The Roger Maris Museum is located in a mall, right next to Grizzly’s Burgers…isn’t that enough!
When I was a young man, I swore I would not visit the Baseball Hall of Fame until Roger Maris was properly enshrined.
...Roger Maris is not in the Hall of Fame because he didn’t suck up to baseball writers during his chase of Babe Ruth. Period. Commissioner Ford Frick hated him for breaking Ruth’s record and baseball writers hated him for not being their buddy and not being Mickey Mantle or Babe Ruth. Every other excuse anyone gives for him not being in the Hall of Fame is fiction.
He was not a one-hit wonder. Maris was a Most Valuable Player the year before he broke Ruth’s record. He was a winner, playing in five World Series for the Yankees and two more for the Cardinals, winning three championships altogether. Injuries (and negligence by Yankee doctors trying to keep him in the lineup) cut short his career, so he didn’t rack up big career numbers. He was a Gold Glove outfielder. His batting average, .260, was low, but not too low for the Hall of Fame (four points higher than Harmon Killebrew, two points higher than Rabbit Maranville, two lower than Luis Aparacio, Gary Carter and Ozzie Smith, seven lower than Bench and Mike Schmidt.)
...But here’s a line that only a few have crossed: If your ghost and your record dominate a magical baseball summer decades after you retired and years after you died, you are not one of a few dozen baseball immortals. You are one of a few. Only Ruth and Lou Gehrig did that. And Maris. DiMaggio will do it if anyone ever comes close. No other record or player is so special.
Without such players, the Hall of Fame lacks credibility.
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Chief Wilson FTW!!11
Ok, it's only optional:
http://hatedyankees.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/ron-guidry-compares-well-to-three-hall-of-fame-dodger-pitchers/
Ah, the My Dad can Lick Your Little Brother argument.
All these players are in the Hall despite their batting averages, not because of them.
Rick Rhoden for the Hall! He only has a handful less wins than Ruth and hit more homers than Maddux, Pedro, and Clemens combined!
Seriously, Maris had 2 huge years and a few other very good seasons. 61's been honored by the Hall plenty - for a career award, he's woefully underqualified. If you're going to make the Hall essentially for two years, they better be some absolutely ridiculous seasons. They were just run-of-the-mill great seasons, not even truly the best in the league. His best OPS+ season ranks 393rd in baseball history.
I liked Brian Downing, but if you're a corner outfielder and Brian Downing hits like you for a 50% longer career, you're not a Hall of Famer.
If the idea is fame acknowledgement, and the guy is renowned as one of the few household names due to a core record for the sport, widely acknowledged as still standing, yea his absence is illogical. Too much emphasis on semi above average career stats grinded out over long careers as opposed to peak performance. And peak performance is where the real extraordinay achievement lies. There's lots of guys sporting a semi above average career ops up for the Hall who really weren't outstanding...Biggio for instance.
It's not nearly enough, Grizzly's is on the other side of the mall!
Just for kicks I had to see what actually surrounds the Roger Maris museum these days:
Spencer Gifts, a nail salon, Payless Shoes, a pet store, a place called Tip Top Tux and a Christian gift store.
Steinbrenner originally built it in a ship for his own personal use, but he has lost control of it in recent years and now it floats around randomly infected others.
You are saying that a lot, it's almost as if you believe you are persecuted by imaginary Yankee Persecution Complexes.
God, yet another whiner who threatens a shit strike if the HoF doesn't elect his particular pet player. We hear this bullshit about the McGwires, about the Blylevens, about the Marises, and about every case where the writer refuses to admit that there might be a reason that his hero isn't yet in there. It's not that they're always wrong about the player's Hallworthiness (though this guy surely is), it's the sheer arrogance of the line that's so pathetic---as if the Hall of Fame needs this schlump's certificate of approval to keep its doors open.
There was a time when Johnny Vander Meer got some votes for the HoF. The arguments for Maris would also justify Vander Meer. it would be fun maybe for the HoM some day to elect the Magical Moments or whatever. Then maybe.
Except "fame" in this regard means greatness, not celebrity. If that weren't the case, Jim Thorpe would be in the BHOF since he was more famous than a majority of inductees in Cooperstown.
