Already upset about being demoted from the starting rotation to the bullpen, Astros pitcher Shawn Chacon was suspended indefinitely Wednesday night after a heated exchange with general manager Ed Wade turned violent an hour before the Astros played the Texas Rangers at Minute Maid Park.
Chacon, who realizes he might not play again this season, admitted he lost his cool and threw Wade to the ground after Wade insisted he go to manager Cecil Cooper’s office. The argument took place in the team’s dining room, which Chacon refused to leave when asked to report to Cooper.
Chacon said he lost his temper after Wade cursed at him and told him to “(expletive) look in the mirror.” Wade declined comment on the specifics.
...
“He started yelling and cussing,” Chacon said of Wade. “I’m sitting there and I said to him very calmly, ‘Ed, you need to stop yelling me. Then I stood up and said ‘you better stop yelling at me.’ I stood up. He continued and was basically yelling and stuff and was like, ‘You need to (expletive) look in the mirror.’ So at that point I lost my cool and I grabbed him by the neck and threw him to the ground. I jumped on top of him because at that point I wanted to beat his (butt). Words were exchanged.”
Players quickly intervened to separate Wade and Chacon, who remembers being pulled away by backup outfielder Reggie Abercrombie.
...
After the altercation, Chacon wonders if he’ll pitch again in the majors. Astros owner Drayton McLane is adamant that if he does, it won’t be for his team, and he told his players as much in a meeting shortly before they began their 3-2 loss to the Rangers Wednesday.
“We can’t have anarchy,” McLane said. “You can’t have rebellion. If he disagreed with what Cecil wanted him to do, he should have had the courage to sit down and talk to him.”
Geez, Chacon is stupid. Hasn’t he heard how Ed Wade usually takes good care of relievers financially?
NTNgod
Posted: June 26, 2008 at 01:20 AM |
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Chacon physically accosted a member of baseball's management establishnent.
All management understands that signing Chacon sends a message that in some sense this behavior will be tolerated.
There is now the perception that Chacon is something of a "whack job". Does anyone purposefully invite a crazy person into their "home"?
IF Chacon is to get a big league job he will have to work his way back. He's just not special enough to quickly land another gig.
Hey you're forgetting that Ecks' middle name is scrappy.
Re; Chacon. I think he's done. He might get a cup of coffee but he'll just be overlooked again and again by other players. Where is Hillenbrand now?
Also: re 95. Gomes vs. Crisp is different than Chacon vs. Wade in terms of assault, because one is a lot more defenseless and old compared to the aggressor.
Also, it's been a bad year to be a pitcher who was born in Alaska. Dave Williams ends up in Japan, Curt Schilling blows out his arm, and now this. Chad Bentz is on red alert in Bridgeport.
On the positive side, he'll have plenty of time to look in the f****** mirror now.
But I think comparisons to everyday ordinary jobs is off. Chacon knew that meeting might well hold the end of his career. If you knew you were about to be fired and unlikely to get another job and you had made enough money in your career to (theoretically) be set for life would you calculation that you shouldn't hit your boss be different than if you were 15 years into a 35 year career and living, more or less, paycheck to paycheck?
Most of us have good reasons - aside from having our balls clipped, of course - to not vent our frustrations in this manner. I'm not sure Chacon did.
It's interesting that McLane uses words like "anarchy" and "rebellion", though. Very interesting.
At my workplace, my boss has the good sense to steer clear of me after making a horsebleep decision.
Or what? You'll give him a dirty look? Scream at him? Kick him in the balls? Go home get your Glock them come back and mow down the whole office?
Is Alex a postal worker? If so, where? I'm sending out a package today and a bullet in the knee is the last thing I need.
It's like they say: the boss ain't always right, but he's always the boss.
I don't mean to defend him, just that I understand him. He deserves whatever punishment he's going to get, just as I would if I behaved stupidly. Also, it's not necessarily a bad thing to stand up to authority. Chacon picked the worst possible way to stick up for himself, though, if sticking up for himself is what he meant to do. It was a perfect opportunity for some Cool Hand Luke authority tweaking. Dammit Shawn! You blew it!
