didn't bill james say that if he had played in almost any other park he'd have been a borderline hall of famer?

52.3 Wins above replacement. 151st through the 2008 season. But none for the Astros since 1987, so I don't think he, or anyone on the Astros is entitled to lifetime employment. Up to and including McLane.

If the New York Yankees can fire Yogi Berra, which they have done, then why can’t McLane move Cruz into another position?

Berra didn't show up at Yankee Stadium for 15 years after that. Bad example.

His job consisted of patting Lance Berkman on the ass and showing the pitchers where second base was located on those rare occasions when they reached first base.

Davey Lopes has raised the bar for first-base coaches, hasn't he? If this is all Cruz was doing, maybe he deserved to be fired.

What was the last team to send players out to coach on the baselines? Can anyone except Harveys remember seeing it done?

And, a related question, who was the last manager to coach – routinely, or even once – at third base? I seem to remember Lasorda doing it, or Herzog, or someone of that generation, at least occasionally. Durocher liked to coach at 3B, but I can't remember him doing it with the Cubs or Astros, which was when I started following baseball.

didn't bill james say that if he had played in almost any other park he'd have been a borderline hall of famer?

From NBJHBA..."In his career Cruz lost about 47 home runs to the Astrodome, and probably lost at least ten point off his average."

165 HR's to 212
.284 to .294

120 OPS+ in 2353 games. He had 1400 games in left, 500 in right, 280 in center.

Through age 37, he'd played 2048 games and had a 123 OPS+, still mostly as a left fielder but with a higher percentage of games as a right or center fielder. He stole 300+ bases at a pretty decent rate (especially given the offensive context) that OPS+ probably understates his value a fair bit.

I think he probably belongs in about the same Hall of Fame that Jim Rice belongs in, give or take. That probably makes him "Hall of Very Good" by the general standards of BBTF, but BBTF would probably give him more credit than the average non-BBTF baseball fan without needing him to superficially "improve" his performance by playing in a different park.

And, a related question, who was the last manager to coach – routinely, or even once – at third base?

Dale Sveum was a longtime third base coach when he took the Brewers to the playoffs as the Yost fill-in last year. He might get another gig next year.

Gene Lamont has been both a manager and is back to being a third-base coach, where he has spent plenty of time.

Dale Sveum was a longtime third base coach when he took the Brewers to the playoffs as the Yost fill-in last year. He might get another gig next year.

Gene Lamont has been both a manager and is back to being a third-base coach, where he has spent plenty of time.

That's not what he's asking. He's asking who was the last manager to coach 3B, while he was the manager?

One of the arguments that occasionally got trotted out for Jim Rice was the arbitrary endpoint argument: from 1975-1986, Jim Rice was the best/most TEH FEARed/whatever in either MLB or AL. Putting aside Schmidt and Brett (for two), here's what Jose Cruz did during that time period:

Cruz: 1744 games, 112 OBP+, 114 SLG+
Rice: 1766 games, 106 OBP+, 128 SLG+

Put in a neutral context for those years, we have:

Cruz: .316 AVG, .385 OBP, .463 SLG
Rice: .295 AVG, .347 OBP, .505 SLG

In addition, during that time period, Cruz stole 284 SBs at a 70% success rate and played about 400 games in right field while Rice spent about 300 games as a DH.

I think, election-wise, Cruz would have been helped by playing in a better park for hitters (of course), but I do not think he would have come close to getting voted in. Dwight Evans was better than Cruz, played in a good offensive park, and still didn't come close to getting voted in. I think the nature of Cruz's contributions (more table-setting, like Evans, Raines, and others, than slugging) rarely grabs voters' collective attention the way Rice's sorts of contributions do.

Still, a .316 AVG would tend to grab voters' attention, I think. Evans and Raines don't have that for them. Again, I don't think Cruz would have gotten voted in, but he'd almost certainly have gotten more attention than he actually got.

SoSH, I think Bob was asking who was the last to manage and coach third at the same time. I don't know, but retrosheet has coach info. BTW, why do Bob, you, and I frequently post in the same threads?

Yes, that's what I was asking: who last managed from the 3B box.