Except Biggio's peak was as at least as good and his career numbers demolish Maris'.
If there's a reason why Bert Blyleven isn't in the Hall of Fame, it has to be a crappy reason.
Not just some. He peaked with 98 votes in 1971, and 29.8% in 1967. Don Larsen and Roy Face too.
Sure, and you can say that about Raines, Trammell, etc., too. But it doesn't mean that "the Hall of Fame lacks credibility" just because they're not in it. It's that tired cliche that I object to. You might as well say that your country "lacks credibility" because it elects a candidate whose views you find "irrational."
Sure it does. When the undeserving are honored at the expense of the deserving, it diminishes the prestige of the honor.
Sure it does. When the undeserving are honored at the expense of the deserving, it diminishes the prestige of the honor.
So I guess that if they elect a known juicer and leave out a non-juicer whose career would have looked better if he wasn't competing against juicers, the HoF "loses credibility" on that count? Or is it only you who gets to decide what's "deserving" or "undeserving"?
And how many subjective "mistakes" does the HoF get to make before you throw it to the lions? Will electing Mark McGwire suffice to get it off the hook, or does it have to kick out Jim Rice as well?
Well, it's only me who gets to decide if its credible to me. The question is at what point the HoF is incredible to how many people that it begins to become real.
The probable answer is never. The HoF has "mo" and we don't.
I think somebody has got to build a new HoX somewhere, maybe it's on the Rock and Roll HoF model, and spend a few billion dollars on glitzy events and publicity. Maybe then.
Actually I think it could be done but the question is whether the same people and the same money that could pull off the glitz wouldn't pick an even worse roster of players to honor. (I guess they would have to ask ME to help 'em out with that.)
not to mention positional adjustment..
seriously if this guy is arguing hof based upon how Maris compares batting average wise to Aparacio,Carter and Ozzie Smith, the guy is kinda missing the point of those inductions.
Ah, the My Dad can Lick Your Little Brother argument.
Well, batting average isn't exactly Maris's dad either... more of a "my little brother can hold his own with your paraplegic grandma."
Technically, I think this was the one James called the "once you lose it" argument.
- Went from 16-to-39-to-61 home runs.
- Dramatic improvement in power was immediately after Dianabol, the first widely available steroid, was introduced.
- Broke down physically, done as a full-timer by his 30th birthday.
- Flipped off the fans and generally became hostile to the point where the Yankees questioned his courage and the media turned against him.
- Died very early from cancer.
- Was never tested for steroid use.
Oh, wait . . .
However, Maris did get enshrined by the Baseball Reliquary this summer, and that's probably a good place for him--a place with a more "loose-limbed" view of baseball history. His big feat--100 HRs over two seasons--used to be a pretty rare occurrence, and might become so again in the future, now that we've had <u>two years in a row where the AL HR leader hit less than 40</u> in a season (can you imagine that??).
Maris was only the fourth guy to hit 100 HRs over two seasons when he did it, joining Ruth (who did it four times), Foxx, and Kiner. Many more have done so in the 1996-2007 time frame, so it doesn't seem like such a big deal as it once did.
If you are electing candidates that had a cultural impact in the world of baseball (which appears to be the Baseball Reliquary's prime directive), then Maris is indeed worthy of enshrinement.
Don't forget McGwire and Sosa.
really? only Gehrig and Ruth??? I'm pretty sure that we could add the name of Joe Jackson very easily to the list, even though he doesn't meet the obvious requirement of being a Yankee. Cobb? isn't on that list? Hornsby? Cy Young? wtf is up with this moron. Is this Ken Burns that thinks only the Yankees exist? I'm sorry growing up I didn't ####### know who Lou Gehrig was. On the pantheons of immortals Gehrig isn't at the top of the list. It was Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial(local flavor of course),Hornsby, Mays and Mantle, that was required knowledge for all boys by the time they turn 6 years old. (along with Young, Alexander, Johnson, Mathewson, Bob Gibson(local player and still active). Gehrig was a second tiered as far as legends go, outside of New York. (not saying he isn't an immortal, but it wasn't like his history was considered necessary for a baseball education in first grade-at least not until Cal Ripken came along--now I fully expect every kid born post 1985 to have a good education about Gehrig at early ages)
- Went from 16-to-39-to-61 home runs.
