point there were a few guys who may have done something similar. So I'll alter my original statement slightly: Nobody, and I mean nobody, in the era of multiple angle TV coverage and instant replay, throws or threw a spitball by standing on the mound and spitting on the ####### ball while it's at waist-level. Nobody.
With that said I don't think your point stands up. Maybe if Rivera had the type of wild movement that Burnett gets on his pitches, maybe if he threw a collection of sinking curveballs and violent splitters. But he doesn't. I think it's pretty rare that a pitcher will ever want less movement: especially if they're in one of those situations where solid contact means that the game is probably lost.
Actually, a great ton of pitchers *can't* throw a scuffball. Not accurately enough for it to be a pitch they throw to a live hitter. There are dozens if not hundreds of quotes from pitchers saying they tried it (they all tried it), but the break is so severe that they would never dream of trying to corral it in-game. And since no two scuffs are going to be exactly alike, you can't just go from pure prior experience.
One of those situations is such because there are men on base. Wild unpredictable movement, as pointed out upthread, is hell on catchers. Also, wild movement is going to get your ass caught.
I know! I couldn't believe it either.
Maybe he'll post Rivera's address so we can all go protest this egregious transgression.
But I agree with your altered statement: no way Rivera is going to cheat by holding the ball two feet from his mouth and casually spitting onto it.
My initial opinion of the video is that it shows a guy spitting on the ball. I'd love to see another angle to see if the spit actually hit it, but I don't know that you can simply dismiss that out of hand based on who's involved, be it the pitcher or the website accusing him.
This is meant in jest, but its the best damn description of Mariano's cutter that I've ever seen.
This is the first time I've ever seen it said that Mel taught anyone anything.
If I remember The Cheaters Guide to Baseball correctly, you can do it two ways: 1) have the spit underneath one of your fingers, which causes the ball to "slip" and move erratically, or 2) have the spit on the side of the ball away from your fingers, which disrupts the air movement and causes the ball to tilt in that direction.
That's gold, Jerry!
Also, applying it from your lips two feet away seems... suboptimal.
As pointed out above, "that's a stupid way to do it" is not evidence that he didn't do it on its own.
After working with Doc Gooden's on his changeup...didn't Stottlemyre try to convert Jim Abbott to a righty?
Be interesting to watch a little further and see what this alleged spitter did once he threw it... though the fact that it wasn't included in the recording suggests that it was nothing special.
If Rivera gave up anything, ballgame over.
It's not "evidence," of course, but it's a pretty decent argument.
This is dumber than dumb.
And Halos Heaven has a new tagline.
New?
I dunno. He sure appears to spit directly onto the ball. And he has always had almost unnatural right to left, sharp, late
movement on his "cutter", that no other guy I've seen even approached.
Hmm.
And people buy this?
Be interesting to watch a little further and see what this alleged spitter did once he threw it... though the fact that it wasn't included in the recording suggests that it was nothing special.
The AB was during a bunt.
For one, Mariano Rivera would not just suddenly start throwing the spitter.
For two, if he has been throwing the spitter, it would have been caught or at least suspected years ago: he's one of the most watched pitchers in the game, he's in the spotlight all but one of the last forever postseasons.. no way people would miss it
For three, if that was him going to a spitball, he is clearly incompetent and even Tim McCarver would have realized it.
So guess what: Mariano is clear.
I actually watched 15 minutes of Kirk Cameron last night on the tube. If people will believe toxic mold and prostate cancer are proof of God's wrath and fury, then they'll believe Mo throws a spitter, I think.
RIP, doggie. There is no way that dog survived game 2. No way.
I'm on the horn with the SPCA right now...
Of course, there are lots of ways to throw a "spitter", many of which don't even involve spit. I imagine Gaylord Perry could probably rattle off a couple of dozen just off the top of his head. So, that someone has not been caught spitting on the ball before now does not necessarily mean that he hasn't been throwing a spitter.
Not that I'm saying one way or the other; the video sure looks like he's spitting on the ball, but it's a big step from there to "so that's why his cutter is so good". I'm just, so to speak, spitballing.
Mind you, how awesome would it be if it turned out that he has been throwing the spitter for 20 years or whatever without anyone catching on? I'd put him in the Hall of Fame just for that. And I'm not even a Yankee fan.
Giggidy giggidy goo!
Rivera's on steroids? What now?
I can't tell if it's intentional or not, but you're misreading what I said, again. Some pitchers can't, and as a result they won't/don't. Others don't/won't because it's cheating and that's wrong. Others because it's cheating and they might get caught and punished. Some pitchers do cheat, in my opinion many more than the public thinks and many less than are accused of it. All that said, my "altered statement" is the exact same as my original one that you nominated for "dumbest comment of the year", with the exception of allowing for a couple of possible guys a few decades ago.
Well, outside this site, most Angel fans are like most other fans -- mouth breathing morons.
Halofan being a special case on this site.
If the question is, why did Craig decide to take stupid pill today, then yes, it does.
George Carlin: "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"
If you watch the highlights of Vlad's entire AB against Pettitte (The 1:48 version), you can see what I was talking about around the 1:07 mark.
Rivera's achieved the goal of every Scientologist? What now?
Why hasn't he been deposed in the Bonds case, then?
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