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Thursday, June 05, 2008
It Is About The Money, Stupid: Gammons on Kei: Blame Guidry
The unclever Cajun roux strikes again!
Interesting Q&A with Peter Gammons from his segment on the Mike Felger Show on 890 ESPN. Below is part of that transcript and this was particularly interesting on two fronts (emphasis mine):
Don’t know if you’ve heard my spiel, but I wonder if you just have to make a few exceptions for Dice-K and really let throw more pitches than you’re used to allowing and let him go to 120?
PG: They’ve done that and I think it’s a good idea. That’s one thing that the Red Sox have really done. Ron Guidry was the Yankees pitching coach and he took Kei Igawa and changed his delivery and he’s never been the same. The interesting thing was that if the Yankees put Igawa on waivers the Sox, from my understanding, were going to put a claim in on him. He needs to go back to doing what he does when he was a very successful pitcher in Japan.
Let’s review, shall we?
Guidry screwed up Kei
RedSox were ready to claim him if waivedWhat can we make of this? Just as a pitching coach is often credited with saving or returning a pitcher to a certain level, can we hang Guidry for messing up Kei? Can’t Kei simply go back to doing what worked for him in Japan, now that Guidry is gone? I need to go hunting for the pitch mechanics who can look at the before/after deliveries of Kei and weigh in.
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I am sorry Guidry ruined your autumn, Gammo.
If it were a legitimate criticism, the Yanks would have figured it out already.
Guidry was a crappy pitching coach.
No argument here.
I remember last year one of the young pitchers had a tough outing and after he was pulled, Guidry walked over and ripped him a new one in front of the video cameras for all to see.
I don't remember this happening. I wouldn't be shocked if it didn't.
I already agreed with you that he's a crappy pitching coach.
Well, you still think the Yankee won sole possession of the AL EAST in 2005 so there's that to consider too.
Well, if we're comparing each other by how we honestly evaluate our respective two teams, I'll have to bow out, I can't hope to compete with your integrity and honesty.
The Club with the higher winning percentage in head-to-head competition between the two tied Clubs during the championship season
(Source)
2005 W%, Head-to-Head:
Yankees: .526
Red Sox: .473
But hey, you've never let facts get in the way of your inane rantings before, so why start now?
If you look at mlb.com at the standings for the AL East in 2005, the Red Sox are listed first (I would assume it's alphabetical). There's no indication on the standings page that the Yankees were the division champs.
My feeling is the Red Sox tied for the division. The Yankees were declared division champs for seeding purposes.
I also think the bet should have been paid.
when did they add that portion to the rules, I know it wasn't there in 2001, and I thought it was added a few years later, but wasn't too sure if it was added before 2005 or not. I always assumed it was added because of 2005, but it's possible that it was added because of 2001.
I remember last year one of the young pitchers had a tough outing and after he was pulled, Guidry walked over and ripped him a new one in front of the video cameras for all to see.
Even given my first comment, a poor pitching coach doesn't necessarily do everything poorly, and if this event actually occurred, I don't believe it's necessarily evidence of Guidry's inability to do the job. Without knowing the background or the characters involved or the issues or context of the conversation at all, it's entirely possible that this was a warranted approach. Some personalities respond better to more dramatic criticism, or it's possible that this was the umpteenth time the pitcher had demonstrated that he wasn't listening to the coach's advice and it was time to drive it home (whether or not the point being driven was a good one is a different matter).
Also, Red Sox fans grousing about 2005 or anything else that's happened to them in the last four years is unseemly. You should really put that violin away before some Pirates fan goes all Bluto on it.
ok, thanks, then it was probably instituted in response to the Cards/Astros decision. (both fly the division banner) MLB definately didn't want to get involved in that argument at the time and insisted it was just about seeding. Houston fans hate the Cardinals flying the banner though.
I remember some story (from 2006, probably), when Wang was having trouble pitching out of the stretch. Guidry had no idea what to do, so he asked Mike Mussina to help him - Mussina looked at the video and noticed something incredibly simple (Wang's feet were too far apart or something like that)
it was at that point I completely gave up on Guidry as a pitching coach.
I remember Maglie agreeing with Tom Watson on the computer thing.
Not for my team, though. It would be incredibly annoying to watch an entire staff doing that slow rise in the stretch. Heck, he's already got Kennedy doing it.