- Dramatic improvement in power was immediately after Dianabol, the first widely available steroid, was introduced.
- Broke down physically, done as a full-timer by his 30th birthday.
- Flipped off the fans and generally became hostile to the point where the Yankees questioned his courage and the media turned against him.
- Died very early from cancer.
- Was never tested for steroid use.
And don't forget that he was really born in Kenya.
By this logic, setting a record that is susceptible to being broken is better than setting one that's never challenged.
BS. Between being the greatest First Baseman ever, "Pride of the Yankees" playing over and over on TV, and having the disease the killed him named after him, Lou Gehrig was in no way second tier.
And don't forget that he was really born in Kenya.
Are all those facts not true? And if someone didn't know that I was talking about Maris (I could've said "quadrupled home run total in 2 years") would not that be considered a strong case for steroids by those so inclined to make accusations without actual evidence?
BS. Between being the greatest First Baseman ever, "Pride of the Yankees" playing over and over on TV, and having the disease the killed him named after him, Lou Gehrig was in no way second tier.
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for my baseball education, he wasn't the top ten taught to me, I wouldn't learn about Gehrig, Wagner and others until I was maybe 8 years old or so. They weren't top ten, so second tier may be the wrong word, but outside of New York I don't think he would be the first ten players you are telling your kids about unless you are pushing character stories over baseball success. (then you get Clemente, Jackie etc as part of the education instead of Ted Williams or others--my dad didn't care about character when relating ballplayers, they aren't heroes, just athletes playing the best game in the world.)
I don't think anyone would argue that they knew about Cobb, Ruth and Cy Young before Gehrig. Mays and Mantle seem to slip off the tongue together, being from St Louis means I got Hornsby, Gibson and Musial (say a Pittsburgh kid might get Clemente, Wagner and Traynor as part of their education) and my dad absolutely loved Pete Alexander. The point is that I just don't think that kids outside of New York were raised on stories about Lou Gehrig.
So you had a crappy baseball education.
oh for the love of morons everywhere.
you have a kid, name me the top ten players you teach him about. No ####### reason to insult my dad because you seem to think more of Gehrig than he did.
1. Cobb
2. Ruth
3. Young
4. Grover Cleveland Alexander
5. Musial
6. Mantle
7. Mays
8. Gibson
9. Williams
10. Hornsby.
you are teaching a 5 year old St Louis kid about sports and want him to learn some of the history, why in the heck would a relatively short career, second best player on his own team from New York in the inferior league be the first group of immortals you teach him?
The only qualification Maris had for the HOF is The Record, which was broken eleven years ago. And even that wasn't much of a reason. Just stop.
My 3rd-grade son's reading assignment in class a couple of weeks ago was a mini-biography of Lou Gehrig. I'm pretty sure that the only other baseball player that my son has learned about in school was Jackie Robinson. We live in Chicago.
Ignoring that lovely description of Gehrig, the top ten players to ask your kids about is a pretty fun question.
My list would be:
1) Ichiro!
2) Satchel Paige
3) Ted Williams
4) Ty Cobb
5) Jackie Robinson
6) Steve Dalkowski
7) Ed Cicotte/etc from Chicago
8) Dave Kingman
9) Barry Bonds
10) Greg Maddux
I'm probably missing someone obvious (Mays/Ruth/etc), but those are the ones that I think of first. Actually, I'd want Niekro/Wilhelm/Wakefield, too. Gehrig would be in there, probably ahead of Kingman. Ooh, I'd want Rickey! to be in there, too. But he'd certainly out of the top 10. I'd probably want a Blue Jay in there, but "Joe Carter, most overrated hitter who ever swung a ############# bat and played shitty defense" doesn't make for a good bedtime story. Halladay, I guess.
Ruth
Gehrig
Mantle
Mays
Williams
Cobb
Bonds
DiMaggio
Robinson
Wagner
And you call anyone else a moron? Suck my dick, asshole. There is a reason why "fanboy" is a pejorative around here, and you are it.