The proliferation of coaches is interesting. Nobody needs a dedicated 1B coach, maybe not even a dedicated 3B coach. Omar Vizquel is making a hefty salary – why not have him stand out there on days when he's not playing, or even innings when he's not up? In effect, a 1B coach is just a kind of pensioner (he might of course do other valuable stuff, like work with hitters, but there are coaches for that too). And the only thing you can really do with a pensioner is let him go unceremoniously. Baseline coaches exist so that they can make sad exits from the majors in the next staff purge.

Edit: no theory on the SoSH/GGC/BDC conjunction :)

I seem to remember Lasorda doing it, or Herzog, or someone of that generation, at least occasionally.

Lasorda used to do it sometimes. He was quite . . . animated. I didn't see the actual incident, but I do remember seeing an interview with him in which he claimed to have accidentally done a bellyflop at one point in 1988 (I think this was from the 1988 World Series video my dad bought) when trying to get someone to slide at third.

I seriously doubt Cruz had no other coaching duties.

I want to say Piniella used to do it, but I may just be thinking of Naked Gun.

I think he probably belongs in about the same Hall of Fame that Jim Rice belongs in,

Somewhere, Bill James deals directly with that comparison, with Dale Murphy thrown in for good measure, using their road stats, and he concluded that Cruz was every bit as good as they were.

But, a .316 lifetime BA? Is there a player with a long career and an average like that who is eligible for the HOF and isn't in the HOF? That isn't to say he should go in before a lot of other better players, but the same goes for Rice. Still, .316 would make a big dif. in the minds of many voters.

Too, didn't Cruz have the rep as being a rather poor fielder?

So what makes Cruz so much more special than players who were far better than him?

The "far better players" mentioned are Dierker and Ryan. Wasn't Cruz pretty clearly better than both of them, though? (Meaning their Astros careers, of course.)

There's also the key factor that Nolan Ryan left by his own choice while Cruz was essentially fired. Equating those two things requires stunningly twisted logic.

Here's all you need to know about Cruz's HoF chances ... even at b-r, if you enter "the jose cruz" you get Jr.

Folks seem to be getting confused. Cruz's career BA is 284. He hit 316 for those dozen years which is very impressive ... but also gives you an idea of how poorly he hit (BA-wise) the rest of the time to get his career BA down to 284. From 70-74 (ages 22-26) he hit 247/333/379 (1395 PA and playing for St L) which was still good for a 100 OPS+ but not helping his HoF chances. And for 87-88, he hit 234/301/375 (493 PA).

Kind of amazing what 2000 PAs of stinking can do to an overall line.

And Cruz's last part-season as a player was with the Yankees so the Astros already let the franchise icon leave once.

A good comp for Cruz is another under-rated guy who played for the Astros once -- Luis Gonzalez. Cruz wins on the basepaths, Gonzalez presumably wins in the field, everything else is pretty close once you adjust for context. Even if you limit Gonzalez to his career before that massive 57 HR year, he put up a line of 281/355/460 (115 OPS+) in 5800 PA with very good defense. Somewhat different shape to the production as Gonzalez was never a sustained 300 hitter but he never had Cruz's lows. And I'll admit I didn't fully appreciate Gonzalez during his time with the Cubs.

Until he decided to go cliff-diving, Geoff Jenkins was the same sort of player. Trying to think of current guys who fit this bill, I haven't come up with much. Crawford and Garrett Anderson don't walk enough, Abreu isn't quite right. Giles had too much power. Johnny Damon's fairly similar, Ethier maybe (good power right now but I can see him looking pretty similar in another 5-8 years ... and how's his defense?).

Folks seem to be getting confused. Cruz's career BA is 284. He hit 316 for those dozen years which is very impressive

That .316 is adjusted to a neutral ballpark. He didn't actually hit .316 over the years in question.

The only season in which he actually hit .316 or better was in 1983, when he hit .318.

Too, didn't Cruz have the rep as being a rather poor fielder?

When Cruz first came to the Astros (from the Cardinals) as a young player, he was a poor fielder. He worked on his defense over time, and eventually became a decent or average fielder in LF, I think. Cruz was responsible for some coaching of outfield defense on the Astros.

