According [to] Chacon, he was in the lunch room after batting practice when Cooper asked him to join him in his office.

“And I said, 'what do you want to speak to me about?'” Chacon said. “He said, ‘we just want to talk to you.’ I said, ‘anything you can say you can say to me right here. I don’t want to go to the office. He looked at me and I said there’s nothing for me to say to you guys.’ And I don’t think whatever they had to say to me they were going to make me happy. I didn’t want to get in a closed-room conversation. I just wanted to be left alone.

“I sat down to eat and Ed Wade came to me and very sternly said, ‘you need to come with me to the office.’ I said ‘for what?’ I said 'I don’t want to go to the office with you and Cooper.’ And I said ‘You can tell me whatever you got to tell me right here.’ He’s like, ‘oh, you want me to tell you right here?' And I said, ‘yeah.’ I’m not yelling. I’m calm.”

It deteriorated quickly afterward, according to Chacon.

When the manager, and then the general manager, ask you to come to their office, it's not a request. It's an order. You do it, whether you want to or not. If Chacon doesn't realize that, I'd hate to see how he's going to get along in the real world after he leaves baseball. Which could be any day now...

The only thing I know about Chacon's personality is that last year Ian Snell credited Chacon with being a calming mature influence. One can only imagine how close Snell must have come to pummeling Dave Littlefield over the last few years.

I can see being dumb, hostile, and insubordinate when you're 19 and making minimum wage doing a meaningless summer job (I've done it myself), but when you're 31 and making $2 million per year, it's a sign of a psychological problem and/or character issues.

If Chacon doesn't realize that, I'd hate to see how he's going to get along in the real world after he leaves baseball. Which could be any day now...

He's made 15M in his career, it's not like he's gonna be hassled about his TPS reports.

This is just awesome.

This is an odd account all around. He was being so calm while the other guy yelled like an idiot, then he suddenly just, you know, sort of grabbed his neck, threw him to the ground, and jumped on him?

Baseball needs more WWE-style action. After the choke-slam he should followed with a German suplex and then powerbombed him through the trainer's table...

This is an odd account all around. He was being so calm while the other guy yelled like an idiot, then he suddenly just, you know, sort of grabbed his neck, threw him to the ground, and jumped on him?

Some people have a long fuse attached to a big keg of explosive. It takes a lot to set them off, but once they go off, they go off for real.

How long until the Yankees pick him up?

This is sweet. I've long wished for another Sprewell style incident, it adds spice to the game. What about that story about Babe Ruth holding Miller Huggins out of a train window by his ankles?

I'm sure everybody will overreact to this though. Harper's a couple months ago had a great article about how showing respect to your "superiors" is for chumps. Maybe Chacon read it.

Baseball needs more WWE-style action. After the choke-slam he should followed with a German suplex and then powerbombed him through the trainer's table...

I think the situation called for something that made more of a statement. I'd go for hauling Wade up onto one of the dining room tables and delivering a tombstone on it.

The statement contained within that is "You and me are so on for a Last Man Standing match at Armageddon!"

Boy, I've wanted to do that to a few bosses of mine. Who hasn't? Unfortunately, I actually need to work to pay the rent, so it's out of the question.

I can't imagine how Chacon must feel right now. He's most likely finished as a major leaguer, and by his own doing, too.

Also, why the heck is Ed Wade swearing at his employees?

It seems that this tension was probably brewing for some time. I hope the Astros just release Chacon and let him try to catch on elsewhere.

If anyone deserved to get basically blackballed over something like this, it would be Chacon. It's one thing for a start to pull this crap, but a below average pitcher?

Piss-poor management is what you've got here.

They could have pulled Chacon aside when he wasn't around all his teammates, could have said come see me when you're finished eating, anything of the type. Instead, after obviously not handling the initial demotion in any kind of professional way, Cooper and Wade both treated Chacon like he was a third-grader or something.

Wade escalated a tense situation and should have gotten his ass beat down. You don't treat a grown man like a boy.

If this is the kind of crap any of you will take at your workplace, your balls have been clipped.

At my workplace, my boss has the good sense to steer clear of me after making a horsebleep decision.

"So at that point I lost my cool and I grabbed him by the neck"

Holy ####, Chacon is lucky he's not paying bail money right now. If you grab ANYONE (especially the GM!) by the neck in anger, you deserve to get blackballed from the game.

Any Yanks/Rox fans care to offer anecdotes about Chacon's temper? This is, as JoeHova said, Sprewell-like in its shockingly stupid violence. Has Chacon always been a hothead?

The irony is that, if past record is any indicator, Chacon is due for a good season in 2009. He's Mr. Every-Other-Year.

And forget Wade, Cooper almost certainly lost face with the team by bringing Wade into it after initially confronting Chacon.

If Lenny Randle didn't get suspended after putting his manager in the hospital, Chacon certainly doesn't deserve to have his career ended over this nonsense.

If this is the kind of crap any of you will take at your workplace, your balls have been clipped.

At my workplace, my boss has the good sense to steer clear of me after making a horsebleep decision.

I'm sorry, Alex, but that's a bunch of horsesh*t right there. You can handle yourself in a number of other ways short of throttling the General Manager in such a situation. I myself developed into something of a workplace legend (in a past life) for my ability to curse/criticize/heckle in such a colorful way that it felt like you were being clocked in the gob. Chacon could've done that. Heck, he could've just SHOVED Ed Wade, if he couldn't help himself. But CHOKING him? Done, done, done.