From the StL angle, Gibson and Musial are fine substitutes and Hornsby too.
But the Iron Horse didn't make the list? The guy with the record consecutive games played? The guy with the famous farewell speech and tragic end? The guy who's still the best 1B in history? The guy whose baseball movie was 10 times better than the Grover Cleveland Alexander Story?
I was born in 61 and Gehrig was very much held up as an ideal of what a boy could grow up to be -- great at what he did, a great person, stoic and humble in the face of tragedy. Those other guys were all examples of great players -- Gehrig, justifiably or not, stood alone as the baseball example of a great man.
And all these years later, his reputation still stands pretty much untarnished.
So, sorry, but I'm pretty sure your dad made a rather different choice than most other dads. Or, if you asked your dad, he'd probably tell you you just don't remember him telling you all about Gehrig.
and for great character stories, Gehrig is probably on the short list of great stories, Robinson is of course always going to be first, and I imagine that Clemente has some spot on that list. And I would rather have my school teaching my kids about good people instead of good players. As a kid what I learned about Cobb was not his big flaws, but his intensity on the field, I knew that Cobb spiked players and my dad compared him to Pete Rose among active players for that intensity, but the off field stuff, the racism etc were never a subject that was discussed. Ruth was taught as a larger than life figure, but also his two way play and how he changed the game. Mays and Mantle were said together so many times I'm not sure I could tell which player did what. My dads favorite team was the Browns, but there wasn't much he could teach me about them, except the '44 world series. Gibson was my dads favorite player, playing when I was a kid. And in St Louis you are weened on Musial. No kid should reach his fifth birthday without knowing about Stan the Man.
I never in my life have said that Maris should be in the Hall of Fame, so I'm not sure whom you're addressing that to.
And don't forget that he was really born in Kenya.
Are all those facts not true?
About as true as Obama's association with Jeremiah Wright. Just as true, and just as meaningless in terms of what you're trying to imply---even though of course you're not really so dumb as to believe your own implication. This is one of those "I'm just sayin'" moments, isn't it?
And if someone didn't know that I was talking about Maris (I could've said "quadrupled home run total in 2 years") would not that be considered a strong case for steroids by those so inclined to make accusations without actual evidence?
Perhaps, unless you told them that you were talking about the early 60's and not 30 or 40 years later. Believe it or not, not everyone makes the leap from "theoretically possible" to "even remotely likely." That's not a mindset that's generally associated with sane human beings.
But if you want to sit there speculating about whether or not Roger Maris took steroids**, feel free. Far be it for me to want to spoil your fun.
**("not that there's anything wrong with that," you're sure to add)
I believe that is not a serious comment, and I hope not to be talked out of that mindset. The world just seems saner that way.
I believe that is not a serious comment, and I hope not to be talked out of that mindset. The world just seems saner that way.
What's also kind of weird is the thought that in Gehrig's time, the American League was "inferior." The NL's stretch of superiority didn't start until around 1950, and didn't really settle in until the NL pulled seriously ahead in integration in the middle of that decade.
yes '26 World Series was why.
I don't think Gehrig ever made an impression on me, the speech had a stronger impression on me than Gehrig the ballplayer did as a kid. Heck even today Gehrig doesn't make that much of an impression on me. The consecutive games played is quite possibly one of the stupidest records of all time to get excited about.(again Gehrigs story isn't stupid, in fact knowing what I know now makes it somewhat impressive, but from a truly neutral fan point of view, playing everyday doesn't sound like that impressive of a record--considering that I've worked a job for 15 years and only once missed a day,--and 6years in the Marines prior to that without having a sick day-- it's just not that big of a deal)
Gehrig is a great ballplayer, but I just don't think of him as the upper, upper tiered of players all time and his record just doesn't impress me. It's not the homerun record, it's not the rbi record, heck it's not even an accomplishment record, it's showing up to work everyday record. Someone has to have that record, doesn't mean I think it's that impressive.