I picked it up, drove back to the office, got each of their paychecks up to that day, and drove back to the field. I found them lying by one of the machines shooting the breeze. As I came over each of them stood up looking all tough and I handed each of them their paychecks and told them to leave.
When one of them sneered, "Who is going to fix your f*cking machines *sshole?" I responded, "Me. And with my new wrench."
I had the local sheriff and some deputies with me so they escorted the gents back to the office and off the premises. Three of the four were back the next day asking for their jobs. I made them sweat for a week and then hired them back as new employees meaning they lost their service time, etc.
That week stunk as I worked non-stop as a mechanic/field foreman. But the other mechanic crews didn't object to all the extra overtime.
Didn't raise my hand. Didn't raise my voice.
But I never had an issue with anyone from that day forward.
It sounds like a big part of what really irked Chacon was that he'd just sat down to eat with his teammates. I think he would certainly have been within his rights to say, "Look, can this wait half an hour? I just sat down to eat."
Chacon was in a fair bit of demand this offseason - he only waited so long to sign because he was looking for an opportunity to start. Someone out there will use the Wade incident as leverage to get Chacon at a discount, and in a year or two it'll all be forgotten.
Also, it's not necessarily a bad thing to stand up to authority.
Sure, but you stand up to authority when there is a principle involved. There was no sensible principle involved in this. There was only a redass dumbfuck committing battery on a smaller and considerably older man. No matter what one thinks of Cooper or Wade, you don't do that and you can't excuse it.
If he wanted to go all Cool Hand Luke, he could've (for instance) said sweetly and reasonably, "Can it wait fifteen minutes, I'd like to finish up here," started some horseplay and "injured" himself, taped his ankle, and dared them to call him a liar. That's a punishment that fits the crime.
I don't think anyone's explicitly "defending" Chacon insofar as that means justifying his actions and/or absolving him of blame. They're just pointing out that Cooper and especially Wade handled the situation very, very poorly and unprofessionally.
That's certainly not how I'm reading many of the posts. There's a strong "they had it coming" vibe in there.
As for the professionality of Wade and Cooper, I'd say you'd've had to be there to know. But unless Wade hit Chacon first, Chacon committed battery.
Chacon deserves what's coming to him, which should be at least community service and anger management, along with a unpaid suspension, and Wade and Cooper should be fired. And Drayton should do some soul searching (though there is debate about its existence) about what he's doing wrong. Then hire Harvey.
Yeah, like an MLB team would ever hire some pimply-faced nerd from the blogosphere out of his mother's basement.
HW, that's a great story. I can imagine doing something very similar except I would have never thought of throwing this line out there. That's killer material.
I'm going to imagine that you had a beverage or two that evening once your adrenaline went back down.
That being said, of course Sprewell incidents should be met with the strongest possible sanctions.
What's interesting is that while I have a terrible temper it typically only comes forward in a personal situation. As in something to do with my family. In a professional setting I rarely lost control. Did I raise my voice at times? Sure. Did I give folks the "Look of Death" (my son's description)? Yes.
But never out of control. As soon as that happens you have lost.
I certainly don't dispute any of that.
Common sense says you can't do what he did, but face it, baseball players live in a different world. I predict he's done for this year, and nobody signs him out of a tacit show of respect to the Astros organization, but come spring training, somebody's going to give him a shot.
“Maybe it shouldn’t have happened,” Chacon said. “But when you do those things and you’re yelling at somebody and you’re cussing you better know what type of person you’re dealing with. If there’s any regret, I just wish they had just let me alone. I wish they had left me alone,” he told the Chronicle.
So much for an apology.
Too bad Ed Wade didn't have the foresight to invite Dave Chappelle to the meeting.
As for Chacon's future in baseball, that'll be interesting to follow. It's hard for me to see another team taking a chance on such a fungible role player (crummy starter, mediocre reliever). This might be a good gauge of just how much every team needs pitching.