Wade escalated a tense situation and should have gotten his ass beat down. You don't treat a grown man like a boy.

If this is the kind of crap any of you will take at your workplace, your balls have been clipped.

At my workplace, my boss has the good sense to steer clear of me after making a horsebleep decision.

Ooh, a manly man.

I can see being dumb, hostile, and insubordinate when you're 19 and making minimum wage doing a meaningless summer job (I've done it myself)

Hey. That's me!

Some people have a long fuse attached to a big keg of explosive. It takes a lot to set them off, but once they go off, they go off for real.

Hey. That's me!

interesting - when wade was interviewed at first he denied that chacon had ased for a trade, then said that chacon had no right to ask for a trade, then finally admitted that chacon's agent had asked for a trade

this is interesting

Alex, what are you talking about? Lenny Randle was suspended, fined, and then traded while on suspension to the Mets later that season. I don't see how the Randle situation becomes any kind of a "defense" for what Chacon allegedly did here.

This really lowers Darin Erstad's Clubhouse Chemistry Percentages.

cooper is definitely not doing well as a clubhouse guy. to put it mildly. there is a lot of problems in the clubhouse and it is not exactly chacon's fault.

and i got this feeling that the pitchers do NOT like either cooper or the new pitching coach

chacon was furious because before he signed, he told the astros he would only sign here if he would start - and being replaced for runelvys freaking hernandez? fact is that wade, as usual, wanted more relievers...

and both cooper and wade calling out chacon in front of his teammates was a bad BAD idea. a BAD idea. if it did anything it would just unite the players against cooper even more

Also, Alex paints this as though he just knows Wade and Cooper were trying to make him look bad. Like he knows that baseball execs never ask a player to come to their office when teammates are around. Because players have so much alone time when they're at the park they should wait until then.

And I doubt Cooper lost any face for bringing Wade in. He asked Chacon to come meet them in his office, went back to his office and said "He's not coming." So Wade went to tell him to get his ass in there. It's not like Cooper went back and tattled that Chacon wasn't being nice. He had to tell Wade the guy wasn't coming to the meeting.

If anyone wants to know what Chacon's life would be like if he hadn't made $15M already, try getting together with Alex.

Of course, so far we only have Chacon's word that he remained "calm" before going berserk. Even if he wasn't shouting - he's admitted that he refused multiple orders to go to the manager's office. I know if I were "asked" to go to a supervisor's office, I would then get to meet the head of security to escort me out. If I jumped my boss and tried to choke him, I would get to meet somebody from the local police station half a block away.

I assume that Chacon's suspension is without pay - or isn't that allowed? His Astro career is obviously over, and he's going to have trouble getting more than a minimum contract - maybe with incentives - in the future. That's if a team wants him.

Here's a link to the Harper's piece -- Democracy and deference

BC follows the Astros closely and backs up my point -- they disrespected Chacon all the way around, and they lost face in this situation no matter what happens to him.

Hell, I'll admit that I have to bite my tongue at work, but the idea that you have to kiss the boss' round-eye because he pays you is fubar.

No wonder we've had Idiot Boy for Prez the past eight years, that we have a toady press and a lapdog oppo party.

If this is the kind of crap any of you will take at your workplace, your balls have been clipped.

Absolutely right. “I sat down to eat and Ed Wade came to me and very sternly said, ‘you need to come with me to the office.’ Really? Really? He should have told Ed Wade to #### himself. Wade can ask him to come to the office, and Chacon can refuse. If Ed Wade doesn't like it he can release Chacon. And that's before Wade starts screaming and swearing at Chacon.

That said, Chacon is lucky he wasn't arrested for battery.

His Astro career is obviously over, and he's going to have trouble getting more than a minimum contract - maybe with incentives - in the future. That's if a team wants him.

It all depends on how well he pitches.

rLr Has A Structured Settlement, Needs Cash Now Posted: June 25, 2008 at 11:05 PM (#2832899)

This is an odd account all around. He was being so calm while the other guy yelled like an idiot, then he suddenly just, you know, sort of grabbed his neck, threw him to the ground, and jumped on him?

Some people have a long fuse attached to a big keg of explosive. It takes a lot to set them off, but once they go off, they go off for real.

- yeh, that is my husband
i've seen him get angry twice. it is a freaking terrifying sight - my oldest brother has a bad temper and he gets upset/mad all the time and at the littlest thing, but even he knows bettern to get husband angry

- yeh, you wouldn't like him when he's angry
- no he doesn't turn green or leap tall buildings in a single bound

and justin T,

trust me on this, cooper doesn't have much face in that clubhouse, but trust me on this, him confronting chacon in front of the other guys was a bad BAD idea. and him running to get ed wade to help him out was an even worse idea.

the whole thing was seriously stupid. never make things WORSE when things are already bad.

i can't believe i'm saying this, but phil garner's strength was dealing with people and you best believe this would NEVER have happened. i never thought i'd be missing phil, but cooper is - for lack of a better word, a disaster

i bet just about anything there are a WHOLE lot of trades betwen now and the deadline. i had a bad feeling about the psychobilly cadillac that is this year's team

Wade escalated a tense situation and should have gotten his ass beat down. You don't treat a grown man like a boy.