in 1975-1980 or so, which is the time frame of my education, is what I'm basing it upon. The NL was in my mind the better league, at five years old you don't think about it not always being the case. Nowadays I may know different, but to me, at the time, the NL was the better league and that meant it must have always been the better league, and it always will. I equated the Yankees World Series win with being the only good team in the league, they didn't have to deal with the Giants, Dodgers, Pirates and Reds like my team did.(the AL did have the Orioles also I guess)
Actually, Gehrig holds the AL single-season RBI record, too, with 3 of the top 6 RBI seasons of all-time. He's also 5th all-time in career RBIs, not bad for a "short career, second best player on his own team". He's also 4th in career OPS+ and top 100 all-time in career plate appearances despite the "short career".
again, he is a great player, and one that I think is necessary for a full education, but not the first ten players I think is necessary for a kid outside of New York with a quality hometeam needs to learn. Second ten? maybe(and that is what I meant by second tier, although that was obviously a misuse of the word)
2. Murray
3. Mussina
4. Brady Anderson
5. Markakis
6. Roberts
7. Orsulak
8. Brooks
9. Palmer
10. Frank Robinson
(Either that or
1. Wieters
2. Wieters
3. Wieters
4. Wieters
5. Wieters
6. Wieters
7. Wieters
8. Wieters
9. Wieters
10. Wieters)
We don't all live in your magical candyland where every other sport known to man had steroid use widespread in the 60s but baseball players didn't figure out about their existence until 1993.
Screw the streak. Gehrig has 5 seasons of 400 or more total bases; only one other player even has 3. He has the third-highest OPS of all time. He has two MVPs, neither of which came in his Triple Crown season. He led the AL in RBI 5 times, runs 4 times, homers 3 times, OBP 5 times... He didn't exactly just bring his lunchpail to work everyday. He brought his lunchpail and bludgeoned the other team over the head with it.
I assume the Maris/steroid thing was a gag, but this ain't.
Not to mention Gehrig had two upper upper tier nicknames. The Iron Horse is fantastic, but Biscuit Pants might be the best nickname of any top tier baseball player.
He'll always be Tanglefoot to me.
Yup.
We don't all live in your magical candyland where every other sport known to man had steroid use widespread in the 60s but baseball players didn't figure out about their existence until 1993.
Yeah, that's it, Dan. Have you checked your dental implants lately for any messages from Mars? Are we having fun yet?
Funny how Bouton never mentioned anything about steroids in Ball Four, in spite of his having no qualms about outing the widespread use of greenies. But then I guess that only shows that Bouton himself is a part of the Great Steroid Coverup.
And funny how the vogue for Rambo bodies on baseball players wasn't much in evidence in 1961. But maybe Bouton was also doctoring those photos as part of The Great Conspiracy!
Ruth
Robinson
Mays
Joe Jackson
Williams
Greenberg
Paige
Musial
Hornsby
Berra
Koufax
Reese
Snider
Drysdale
Mays
Mantle
Musial
Williams
Ruth
Can you guess what team he was a fan of, and when?
Anyway, ten players I'd tell my kids about:
Pedro
Edgar Martinez
Bonds
Piazza
Hershiser
Jim Edmonds
Clemens, the son of a #####
Randy Johnson
Guerrero
A-Zod
1. Ted Williams
2. Babe Ruth
3. Jackie Robinson
4. Satchel Paige
5. Josh Gibson
6. Ty Cobb
7. Honus Wagner
8. Roberto Clemente
9. Willie Mays
10. Bobby Grich
Yes, and Gehrig definitely was the winner in terms of who played him in the movies...
Gehrig--Gary Cooper
Cobb--Tommy Lee Jones
Stratton--Jimmy Stewart
Jackie Robinson--Jackie Robinson
Ruth--William Bendix
Alexander--Ronald Reagan
Joe Jackson--D.B. Sweeney, Ray Liotta
DiMaggio--Frank Converse, Gary Busey, Michael Nouri
Mantle--Thomas Jane
Maris--Barry Pepper
Eddie Cicotte--David Straithairn
Moonlight Graham--Burt Lancaster
and so on...
Eddie Gaedel
Pete Gray
Bill Veeck
Branch Rickey
Casey Stengel
Allan Roth
Jim Abbott
Monty Stratton
Jimmy Piersall
Minnie Minoso
Steve Dalkowski
Lefty O'Doul
Ike Boone
EDIT -
Ray Chapman
Buck Weaver
Mordecai Brown
Rube Waddell
But I digress. I can't really see leaving Gehrig out of such a list, and not just because he was my favorite player as a kid growing up in Chicago.