The Astros owe Chacon, I think, something like a million dollars for the rest of his contract. I was wondering if there might be some contract language that would allow the Astros to void his contract (Chacon having a hand, both literal and figurative, in his being released), but surely a million or so is more than worth it to put this disaster in the rear-view mirror.
Yikes. He sounds like Bruce Banner!
Chacon might not even have to apologize. It's certainly within the realm of the possible that there's a GM out there who'll say "Choked Wade? Man, I can understand that. Suit up."
Well, he was by his own account very calm in the face of Wade's verbal histrionics. "Don't make me angry Ed. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. Plus, I'm not wearing my special stretch-waist pants."
Nah, if I knew that I was about to be let go and my boss insisted in being an enormous dick about it in front of my coworkers, I can't guarantee the same thing wouldn't happen.
And this sentiment...
It's like they say: the boss ain't always right, but he's always the boss.
is ludicrous. You can and should call out your boss's BS, that's well within your rights, you are not his (or her) slave. If he (or she) wants to fire you for it, well, that's well within their rights.
IF they were yelling and swearing one-sidedly (my odds on the truthiness of this description is 100:1), then you declare, "I don't have to take this ####." or "FU" or whatever appeals to you and leave.
Of course, giving respect to arrogant ######## only encourages them, too.
Just saying.
he had benched. Randle was found guilty of assault and Lucchesi later sued for $200,000, blaming Randle
for the loss of his job. The case was settled.
Randle later played for Mets, Yankees, Cubs and Mariners.
Of course Lenny never hit a general manager or any other suit-wearing club executive, we will find out if there is a difference.
First, why would the meeting have ended his career? At best, he'd be given a chance to rethink his demand for a trade and head to the bullpen. At worst, he'd be released and most likely signed by another team.
Second,I don't think being set for life is a justification for hitting people.
Also, a private office is a perfectly good setting to lose control in, if you want the option to go down that route.
Indeed. If only Chacon had been fairly compensated, this sort of thing could never happen, but what can you expect from a man under such pressure to keep his family fed?
If a woman does not want to be assaulted by her man, treating him right would go a long way to ensuring that kind of thing does not happen.
Doesn't sound quite right, does it?
My take
(1) I don't approve of Chacon hitting Wade.
(2) Based on everything I've read about Wade, I'm glad he got hit (or choked, or whatever).
144: See #146.
145: Yes, that's two reasons why it was wholly irrational for Wade to treat Chacon as he did. He verbally abused someone who who could defend himself if not 'snap' and survive if not thrive financially.
2) Wade was at fault when he started shouting at Chacon
3) Chacon was again at fault when he hit Wade.
4) It's important to learn how to not screw up your life just because somebody else is being a jerk in a stressful situation.
So if he had abused someone who couldn't defend himself, it would be "rational"?
Geez, listen to yourselves once in awhile. What a bunch of internet tough guys. There is something called decorum and something called morals and something called self-control in real life, you know.
I'll dumb it down. Chacon.
Who, by the way, had a job, a fat paycheck and is a member of a union. You went 0-3.
That youngster weighs 140 lbs soaking wet and I guarantee he would have dropped Chacon like a sack of potatoes.
The Astros were pre-ordained to suck this year. I wouldn't blame it all on Coop.
Second,I don't think being set for life is a justification for hitting people.
Wasn't saying he was justified. Why is it saying you understand someone's actions is so often taken as saying you condone them, or think them justified?
DFA.
Without talking to him first? The problem with that is they're then stuck eating the rest of his $2 million salary. It's not a huge amount, but they'd lose all leverage in trying to trade him and have no chance of talking him into taking a bullpen role.
To go down and suggest that Chacon join Cooper and him in the office. I would have to be there to understand exactly what to do about the lunch being eaten.
If Chacon refuses, tell him that he needs to come to the office with you.
If he still refuses, reiterate the urgency.
If he still refuses, tell him that he must vacate the premises.
If he still refuses, inform him that you have no choice but to call security.
If he still refuses, call security.
All this in measured tones, of course. And at the lowest possible volume for Chacon to hear.