Chacon created the tense situation by treating his superiors like chumps in front of the team. At that point I think Wade was itching (though clearly not able) to deliver a beat down to Chacon. Wade should have shown better self control, but Chacon's the one who initated a verbal confrontation and then escalated it into assault and battery. He's a dummy who put his career at risk.

Hell, I'll admit that I have to bite my tongue at work, but the idea that you have to kiss the boss' round-eye because he pays you is fubar.

No wonder we've had Idiot Boy for Prez the past eight years, that we have a toady press and a lapdog oppo party.

Being asked to your bosses office isn't kissing anything, it's part of your job. If you think differently then you must be self employed with a moron for a boss.

And if one of his staff members were to refuse to go to Obama's office when asked, I guarantee they'd be subject to a similar or worse stream of vitriol. You can't run an effective organization with subordinates who only meet with their boss when they feel like it. When someone writes you a (large) paycheck it's not kindergarten, it's not show when you please, it's to do a job, and meeting with your boss is part of it.

He's made 15M in his career, it's not like he's gonna be hassled about his TPS reports.

Yea, it's not he'd be the first dumb athlete to squander a fortune before.

What if your superiors are chumps?

There is good management and good managers, but giving respect to imbeciles only encourages them.

I've worked for the same big business for over five years now, and I do my job well. I'll go in the office if asked appropriately, but nobody's going to bark at me like Wade reportedly did, or show me up just to show who's boss. Basically, they leave me be and let me do what needs to be done.

Chacon may be history, but I bet you Cooper's lost that team, if not before this incident.

Wade, well there's a long string of idiot GMs of which he is one. As least Ricciardi's had the sense not to get a beat down.

It all depends on how well he pitches.

Well, since it's unlikely he pitches again this season, at least his first contract would be minimum.

And I'm amazed that anybody is defending Chacon here. It's not like it's an unreasonable request for your boss to tell you to come to a meeting. Chacon refused, and reading anything into what Chacon has admitted wasn't overly polite in doing so. He then was ordered to go to the meeting by his boss' boss, and again refused.

Fine, he was told he would be a starter when he came to the Astros. They made him one, and then he was terrible. Did he expect to get to continue being a starter, no matter how poorly he pitched? I can understand being disappointed - but it was his own performance that was to blame.

In any case - there is no excuse for the violence. Any yelling and swearing was because he had refused to behave as an adult, and accept that when he signed a very lucrative contract he had the obligation to pay attention to his bosses. I'm not sure in what world those defending Chacon are living, but it's not the real world, or even a world where people are responsible for their actions.

According to a scout, from a team Chacon previously pitched for, he was known around the league as a big pot head. I'm guessing that Chacon will never pitch in the majors again.

giving respect to imbeciles only encourages them.

Of course, failing to give respect to imbeciles only encourages them more. That's the problem with imbeciles: everything encourages them.

And giving genuine respect and treating someone with respect are different things.

According to a scout, from a team Chacon previously pitched for, he was known around the league as a big pot head. I'm guessing that Chacon will never pitch in the majors again.

Based on this incident, it would seem he's cut back. And too much.

I think it boils down to whether your management or not how you read this situation. And you don't have to be a manager to have that mindset. Your schoolteachers probably drilled it into you.

If the real world means getting on your knees, thank the good lord I don't live in it.

What if your superiors are chumps?

There is good management and good managers, but giving respect to imbeciles only encourages them.

Most organizations have multiple layers of managment. If you treat your boss like crap, your boss' boss will take note. Now your boss' boss may know that his underling (and your superior) is a numbskull and that your treatment is well-deserved. But it's far more likely that he'd take the opposite idea and side with the superior.

And so on... your boss' boss' boss may feel differently about the whole thing. And if you go sufficiently up the ladder, they don't know you or your boss at all, and just see it as an employee who just can't get along with managment.

I think you risk having a reputation that can hold you back in the long run by making the decision that "giving respect to imbeciles only encourages them." The odds say that one of the suits took a look and promoted that imbecile into this position.

akrasian,

you are not understanding here

you really are not. please try.

there is a REALLY bad environment already in the clubhouse. they managemenr told the media before chacon that chacon was going to the bullpen and being replaced by runelvys hernandez (maybe if it had been like an ace deluxe, it might could have been different) but you have to remember that before he signed, he told them he didn't want to be in the bullpen and he was turning down a lot more money to start.

he ALREADY felt betrayed

and then for cooper, who, to put it mildly, is having trouble, to come up to him in front of his teammates and call him out, then run off and get wade, who swears at him and screams IN FRONT OF ALL THE OTHER GUYS -

you got NO idea how bad this was. you got NO idea what a bad idea this was. the only way this might could turn out good is if the players unite against cooper like the 70s oakland As united against charlie finley


kevin,

cmon, you KNOW bettern that. you ben a boss and you KNOW bettern humiliating someone in front of his/her co-workers, ESPECIALLY if there is already a lot of workplace trouble. which there is in our clubouse

What if your superiors are chumps?

There is good management and good managers, but giving respect to imbeciles only encourages them.

It doesn't matter - when Chacon signed the contract he agreed to give them respect.