They don't necessarily have to have been widespread for individual players to have used. Since when do lynchers require actual proof?
But then again, you tout Bouton's personal opinion to the effectiveness of amphetamines as superior to the WADA and medical studies, so I think we can just safely assume it's a product of your typical fetishizing of 60s/70s players. If other players besides Tom House came forward about personal use and use of others, no doubt your position on steroids would magically change. Or, like in the case of House, you'd simply call them liars.
That's awesome.
I saw a story today about a father who loves the Yankees and tried to get his 8-yr-old Mets fan son to go to the parade with him. The kid was adamant about not going, and wound up staying with Grandma.
That father should have his kid taken away from him. Grandma can take him....
Where's Eichhorn?!?
They don't necessarily have to have been widespread for individual players to have used. Since when do lynchers require actual proof?
I'm getting a little confused here. Who, exactly, are these "lynchers"? You're the one throwing around mock innuendo, not me.
But then again, you tout Bouton's personal opinion to the effectiveness of amphetamines as superior to the WADA and medical studies, so I think we can just safely assume it's a product of your typical fetishizing of 60s/70s players. If other players besides Tom House came forward about personal use and use of others, no doubt your position on steroids would magically change. Or, like in the case of House, you'd simply call them liars.
First, you keep repeating this gibberish about a "fetish" I have for 60's/70's players without one shred of evidence for that---not that this surprises me, given the semi-hysterical tone of everything you've written on this thread. Most of what I've written about 60's players was about how inferior they were to our current crop, not that they were superior in any way---and with regard to the American League in the Maris era, I may well have labeled it a AAAA league. But maybe I just have a fetish for inferiority.
Second, perhaps you might produce those 60's steroid confessors, rather than just speculate about them.
And while you're at it, you might want to look at actual photos of Roger Maris and compare his body type to that of Bonds or McGwire, and see if you notice just a wee wittle bit of difference. I have no idea (seriously) what the point of all this out of the blue crap about Steroid Maris is, but it's getting weirder and weirder by the minute.
Jackie
Babe
Ol' Diz
The Dutchman
Moe Berg
Stan The Man
Dihigo
Gibson (Josh, not Kirk)
Cobb
Walter Johnson
They can learn about the ESPN era players from ESPN. They won't need anyone's help to learn about Ripken or Derek Jeter. Although I might make an exception for Rickey.
1. Ripken
2. Murray
3. Mussina
4. Brady Anderson
5. Markakis
6. Roberts
7. Orsulak
8. Brooks
9. Palmer
10. Frank Robinson
Very good picks, but you've gotta make an 11th spot for Stan The Man Unusual. If she can survive watching him fiddle and diddle through the last two innings of that second 1979 ALCS game, she'll be able to handle anything in life, even liberals.
Ten is quite difficult, and Dihigo was my "don't pretend to be cooler than you are" first or second alternate. I feel dirty that Berra's 11 rings beat out Keith Hernandez.
I don't know about cooler, but Dihigo was second only to the Babe in his combination of pitching and hitting skills. I'm amazed that there's no biography about him.
I don't know about cooler, but Dihigo was second only to the Babe in his combination of pitching and hitting skills.
I meant me. ;-)
No, there's no evidence linking AAS use to cancer; it is an urban legend started by the Lyle Alzado story. Also, the idea of AAS users breaking down or being injury prone is overblown. It may be somewhat true of bodybuilders, but not of athletes who use far lower dosages and do not focus exclusively on building copious amounts of muscle, instead focusing on the performance enhancing aspects it brings to training for their respective sports.
Yes.
In no order
Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Ichiro Suzuki
Sandy Koufax
Willie Mays
Lou Gehrig
Joe Morgan
Henry Aaron
Satchel Paige
Harry Wright
Except "fame" in this regard means greatness, not celebrity.
I don't think this is even definition 10 of the word "fame."
Rules for Election
It isn't just celebrity-hood.