C. Montgomery McLane gives a nice overstatement, doesn't he?
“We can’t have anarchy,” McLane said. “You can’t have rebellion."
Hell, that makes me want to give him a job right now.
C'mon Danny, what would Beane do? He did this with Milton Bradley and actually pulled Andrew Brown out of the mess!
This has come up on race, political and even PED threads here, both directly and obliquely. I assume the answer is that if you say you understand it, you are offering a mitigated moral/ethical judgment, since moral judgments are often framed by "I don't understand how anyone could do that, unless that individual is evil/crazy."
Thanks professor.
I can't fault you if you decide that you'd try to talk to him first, but I don't think I'd do that as the GM, myself. Talking to the players is the manager's job, not the GM's job. If the player refuses to meet with the manager, then it's time to try something else. He is a mediocre pitcher at best; he is not worth any trouble, no matter his salary. What else is there to do? He's a grown man, so you can't call his mom or send him to bed without dessert. So get rid of him. Hopefully that would send a message to the rest of the team not to act like Chacon did.
-Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #33
is ludicrous. You can and should call out your boss's BS, that's well within your rights, you are not his (or her) slave. If he (or she) wants to fire you for it, well, that's well within their rights.
Well, gee, that's all it means, they have power over you. That's not ludicrous. Rolling over on every last thing is not implied. But going to the office with him is pretty stupid thing to call BS on. You call BS on him wanting you to throw a backdoor curve on two and oh, or on running from the dugout to the mound in ninety-degree heat.
That youngster weighs 140 lbs soaking wet and I guarantee he would have dropped Chacon like a sack of potatoes.
It's probably just my ignorance talking here, but I am skeptical that any amount of tae kwon do makes up for fifty solid pounds. He'd have to hit him a lot more than he got hit. And note that you're talking about a "youngster," not a guy on the steep wrong side of a twenty-year difference in age.
You killed that one in a hurry, Shooty.
But Bradley's a lot better than Chacon.
And I don't think I ever heard the full story on the Bradley DFA. I know he blew up at Beane after he was told about the DFA, but was there an altercation before the DFA?
So, the fact that Chacon is rich and represented by a union makes him more likely to defend himself against abusive behavior if not snap, not less likely.
And you missed the boat.
1) amoral /= immoral
2) You know #### about philosophy and probably are not very good at life.
Obviously the second Chacon initiates physical contact with Wade, he's wrong....no matter what Wade said or did. It's just the way the world is. Wade probably is one of the biggest jerks in the game to act the way he does. But you still can't hit him or choke him or wrestle him or any of that. As hard as it is to do.....you just have to walk away in that situation.
That said...I think Wade should be fired if Chacon's account is even 50% accurate. If I were the owner, I would conduct an internal investigation, and if I found out that my General Manager was verbally abusing one of my players in the manner described by Chacon...(again...no other accounts...so I don't know) I just would not want this guy representing me or my organization.
BOTH Chacon and Wade should be fired.
Yep. I Michael Kay-ed that sucker didn't I?
And I don't think I ever heard the full story on the Bradley DFA. I know he blew up at Beane after he was told about the DFA, but was there an altercation before the DFA?
All the more reason to just DFA Chacon and make sure the team knows Coop is the man. I understand your point, though. I'm not sure what the whole story is about the Bradley DFA. I imagine we never will. I sure wish we had Bradley right now instead of Emil Brown.
Naw. Pettite isn't there any more to cut his meat and take the crust off the bread.
I think Wade should be fired because he is a bad GM. But his behavior, even in Chacon's version, does not warrant firing.
By Chacon's own admission he was already insubordinate at the beginning of the incident by refusing the meeting with Cooper and Wade. At that point there are many options including trying to reason with him or immediate DFA, etc. It's not unreasonable for a GM to choose what Wade did, which was to chew him out, to restore a modicum of order and discipline in the clubhouse. It's not an ideal solution. But it's a very common solution. Chacon chose (against orders) to remain in the view of his teammates. Whatever loss of face he suffered was due to him and not Wade. A GM has to operate on the assumption that he's dealing with civilized human beings. Unfortunately for Wade, Chacon chose not to be one. This particular incident doesn't reflect much of Wade's competency or character in either direction.