Look, anybody who has made the majors knows that one of the fundamental rules of sports is that you have to listen to your manager - whether you like him or not. It's not like Chacon is new to this. By this stage of his career if he hasn't learned that, then he's too stupid to continue being a major leaguer.

And guess what? Meetings with multiple bosses, brought about because you've complained to the press and demanded a trade, are going to be when it's convenient for the manager and GM - not when you choose. Obviously, the manager can't meet when he needs to be supervising things on the field. Wade has multiple duties, including conference calls on a daily basis with people in multiple time zones (at least, if he's like other GMs). If they want to meet with a player, it has to be around their other duties. It's not unreasonable to do it at their convenience, not Chacon's. And it's not disrespect to expect him to come to the meeting when told to do so.

-
Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims.

BTW, I didn't know what Wade looked like. I did a GIS:

That's him on the left.

I don't think there's a player in baseball who couldn't beat up that man. Well, maybe David Eckstein.

Wow, based on that pic, Chacon wouldn't have had to make contact with Wade in order to intimidate him.

Where's the disagreement? What's so confusing? Every person involved acted like an idiot/immmature child. Wade, Chacon and Cooper. Every one of them should be held accountable for their actions. Blackball Chacon? Sure. Flip side to that is there are now a whole lot of players thinking twice about signing with the Astros also. If I were to own the team, they'd ALL be gone tomorrow morning...

Disrespect with your mind, preserve your reputation with your actions. It's always the smart choice to behave calmly, because the way to gain influence is to have the respect of others. This is not to mention that calm allows for careful assessment of the situation, while aggression blinds and confuses.

(Under most circumstances, such as this one, which are far from life or death.)

That goes for Wade too, of course. But while I understand Chacon's point of view, his actions were quite foolish. That also goes for Wade too. I agree with Nutbag that they'd all be gone tomorrow if they were in my organization, though that's partly due to their respective track records. If it were Cashman and A-Rod, not so much. . .

BBC, I don't think you get it. I understand that Cooper is a terrible in-game tactician and feel sorry that he's your team's manager, and maybe he also isn't respected by the players. But it isn't accurate to say he "ran and got Wade." The meeting was to be with the three of them in the office. When Chacon said he wasn't going to go, what do you think Cooper should have done? Begged? Grabbed him by the ear and dragged him? Obviously he had to inform Wade that Chacon wasn't coming. It wasn't ever a Cooper-Chacon meeting, and then Cooper got on the phone and told Wade to come downstairs cuz Shawn was acting up.

Wow, based on that pic, Chacon wouldn't have had to make contact with Wade in order to intimidate him.

I already knew what Wade looks like, and Chacon is a big dude. That aspect is one of the many bizarre and unsavory elements of the situation.

BC, it doesn't matter if the environment is bad. Chacon's behavior is inexcusable.

When he signed a contract with the team, he gave up certain of his rights. That is the very nature of a contract.

And they let him start. He sucked. No athlete should feel that they have a right to their playing time, regardless of how they perform. By the time they make the majors, EVERY baseball player has seen countless players lose playing time for poor performance - for that matter, every player has benefitted by that. It is the nature of sporting competition. He started for half a season - and was not worthy of continuing that.

In any case, there is absolutely zero justification for resorting to violence in the situation that Chacon found himself. I'm not sure how you don't understand that. Frankly, it startles me that ANYBODY could defend Chacon in any way in this situation. I'm not saying that Wade was perfect - but Chacon crossed multiple boundaries that mature, ethical, human beings do not cross.

In baseball, there's a world of difference between taking a swing at your manager, who runs the team, and taking one at the GM, who decides who's on the team. At the point they had reached, there was really no reason for Wade and Cooper to talk to Chacon together. It would be really curious for Chacon to make up the profanity, while admitting that he initiated contact.

I think Chacon might survive this.

I'm not sure how you don't understand that.

She will explain it, I think.

I think Chacon might survive this.

Define "survive". The owner has already said (at the end of the article on top of the page) that he won't pitch for the Astros again.

Where's the disagreement? What's so confusing? Every person involved acted like an idiot/immmature child. Wade, Chacon and Cooper. Every one of them should be held accountable for their actions. Blackball Chacon? Sure. Flip side to that is there are now a whole lot of players thinking twice about signing with the Astros also. If I were to own the team, they'd ALL be gone tomorrow morning...

Can someone please explain what Cooper was supposed to have done that would have been acceptable? It sounds (from Chacon's own version) that he asked him to come to his office to meet with Wade. He didn't confront him in front of the whole team. Instead, he tried to take the exact opposite approach, by taking the meeting to a private location. Would screaming at Chacon right there have been the mature thing to do? Grabbing him by the neck as the poor mistreated Shawn did? I'm struggling to see what kind of approach to dealing with this a$$hole would have been seen as appropriate by his detractors here.

In baseball, there's a world of difference between taking a swing at your manager, who runs the team, and taking one at the GM, who decides who's on the team. At the point they had reached, there was really no reason for Wade and Cooper to talk to Chacon together.

Chacon had demanded a trade. That most definitely is something that involves both the manager and the GM. I'm not sure what would involve both of them MORE than that.

When Chacon had his agent deliver a trade demand, he had to expect to speak with both the manager and the GM. And as I pointed out, such a meeting was going to occur when both the GM's and the manager's schedule allowed.