As for the point of the article, I agree with the idea that a new manager should be given a relatively clean slate so that he can pick coaches he wants (the Astros reassigned all of the coaches except for Berry and Clark, the latter who is among the interviewees for manager). As an Astros' fan, I always liked Cruz,the player, but I agree with the sentiment that nobody gets a lifetime appointment to a coaching position. Besides, Cruz has been offered a cushy, seemingly attractive position, which allows him to work with the players in the spring and also get some front office and PR type experience. I don't understand the hue and cry about mistreatment of Cruz.

what i don't get is why clark and berry weren't swept out with the rest

pretty silly

i think that a manager SHOULD be able to pick his coaches - cooper picked none of his and maybe that is why he never listened to any of em

as for cruz,

well, the hue and cry is because he is popular with astros fans and they want to see him standing at first base putting his hand on the runner's shoulder, telling him how many outs there are. which is about all he did. he SHOULD have done at least SOME arguing with umps on close/bad calls but he never did

there is a very good reason that drayton keeps having bobblehead giveaways for old astros stars - the fans want to see all the old guys

as for nolan ryan
it is irritating that people keep mixing up the facts - he was originally not re-signed to a FA contract by the PREVIOUS owner and then the rangers signed him

this time, he was working on some pr sort of stuff for the astros and tom hicks offered him the presidency of the rangers AND this meant that ryan got to run the team. so fans are complaining that drayton "let him go" - it would have been assholery maximal to hold him to the PR/"special assistant" contract where he got to wave his little hat to the crowd and appear in ST.

what there SHOULD be hue and cry about is that the list of manager candidates is a bunch of crappy candidates - wouldn't be surprised if nobody good wants to work for drayton - the boy got hisself a BAD rep

But, a .316 lifetime BA? Is there a player with a long career and an average like that who is eligible for the HOF and isn't in the HOF?

George Van Haltren, 1887-1903, 1984 games, .316 average.

who was the last manager to coach – routinely, or even once – at third base?

Bobby Valentine?

George Van Haltren, 1887-1903, 1984 games, .316 average.

Babe Hermann perhaps? .324 average, but only 1554 games.

Which reminds me - Todd Helton has a .328 lifetime average. That will come down as he declines, but I wonder what his HOF case will look like among sportswriters.

And, a related question, who was the last manager to coach – routinely, or even once – at third base? I seem to remember Lasorda doing it, or Herzog, or someone of that generation, at least occasionally. Durocher liked to coach at 3B, but I can't remember him doing it with the Cubs or Astros, which was when I started following baseball.

In Pitching in a Pinch, published in 1912, Christy Mathewson spends several pages talking about John McGraw being a much better manager when he was on the bench rather than being in the thirdbase coach's box. Apparently Mr. McGraw would start each Giants' game as the thirdbase coach and then, in the middle innings, if the Giants were behind or not playing up to standards, he would send someone else out to the coach's box and manage the rest of the game from the bench. Quoting Mathewson:

There is a real reason for his [McGraw] going to the bench when the team gets behind. It is because this increases the club's chances of winning. From the bench he can see the whole field, can note where his fielders are playing, can get a peek at the other bench, and perhaps pick up a tip as to what to expect. He can watch his own pitcher, or observe whether the opposing twirler drops his throwing arm as if weary. He is at the helm when "on the bench" and, noting any flaw in the opposition, he is in a position to take advantage of it at a moment's notice, or, catching some sign of faltering among his own men, he is immediately there to strengthen the weakness."

In talking about a specific game against the Pirates, Mathewson writes:

McGraw alone observed that sign of weakening [Pirates' pitcher Babe Adams dropping his arm for just a moment] and took advantage of it at the opportune time. He won the game from the bench. That is what makes him a great manager, observing the little things. Anyone can see the big ones. If he had been on the coaching lines, he would not have had as good an opportunity to study the young pitcher, for he would have had to devote his attention to the base runners. He might have missed this sign of wilting.