Moreover, the rules formally exclude electing a player based on a one season achievement:
Although Maris might seem to fall under the "Kirby Puckett" folk exception, it should be noted that a) Maris's career wasn't as long as Kirby's; and b) he didn't quit while he was still generally as good as he ever was--granted, in Maris's case,that would have been hard unless he would have retired after 1961.
Which brings me to probably the only way he could have been elected: the Sandy Koufax/Dizzy Dean type exception. Had he not dragged his career out in mediocrity but instead quit right when it became apparent his injury/medical condition prevented him from playing to a level of sustained excellence (say after '63, or '64 at the latest), he might have slid in under this tacitly acknowledged exception. He fought its effects, he couldn't overcome it, he exited gracefully, leaving us with a fresher, purer, memory of his great years.
Can we not agree that this is stupid? A person's greatness is defined by whether some future person broke the record in a particularly compelling way? How do Maris and Aaron make Ruth any better? How does Jeter make Gehrig any better? And Maris finally becomes a HoFer only because of what Mark McGwire does? Please.
That is all that was said until the word "crappy' entered the debate, and that was correctomundo.
To understand why Ron Guidry should be a no-doubt Hall of Famer,
hit yourself in the ####### head with a hammer. If you already think he's a no-doubt Hall of Famer, hit yourself in the head with a hammer to clear up your symptoms.
Dizzy Dean
Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Honus Wagner
Hornsby for sure
DiMaggio
Gehrig and Foxx
The Big Train and Matty and Pete
Jimmy and Eddie Collins and Pie Traynor
Hubbell
One thing you would NOT learn about listening to the Game of the Week in those days was Jackie Robinson, btw.
We now have well over a hundred players that have tested positive for PEDs, surely enough to clearly debunk the "OMG JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURES!" test as completely infantile goofery.
econd, perhaps you might produce those 60's steroid confessors, rather than just speculate about them.
Respected former pitching coach and major leaguer Tom House, for one.
Until Canseco spoke out and there was serious investigation of the issue, there weren't exactly a bunch of 90's steroid confessors, either. Even now, most players are only confessing when they get caught, something that 60s and 70s don't have to worry about, with people like you pretending that steroids didn't exist until 1993 and pretending that drugs that have been banned for PED reasons in international competition are suddenly coffee.
If the steroid lynchers want to set the rules, then yes, by those rules, full of evidence-free accusations and kangaroo courts of public opinion, there is no reason to automatically assume that Maris, who had easy access to a a number of performance-enhancing drugs and had a career displaying many of the characteristics that the lynchers feel are "proof" of steroid use, was not a user of PEDs, including steroids. Sorry, once you bring out the torch, you don't get to complain about due process.
7. Orsulak
Joe Orsulak? The hell do you teach a kid about him?
And then there's the availability, knowledge factor. Even a sport like pro football took the 70's to undergo the metamorphosis caused by roids.
That the likelihood of Maris's record aided by roids is anywhere in the same ballpark as your typical 90's slugger's likelihood is just not possible. Yea, they used their greenies and what not, but it was the roids that evidently worked.
And if you have one shred of actual evidence that Roger Maris was taking steroids other than flights of fancy and guilt by association, why don't you present it? Has one contemporary of his ever come forth and said this? Has Tom House? No. Has Jim Bouton? No. Did the late Leonard Schecter? No.
And has Dan Szymborski himself? Well, no, because you don't have any, and you never will. But that doesn't stop you from "just sayin'". It's a perfect combination of laziness and character assassination.
I guess if I were you, and prone to pop psychology, I could toss up some variant of an Oedipus Complex, where you have to "kill" Roger Maris in order to consumate your worship of McGwire, Bonds & Co. with a Cooperstown marriage certificate.
Which is absurd, but no more absurd than your fantasies about fetishes for the 60's and Roger Maris's steroids. I'd love to hear you repeat this gibberish to members of Maris's family, and let you explain to them how you didn't really mean it. It would make for a fascinating dialogue.
like when the Steelers' d line gave up -10 yards on the ground in a 70's superbowl.
like a number over 70.
FWIW, I have zero doubt in my mind (and I think that same number is in the mind of any rational human being) about Maris and steroids. If this is up for debate in the thread.
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