Really, the people defending Chacon are treating him like he's so stupid that after years in the pros, he had no idea what to expect.

In baseball, there's a world of difference between taking a swing at your manager, who runs the team, and taking one at the GM, who decides who's on the team. At the point they had reached, there was really no reason for Wade and Cooper to talk to Chacon together. It would be really curious for Chacon to make up the profanity, while admitting that he initiated contact.

None of this makes any sense.

At the point they had reached, there was really no reason for Wade and Cooper to talk to Chacon together.

???

"The organization thinks it's best if we demote you/trade you/release you. Please pack up your stuff."

Chacon didn't want to go to that office for the same reason that pets don't want to get into the travel crate, knowing that the vet is on the other side. Because he knew that whatever was exchanged in the office wouldn't benefit him.

As least Ricciardi's had the sense not to get a beat down.

When I saw the headline "MLB player throws GM by neck" my guesss was the GM was Ricciardi.

Most organizations have multiple layers of management.

Daisy chain all the way up to the top.

Pass.

I think it boils down to whether your management or not how you read this situation. And you don't have to be a manager to have that mindset. Your schoolteachers probably drilled it into you.

If the real world means getting on your knees, thank the good lord I don't live in it.

If you agree to talk with your boss, you're just another fascist brainwashed by the system!

When I saw the headline "MLB player throws GM by neck" my guesss was the GM was Ricciardi.

What team is Shea Hillenbrand on now, and do they play Toronto?

juston t and akrasian,
let me try one more time

there is ALREADY a great deal of trouble in that clubhouse. to put it mildly. the manager has more than once, thrown one of his players to the media - which, by the way, in houston, the media doesn't like because they think a manager should stick up for his players like phil garner. this ain't LA/NY.

there might could be a VERY good reason that chacon does NOT want to talk privately with the manager - that he says to him - anything you have to say to me you can say in front of my teammates.

and that very good reason is that you have a manager who has no problem throwing a player under the bus to the media - who KNOWS what he has said to one player that some other player was supposed to have said

why do YOU think that chacon wanted witnesses to the conversation? why do YOU think that cooper wouldn't say what he had to say in front of the other guys, but wanted chacon to leave? chacon didn't refuse to talk, he refused to have no witnesses. and that is interesting, dontcha think?

and if it was about a trade, now WHY is it that wade isn't talking to the agent? what is cooper doing in this?

you HAVE to consider the circumstances. you DO. now if the manager had been phil garner, i would be thinking totally different about this

and yeah, ed wade is barely biggern eckstein. drayton likes subordinates who are a lot smallern him

TVerik Posted: June 26, 2008 at 12:51 AM (#2833035)

At the point they had reached, there was really no reason for Wade and Cooper to talk to Chacon together.


???

"The organization thinks it's best if we demote you/trade you/release you. Please pack up your stuff."

AND if this was true, the reason cooper couldn't tell chacon this to his face in front of the other guys AFTER chacon asked him to is?????????

I think Chacon might survive this.

Even before this season, Chacon was living on the fringes of MLB. He didn't sign until Spring Training had begun; it's not like teams were beating down his door.

He did have something of a rep as a jerk before this season, deserved or not.

I wouldn't call him Mr. Maturity; he made a start against the Brewers a few weeks back and the Brewers scored four runs in the first off him. Cooper came out to the mound, and Chacon was stomping around before (one of the umps had made a borderline call), and when Cooper tried to talk with him, Chacon turned his back to him.

He's too crappy of a pitcher for teams to put up with that stuff, frankly.

AND if this was true, the reason cooper couldn't tell chacon this to his face in front of the other guys AFTER chacon asked him to is?????????

I generally dislike climbing into people's heads, but I'll give it a shot this time:

Perhaps there was something physical in the office - "Here is the release paperwork. It needs your signature."

Perhaps there was another person involved. I have a friend who was laid off over the phone, and she knew it was coming when her boss conferenced in the HR person. Maybe they have some protocol to avoid lawsuits, or just a big security guard to show you out.

Perhaps Wade thought that this sort of thing should be held behind closed doors, and that Chacon was posturing. I don't know.

Maybe Wade just wanted to be sitting in his lucky "firin' chair".

I'd like to throw this out there as well, although I think it's kinda what BBC is touching on up there: As noted above, "when wade was interviewed at first he denied that chacon had ased for a trade, then said that chacon had no right to ask for a trade, then finally admitted that chacon's agent had asked for a trade". Is it not possible that Chacon wanted that meeting to occur publicly so that there would be no more "misunderstandings"? I don't know about any of you, but I had a similar problem with an employer once who liked to hold the meeting behind closed doors and then "misunderstand" (i.e. lie about) what really took place. It got to the point that any time there were issues for this employer with any employees, the employees would ask for objective 3rd parties to be present. Obviously, his tenure with the company from that point forward was very short. I am not defending anyone's actions, but there's a lot to this story that we all don't know, and may never know. Again, if one is, then all three should be done from baseball. Especially the two older getnlemen, who should know that it is their job as the "higher ups" to act accordingly.

BBC - yet again you defend Chacon, while ignoring that Chacon's actions constituted assault. How do you defend assault?

And guess what? Even if Chacon wanted anything to occur in front of everybody - when he signed a contract with the Astros, he gave up certain rights. Part of which were that he agreed to listen to his bosses, whether he agreed with them or not.