And again, as several of us have asked, what should Cooper have done differently? What course of action could he have taken that would have been acceptable?
Given Chacon a happy ending?
Option J, naturally.
bbchick has been using a lot of bandwidth letting us know that cooper and wade are nincompoops. so they get some blame for creating a lousy situation in the clubhouse. from her point of view, this is some of the chickens coming home to roost.
but ultimately i think chacon was in the wrong for laying hands on wade. he lost control. and his later statement doesn't help him much. he just wanted to be 'left alone'? wtf?
Geez, when did baseball get so touchy-feely that verbally abusing a player is now shocking.
And no choking, either. Well, actually there is plenty of choking. See, e.g., ALCS 2004. But otherwise, the point stands.
Ya wanna happy ending? I got yer happy ending right here! (Grabbing at you-know-what.)
Or did you mean something different? :) Is "happy ending" a reference to a movie that I don't know about?
I don't see how EITHER one of these guys can be excused for their behavior.
I don't know what magic job you have where your boss is afraid to come near you after 'he/she makes a bad decision', but all things do end. Your life should be a lot of fun when it does.
You fail at posting.
Chacon is well compensated and belongs to a powerful union. And yet, Wade still "abused" him. Do you even understand your own argument here? You're saying rich, unionized ballplayers are less likely to be abused (without defining abuse), but more likely to assault management when they are. You've shown zero evidence for the first point, and assaults on management have been virtually non-existent since ballplayers became rich and and the union became powerful, but were far more common in the bad old days.
Even if every word of Chacon's story is true and Wade was an out of control ass, Chacon's actions were still inexcusable. A more proper response in that situation is to say, "I don't need to take this ****. Go **** yourself." Then walk away.
There is no excsuse for what Chacon did, but Wade handled himself ineptly and foolishly--if the account of his behavior is accurate.
"I sat down to eat, and Ed Wade came to me and very sternly said, 'You need to come with me to the office.' I said, 'For what? I don't want to go to the office with you and Cooper.' And I said, 'You can tell me whatever you've got to tell me right here.' He's like, 'Oh, you want me to tell you right here?' And I said, 'Yeah.' I'm not yelling. I'm calm."
Two points here.
1. According to Chacon's own time line, he sat down to eat after refusing to visit with Cooper. Now perhaps he had his lunch tray in hand but the story doesn't read that way.
2. It would be completely and totally irresponsible for a manager to discuss an employee's issues in a public setting. You must pull the employee into a private session, both for the sake of the company and on general human principles. As the manager, you must act the adult in the situation.
If Wade engaged in abusive yelling, he should at least be put on some kind of probation or fired, depending on circumstances. Telling an employee to "[forget]ting look in the mirror" in a loud voice in this circumstance would not be fireable in and of itself, IMO, but pretty much anything beyond that is pushing it.
For sure...I just doubt a 140# guy could deck Shawn Chacon without taking him totally by surprise, no matter how good.
Boy, do we need some more topics to comment on, eh?
It's not a punishment, it's a statement. As I said before, these guys are adults. I think punishment for bad behavior is for juveniles.
The statement is, "If you are insubordinate to your boss and can't get along with other people, then we'll have you out of this clubhouse in a hurry." If you don't make this statement, then you undermine the manager's authority by displaying to the team that childish behavior will be tolerated.
I take it you've never seen Royce Gracie fight. Okay, granted, not TKD.
Just to disabuse you (as well as the millions of potential clients who are reading this and think otherwise, so they'll stop calling and asking me about it): there is nothing illegal about a "hostile work environment." Bosses can be hostile. They can be mean, nasty, and abusive. (They can't commit battery, and neither can employees, which is why Mr. Chacon is going to be hanging out at Derek Bell's house very shortly waiting for the phone to ring.) They can't create a "hostile work environment" based on membership in a protected class, but it is a complete defense to a discrimination charge that one mistreats all one's employees.
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