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Thursday, March 01, 2007

IBA: Del Grande: Santo’s Hall pitch is getting old

Polydipsia alert!...Del Grande not so sweet on Santo.

First off, Santo does not belong in the Hall of Fame. He had less impact as a player than Sal Bando during the years their careers overlapped, and nowhere near the offensive force Matt Williams was during a comparable slice of his playing days.

Bando’s first full season with the A’s was 1968; Santo’s last with the Cubs was 1974. Over that stretch, “Captain Sal” hit .262 with 150 home runs and 627 RBIs, whereas “Pizza” produced a .266 average with 144 homers and 615 RBIs.

That’s pretty even until you consider Bando played in a much tougher hitters’ ballpark and helped contribute to championship teams, whereas Santo benefited from Wrigley Field’s prevailing wind and the Cubs’ endless run of meaningless games.

Repoz Posted: March 01, 2007 at 07:41 AM | 17 comment(s)
Related News: General, Chi Cubs, Hall of Fame

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1. frannyzoo Posted: March 01, 2007 at 09:27 AM (#2304993)

No RTFA here, but the quote above re-raises the obvious point that writers/sportswriters could use a formal logic class or two. A poorly constructed syllogism is a pitiful thing indeed.

2. jonathan (Joseph HannaCust) Posted: March 01, 2007 at 09:33 AM (#2304995)

Never, ever, ever link to Dave Del Grande. He's the poorest excuse for a columnist I've ever seen. The Oakland Tribune on the whole is a joke, but Del Grande, even within that context, is especially bad.

3. Doc Nabbit Posted: March 01, 2007 at 09:33 AM (#2304996)

Well, someone's gonna rebut the argument, might as well be me . . .

First, 1974 was not Ron Santo's last year with the Cubs. He was on the Sox that year. It was his last year in baseball. (If you're curious, comparing A's/Cubs years, Santo leads 272 AVG, 139 HR, 574 RBIs to Bando's .265 Avg, 128 HR, and 524 RBIs. Santo also had more RC and fewer outs).

Santo won five Gold Gloves. Bando won zip.

Bando's offensive prime was 1969-74. Santo's offensive prime was, well, depending on how you want to slice it either 1964-67 or 1963-9. His peak was definately 1964-7.

If you think that defensive value cancels out park factor (I'm not sure it would) then Santo's post-peak value was equal to Bando's peak value.

Santo also played over 200 more games.

4. Misirlou in a Gleaming Alloy Air Car Posted: March 01, 2007 at 09:39 AM (#2305000)

Holy crap, does this guy have a HOF vote!?

Hey doofus, from 1977-1981, Captain Sal hit just .250 with 50 HR and 243 RBI. Over that same time span, Butch Hobson hit .251 90 and 360. Should Hobson go in before Bando?

5. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: March 01, 2007 at 09:40 AM (#2305001)

I was just going to say...Santo's decline phase was as good as Bando's peak? Hot dang that's a heckuva player.

6. Andere Richtingen Posted: March 01, 2007 at 09:59 AM (#2305008)

That could be the dumbest argument I've ever seen put forward by a sportswriter. Good to see the Bay Area papers maintaining an outstanding tradition.

7. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 01, 2007 at 10:35 AM (#2305037)

Boy, that was a sad column.

8. JPWF13 Posted: March 01, 2007 at 10:51 AM (#2305058)

and nowhere near the offensive force Matt Williams was during a comparable slice of his playing days.

Let's see: Santo's best 5 years by OPS+:
164, 161, 153, 146 ,138 (career 125)
Williams: 176 (80 games or so), 140, 137, 133 , 128 (career 113)

100 rbi seasons: 4 each
triple crown stats: Santo: .277-342-1331
Williams: .268-378-1218

You know Williams is better than I thought- not nearly as good as Santo in context, but still a pretty good career

9. Misirlou in a Gleaming Alloy Air Car Posted: March 01, 2007 at 11:00 AM (#2305065)

Let's see: Santo's best 5 years by OPS+:
164, 161, 153, 146 ,138 (career 125)
Williams: 176 (80 games or so), 140, 137, 133 , 128 (career 113)

You know Williams is better than I thought- not nearly as good as Santo in context, but still a pretty good career

Santo games played during those 5 years - 161, 155, 161, 164, 133

William games played - 76, 112, 145, 105, 157

No, they really aren't very similar. I realized you said that, but quoting OPS+ outside of context is pretty misleading.

10. B. Selig Posted: March 01, 2007 at 11:07 AM (#2305075)

During his first seven years, the so-called Sultan of Swat hit but 94 home runs.

11. TomH Posted: March 01, 2007 at 11:16 AM (#2305084)

This has to be the most foolish piece of number crunching I have seen published in a reputable paper in a long time.
Sure, compare one guy in his prime to another in his down years. I mean, Hal Trosky was better than Ruth in the years they overlapped, send Hal to the Hall! Maybe the fact that Ron Santo was an annual all-star and MVP candidate before 1968 is a tad bit relevant? Maybe there are other things in life besides triple crown stats? Maybe this author should go play a roto game with 5th graders.
Oh yes, Matt Williams had better HR and RBI. In the 1990s. Gee, maybe a few other guys did OK in the 90s too.

12. curmudgeon66 Posted: March 01, 2007 at 02:02 PM (#2305276)

Ah, it's about what you'd expect from a quiche-eating, white-wine-sucking, Left-Coast dilettante who obviously knows nothing about baseball in general and Ron Santo's career in particular.

13. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: March 01, 2007 at 02:23 PM (#2305289)

During the time their careers overlapped, Mark Fidrych was one of the best pitchers in baseball, while Henry Aaron was a DH who couldn't hit.

14. noiseboy Posted: March 01, 2007 at 07:28 PM (#2305521)

I can't believe they'd print this pap, especially considering Santo put up his numbers with diabetes.

15. Lake Placido Polanco (Crispix Attacks) Posted: March 01, 2007 at 07:51 PM (#2305536)

During the years their careers overlapped, Gary Carter hit .229/.305/.356 in about 900 at-bats while splitting time with Ed Hearn and Barry Lyons, while Delino DeShields hit .272/.362/.373 in almost 1600 at-bats as a full-time middle infielder. And yet which one is in the Hall?

16. cardsfanboy Posted: March 01, 2007 at 07:58 PM (#2305543)

Is this actually a real newspaper? I just thought it was a blog article or even satire.

17. A well respected Meat Posted: March 01, 2007 at 08:04 PM (#2305548)

wow i held off on my anger the day the results came out, but this just might bring it forth once again. im sorry but this writer is a ####### moron. is this a typical article for him? if so lets never link to this guy again. sure he uses numbers, but in the most assine and incorrect way he could of, way to go you sir are an idiot.
and mike crudale

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Thursday, March 01, 2007

IBA: Del Grande: Santo’s Hall pitch is getting old

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