Now, if he decided he didn't want to honor the contract - that's fine. Don't come into the clubhouse, abandon the job and the pay that comes with it, and take the consequences.

You've yet to give any even vaguely adequate reasons to justify Chacon's behavior. This isn't kindergarten. Chacon is an experience pro, who has climbed through the various levels of amateur and professional sports to reach where he is now. He knows that he needs to listen to his manager, even if he doesn't like the manager. No professional baseball player hasn't had that drilled into him. And regardless of any poor people skills in other situations, the request just was not unreasonable: to come into the manager's office to discuss the trade demand with the manager and the GM. Frankly, it is insulting to Chacon's intelligence to say that he shouldn't have expected that to occur.

So Chacon refused multiple reasonable requests to meet privately with his bosses (and as bad as the clubhouse atmosphere might be, it would be made vastly worse by having a player dictate where meetings should occur). When the GM got upset, Chacon's reaction was assault. Please, give a defense of that. Frankly, I don't think it's possible.

Poster Nutbag - I must have missed it. Where is the justification for assault in your post?

I generally dislike climbing into people's heads...

Being John Malkovich is a favorite.

How do you defend assault?

Hire a good lawyer? (See post #43)

You've yet to give any even vaguely adequate reasons to justify Chacon's behavior. This isn't kindergarten. Chacon is an experience pro, who has climbed through the various levels of amateur and professional sports to reach where he is now. He knows that he needs to listen to his manager, even if he doesn't like the manager. No professional baseball player hasn't had that drilled into him. And regardless of any poor people skills in other situations, the request just was not unreasonable: to come into the manager's office to discuss the trade demand with the manager and the GM. Frankly, it is insulting to Chacon's intelligence to say that he shouldn't have expected that to occur.

My friend, does this alone not tell you that there may be more to this story than we know? Let's say, after toiling around for both extremes (Pit and NY), he knows exactly what's expected of him. That tells me that there is probably more to this story than we know. If he was getting what he asked for, like a trade, I'm sure it would have been handled differently. You see, it was probably painfully obvious that it was a bad situation all the way around to Chacon when his boss was flat out lying publicly about him. See, you can say they are all wrong without defending Chacon's physical actions. You can say you empathize with Chacon, and feel you understand his side, all without condoning the violence. Understanding and agreeing are two different things.

#68 - You know how some cats get. Some folks can't differentiate between "I'm taking part in this conversation, analyzing all angles and ideas, and could understand the frustration" and "Hell yeah!!! Violence rules!!! He should've grabbed him by the throat, slammed him down, picked him back up and thrown him out a window under a moving bus!!!"

Whether trade, suspension or release, anything "official" could have been handled through Chacon's agent. Based on what happened subsequently, it seems very likely that what Wade intended was a two-on-one ##### session, which Chacon has every right to turn down.

The reason why it's different to slug a GM than a manager is that the good of all 25 players depends on the manager's ability to get into someone's face when necessary, sometimes in front of everyone. That's literally never true of a GM.

The real Babe Adams had to deal with a similar question. From the Wikipedia article:

"His last game was on August 11, 1926; he was released days later after joining a group of players who requested that former manager and team vice president Fred Clarke, who had been openly criticizing manager Bill McKechnie, not be permitted to sit on the bench."

WAIT? WHOSE MUSIC....OHMYGOD LARRY DIERKER! BAR THE DOOR KATIE ITS A PIER SIX BRAWL! AND WADE GOES THROUGH THE DESK!

Of course the Astros should suspend Chacon - he didn't get the job done and put Wade out of commission. Now they'll have to pay again and find Izzy Alcantara to dragon kick Wade.

which Chacon has every right to turn down.

Provided he's willing to forego receiving payment for his basball services. Which, in a rather "clever" way, he has virtually guaranteed.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to beat the #### out of your boss. I just wrapped up three years with a firm where the Senior Partner needed a beating more than human being in this planet's history. Should he stumble into a pub where I am, he may get it yet. However, you don't touch people in the office, unless they physically threaten you. Ever.

According to a scout, from a team Chacon previously pitched for, he was known around the league as a big pot head. I'm guessing that Chacon will never pitch in the majors again.

Based on this incident, it would seem he's cut back. And too much.

I've seen angry pot-heads before. They get this glazed over empty look in their eyes.

�I�d totally hit you bro� I just don�t feel like getting up.�

Any Yanks/Rox fans care to offer anecdotes about Chacon's temper?

He was portrayed as a bit of a jerk in "Living on the Black". He basically showed up Torre on the field and was taken to task for it during a team meeting.

...the good of all 25 players depends on the manager's ability to get into someone's face when necessary, sometimes in front of everyone.

Cooper let Ed Wade do his fighting for him.

He's done.

The thing is - Chacon doesn't have the right to demand a trade. He has a right to request a trade. But in doing so, he HAD to expect to talk with his manager (in charge of the 25 man roster) and the GM (in charge of every player personnel transaction). The meeting was an inevitable result of Chacon's request.

If he felt that the situation was so bad that he couldn't meet with them, he shouldn't have been at the ballpark. He should have gone to them with his agent and asked for a meeting on it. He didn't. He spoke to the press. He had his agent contact the GM requesting/demanding a trade, and then showed up at the ballpark like nothing was going on, and then refused to go to a meeting on it. And then resorted to a crime.