OK, some of that may just be Mathewson kissing up to his boss. There is, of course, no reason why McGraw couldn't "watch where his fielders are playing" or "watch his own pitcher" while still being the thirdbase coach, since he wouldn't be in the coach's box when the Giants were not at bat. But Mathewson's main point stands, that being that coaching third distracts the manager from observing all that is happening on and around the field, and could cause him to miss something significant that could be exploited. Which is why nowadays you practically never see managers coach thirdbase.

By the way, I realize that what I've written above doesn't in any way answer your question. It was just something I felt like sharing. Hopefully nobody minded too much.

DB

I think I remember Davey Johnson coaching third on occasion (while he was managing the Reds or possibly the Dodgers).

Hopefully nobody minded too much.

Nope. That's good stuff, DB.

One of the best things Mark Cuban has done for the Mavericks is basically having a coach for every player. Coaches are cheap. Besides scouts and ticket takers, they're probably the cheapest resource in the ballpark. So #### it, if it provides any sort of benefit for the relatively miniscule cost, why not have a bunch?

why not have a bunch?

Because MLB prohibits it?

MLB restricts the number of coaches a team can have? I'm not doubting, I just have never heard that in my life. Why on earth would they care? Coaches (not managers) aren't covered under any of the pension plans, are they? If I buy the Rangers and want the standard menagerie, plus a guy to coach my OF on how to break backwards, another coach just to help my pitchers perfect their curveballs, and one just to teach Jeter to go to his left, what's the BFD?

Larry Walker and Edgar Martinez both had BA's similar to the adjusted number (.316) over a reasonably similar # PA's- walker, .313 over 8030, Martinez .312 over 8672. Cruz, 8931.

Wow, #23, good find. George Van Haltren, 8979 PA's. Almost perfect.

MLB restricts the number of coaches a team can have? I'm not doubting, I just have never heard that in my life. Why on earth would they care?

I think the limit is on the number of non-players you can have in the dugout/on the field, so you could hire as many coaches as you wanted, they just couldn't all be on the field during the game.

I think the limit is on the number of non-players you can have in the dugout/on the field, so you could hire as many coaches as you wanted, they just couldn't all be on the field during the game.

I seem to remember that rule being brought up with Johnny Pesky of the Red Sox a few years ago, and the result was that he could work in uniform with the players on the field before the game, but couldn't be in uniform in the dugout once the game started.

well, the hue and cry is because he is popular with astros fans and they want to see him standing at first base putting his hand on the runner's shoulder, telling him how many outs there are. which is about all he did. he SHOULD have done at least SOME arguing with umps on close/bad calls but he never did

He was woefully inadequate at taking the protective shin pads and forearm protectors from the baserunners and delivering them to the bat boy. This is an extremely important aspect of the modern first-base coach job description. Unfortunately Cruz was mired in a 70s and 80s mindset.

Seriously, I like Cruz and he's very popular among the fanbase, but jeez. He's not entitled to anything.

He's asking who was the last manager to coach 3B, while he was the manager?

FWIW, Gary Carter did it this past year for the Long Island Ducks in the independent Atlantic League.

Lasorda would coach third when he thought the team was slumping, sort of a variant of pulling the lineup out of the hat. As for his bellyflops, he would throw himself on the ground when he was telling a baserunner to slide.

Regarding Cruz, what I always loved about him was the leg kick that he did in the beginning of his swing. IIRC it was unique in MLB at the time, but looked a lot like the standard high lift of the front foot that seems to be very common in Japan.

36, I think that's SOP in the minors.

Lasorda would coach third when he thought the team was slumping, sort of a variant of pulling the lineup out of the hat.

Also a variant to having sex with a chick who looks like Tommy Lasorda as a slumpbuster.

#25 Riggs Stephenson was talked up a lot in my youth, but: only 1310 games in a great time for BA. And while it doesn't matter much, being the worst throwing outfielder of his day has to matter some.

didn't Cruz have the rep as being a rather poor fielder

Already pretty well covered. Back when the Cardinals were a fairly disfunctional team Cruz picked up a rep as lazy/uninterested. I think it's simply a matter that he was asked to play CF and he wasn't good enough. Brings to mind Bill James' comment on Bill Madlock at second.