Again - I'm not saying that Wade has handled things perfectly prior to this, or handled it perfectly that day. I will say that in jobs without guaranteed contracts, Chacon would have been met by security and escorted out, fired with cause prior to the assault. In baseball that's not possible, thanks to guaranteed contracts. Faced with an employee who couldn't be fired, and who was refusing to go to a meeting he had brought about himself, Wade handled it poorly. And then Chacon escalated it to a vastly different level.

What Wade should have done, instead of getting upset, was say "Shawn - since you refuse to come to the meeting to discuss your trade request like an adult - you're suspended without pay indefinitely. Clean out your locker and leave the premises within half an hour. When you're ready to honor your contract, have your agent contact me and all of us can talk."

But Wade not handling it correctly in no way excuses Chacon's behavior. And some posters here seem to be conflating "Wade and Cooper are less than ideal management types" with "any reaction to their management is therefore acceptable". Regardless of the flaws of Wade and Cooper, once Chacon spoke out to the press and had his agent request/demand a trade, it was appropriate for Wade and Cooper to meet with Chacon, and appropriate to do so in a manner and time convenient for them. And Chacon's refusal WAS a violation of the contract he signed. Oh, and violence could in no way be justified.

Cooper let Ed Wade do his fighting for him.

He's done.

But if Cooper had done what Wade did, wouldn't you just say that he deserved to be attacked, too?

I've seen angry pot-heads before. They get this glazed over empty look in their eyes.
�I�d totally hit you bro� I just don�t feel like getting up.�

Heh, and/or you won't give/sell them any more pot.

baseball chick:

i had a bad feeling about the psychobilly cadillac that is this year's team

I just wanted to give a shout out to a wonderful turn of the phrase. "Psychobilly cadillac"...that's a gem right there.

I just wanted to give a shout out to a wonderful turn of the phrase. "Psychobilly cadillac"...that's a gem right there.


At first I thought it was reference to the Reverend Horton Heat, but their song was "Psychobilly Freak Out".

The thing is - Chacon doesn't have the right to demand a trade. He has a right to request a trade. But in doing so, he HAD to expect to talk with his manager (in charge of the 25 man roster) and the GM (in charge of every player personnel transaction). The meeting was an inevitable result of Chacon's request.

If he felt that the situation was so bad that he couldn't meet with them, he shouldn't have been at the ballpark. He should have gone to them with his agent and asked for a meeting on it. He didn't. He spoke to the press. He had his agent contact the GM requesting/demanding a trade, and then showed up at the ballpark like nothing was going on, and then refused to go to a meeting on it. And then resorted to a crime.

The thing is - Were you there to witness the entire sequence of events? I'll save myself from having to type it again, but check posts 66 and 71 for me. I say there is more to this than we know. So this whole bit about the meeting being inevitable is true, however, judging by the actions of Wade, can you blame the guy for not wanting to be behind closed doors with him? He's already had no problem lying about you publicly this week about things you said, would you want to take that route once more? If anything, Chacon should've walked away without saying a word and contacted the MLBPA. As much as I loathe those bastards at times, he'd have had a strong case. His physical actions will never be justified, but perhaps he felt backed into a corner? You keep harping on this contract making him incapable of refusing a meeting. Ok then, but what's to be said of the "hostile work environment" he can claim due to his boss lying publicly about him and attempting to confrot him in a manner which he felt threatening (spare me rhetoric, you can be threatened non-physically as well).

The thing is - Were you there to witness the entire sequence of events?

The problem for many of us is that we don't agree with Chacon's actions based on his own description of the events. Wade isn't spinning this. Cooper isn't. This is Chacon's account, which would figure to be the most favorable to Chacon, and he still comes off rather poorly.

As I said, Poster Nutbag - if he felt the situation was that bad - he should have arranged a meeting with his agent and Wade. Other alternatives, if he AND his agent were so clueless that they didn't think anything would happen with a trade demand/request, he could have requested a meeting with a representative of the MLBPA and Wade. If cluelessness still prevailed until he was told to go to the meeting, he could have said that he would only meet with them if the Astros union rep was also present - that way there would be the local MLBPA figure present at the meeting, if he felt he was being set up. He had numerous options, and he failed to use any of them that would have been both legal and would have been within his contractual rights. His reaction instead was to refuse the meetings, and after Wade didn't react well to that, he then committed assault.

Obviously Chacon isn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree - but he has an agent getting 6 figures a year to represent him - and has a teammate who is supposedly representing his interests also. And yet, instead of going to them on how to react, he refuses a predictable meeting multiple times, and then commits assault.

Psychobilly Cadillac comes from a Johnny Cash song, ``One piece at a time.''

What Wade should have done, instead of getting upset, was say "Shawn - since you refuse to come to the meeting to discuss your trade request like an adult - you're suspended without pay indefinitely. Clean out your locker and leave the premises within half an hour. When you're ready to honor your contract, have your agent contact me and all of us can talk."

Then Wade would be in pretty serious trouble. GMs don't have the kind of authority to suspend a player without pay, and I would assume that both Wade and Chacon know that. Empty threats wouldn't solve this problem.

Even absent the pay question, what would have been Wade's next action if Chacon had still refused to cooperate?

This is Chacon's account, which would figure to be the most favorable to Chacon, and he still comes off rather poorly.

It comes off as an honest account. He doesn't need any defense. It is what it is.

Wade isn't spinning this.

Wade spins like a Whirlpool, and that was before Chacon got ahold of him.

What's silly about this whole incident is that Wade just wanted Chacon to straighten his cap on the mound.

But seriously, it's easy to view this incident as if it were TMZ-worthy -- something to be mocked rather than judged on a serious level -- but I'm trying to imagine how I'd view this if it had happened at my office, and I just can't bring myself to pump my fist because an employee gave his boss what was coming to him. A lot of people have wanted to choke-slam their boss before, but they vent that frustration verbally with their buddies after work, not physically with the boss himself.

Your sense of reality has to be pretty twisted if you can actually cross that line and feel justified in doing it.

#85 - Agreed 100%. I even mentioned it myself, about the MLBPA. Chacon is NOT at all in his rights to physically attack Wade. I am merely attempting to point out that there is going to be more to this than we will ever know. Regardless of who's account of what happened we are hearing. Bottom line, all three acted extremely unprofessionally, and should be held accountable for their actions. I don't mind one bit the chatter of Chacon being done for what he did. Fact of the matter remains that Wade is equally irresponsible and should be held accountable by the owner of the team. Wade should have an equal amount of trouble keeping/finding work in MLB after his actions as well. Especially considering, as noted above, his track record.

It comes off as an honest account. He doesn't need any defense. It is what it is.

Well, since the "honest" account justifies Chacon going to jail - and needing mental treatment, for behaving so irrationally, I'm not sure I buy it.

Chacon's account has him basically faultless - until he suddenly loses it totally, in a manner that is absolutely unforgivable. What part of that is likely?

I'm not saying it is impossible - but the only one we have heard from is Chacon - and his account still makes Chacon out as someone who should be facing charges. But realistically, usually these sort of descriptions in some way favor the person telling the story. I somehow expect that the truth is something along the line of Wade not totally springing verbal abuse out of nowhere.

Facing charges? Needing Mental treatment? WTF?

I am guessing akrasian has never been in a fight.

Ummm...Gambling Rent, you may not be a lawyer, but I am. And trust me, anyone who testified on the stand as Chacon did in that story would get brutalized in either a criminal or civil proceeding. Contrary to the Immutable Rules of Manliness, neither the common law nor constitutional law recognize any sort of realistic "fighting words" exception to the tort/crime of assault and battery anymore. Chacon is damn lucky he's a pro baseball player and not some random mook attacking somebody in a nightclub. He's an idiot, and he deserves whatever comes to him.

I'm as stubborn and nasty a guy as they come when we're talking about insults to my personal honor, but I sure as hell recognize that such pride doesn't justify CHOKING MY BOSS.

I'd like to throw this out there as well, although I think it's kinda what BBC is touching on up there: As noted above, "when wade was interviewed at first he denied that chacon had ased for a trade, then said that chacon had no right to ask for a trade, then finally admitted that chacon's agent had asked for a trade". Is it not possible that Chacon wanted that meeting to occur publicly so that there would be no more "misunderstandings"?

If Chacon got upset because the GM came out and said that he didn't request a trade, then he's an even bigger idiot than this account makes him out to be. By shutting up about the trade request Wade would actually improve the likelihood of being able to unload Chacon.

Once he publicly announces that Chacon is an immature malcontent that cares more about starting than helping his team win, Chacon's trade value would be driven even lower than it was before.

Chacon lost his cool. He admitted he lost his cool. Thats all.

If Wade decides he wants to press charges [i am guessing he won't cus he would have to give his side of the story] he can certainly do so, and at the most Chacon would get is community service. Course he is black so it may be more like five years, but he would do a few hours at the local YMCA thats it.

It was a fight, bottom line.

In the eyes of the court, how is what Chacon did any different than that Johnny Gomes tattooing to the back of Coco Crisps skull?

Its not, but you don't see anybody outside of Boston asking for charges to be pressed, or claiming he needs Mental treatment.

Fun fact: Chacon made 20 starts in 2006 and averaged less than five innings apiece in those appearances. That's a special brand of suck.

Didn't Chacon say that he had a better offer somewhere else to be a reliever? I doubt very much he is done pitching.

Those higher offers came before he choked his general manager and had to be separated from him by a teammate. I have a feeling that other GMs will act accordingly. (Imagine what might happen when some unlucky GM has to come to the cafeteria to tell Chacon he's being DFA'd. I have visions of Jim Bowden getting shivved...and I won't lie, it's pretty amusing.)

I have visions of Jim Bowden getting shivved...and I won't lie, it's pretty amusing.

Really? based upon ONE act of losing his cool?

This is not the first time there have been fights between teammates, or a manager and a teammate, and I doubt it is the first time a GM has been swung at by a player. Last year Barrett and Zambrano got into a pretty bloody scuffle, and Barrett, despite all his suckiness had no trouble finding work.

if Chacon can pitch effectively, somebody will give him a job. Unless of course he makes Selig's list. now thats different.

1. Chacon's actions are inexcusable.
2. Cooper and Wade handled the situation extremely poorly.

These two statements are not mutually exclusive. Carry on.

Remember this article from when Wade got fired in Philadelphia?

The article itself is at the bottom of this page.