I agree too, I just think Igawa is crappy pitcher, and guidry is a crappy coach. th notion that Guidry ruined Igawa is silly.
it was at that point I completely gave up on Guidry as a pitching coach.
In Feinstein's book, Mussina said that Guidry didn't say a word to him for the two weeks he had the dead arm and was pulled from the rotaion.
You mean where he peeks over to the runner at 1B from between his legs...to hold him close.
(Whirly bird/pinwheel hat tip to Michael Kay)
I'm not sure if you're joking (your sarcasm is hard to read, Repoz), but I think he does that to give himself more time to change his grip in his glove. It's a pretty clever trick, I think.
Kay actually said that last week after talking to Mussina about it.
Knowing smartass Moose...he was pulling Kay's bolt.
Dude, you lost, the MLB press release for the playoffs noted the Al Eastern Division Champ New York Yankees.
No big deal man, there is no shame in finishing second.
I think your missing the point. Of course, we see that Igawa is a crappy pitcher now, but we are talking about from before to now. The fact is that Japanese pitchers have had a pretty good track record when coming to the Major Leagues. Igawa right now is making Irabu look like Whitey Ford in comparison. It's hard for me to believe that a pretty good Japanese pitcher comes over and suddenly turns into a AA-level guy. Something other than him just being "crappy" is going on.
"the Division Champion shall be" (the team with the better head-to-head record)
ML Baseball's Official Press Release.
When Division Series play commences on Tuesday, Game One of the American League Division Series involving the AL East Champion New York Yankees will be played at 8:00 p.m.
That having been said, I doubt having Guidry did him any favors. But he's a guy whose out pitch is a chest-high change-up. There's not a lot you can do with that.
Yes, a season where one team finishes 100-63 and the other finishes 99-64 is the equivalent to two teams finishing 95-67.
You want to call the Yankees the AL East Division champs. I've got no argument. They were declared that for seeding purposes.
It's also true the Red Sox finished tied for first that season.
On Igawa, I think he came to the worst possible team for him. Just about any other team that he went to would have felt obligated to keep him their rotation and see if he could work out of it, after investing all that money in him. The Yankees didn't need to worry about that, and I don't think they gave him much of a chance to work through his problems.
After a horrible time in the bigs last year, he's done this in AAA:
07: 68.1 IP, 68 H, 10 HR, 15 BB, 71 K, 3.69 ERA.
08: 66.1 IP, 60 H, 8 HR, 17 BB, 61 K, 4.07 ERA.
Doesn't that look like someone who would at least be a decent back-of-the-rotation starter in the Majors?
I forgive the Gator.
Hey sj, let me clue you in on something, OK?
Red Sox fans don't really care about 1978 anymore, thanks to 2004, and the historical, gutless
playoff collapse your squad laid on its fanbase.
Years like 1978 just made the whole thing so much sweeter for all of us Sox fans.
I just keeeding.
/sarcasm
But I still know some people who would have liked to win in 1978 and 2004.
And blaming the gator is simply wrong here.
08: 66.1 IP, 60 H, 8 HR, 17 BB, 61 K, 4.07 ERA.
Hmm...maybe, but it also looks like a bad Eric Milton season.
2. Guidry stopped talking to Mussina after he was pulled from the rotation last season, per Living on the Black, which I thought was an excellent book. So we know, at least, his communication skills werent top notch.
if guidry is indeed a crummy pitching coach, that's a shame, but i wouldn't know. just standing up for cajun pride. god knows america hates cajuns enough.
oh really? have we ever had a cajun president?
07: 68.1 IP, 15 BB
08: 66.1 IP, 17 BB
Eh? A few too many big flies, which doesn't necessarily negate other arguments made here, but control looks ok.
Edit: And when I'm elected president, I'll have a Cajun chef.
a little premature, no?
2. While "Best" is certainly open to many definitions, there is no question that 1978 Guidry was better than Papelbon is likely to ever dream of being.
oh really? have we ever had a cajun president?
How many have run?
I'd vote for Marc Savoy. Slogan: "Crabbier than McCain!"
Some 10-year old in West Africa is probably wearing them together with the 19-0 shirts.
As far as pitchers go, it looks to be Guidry vs. Pettitte. I'd definitely go with Guidry for now, but if Pettitte keeps it up a few more years, it could be debatable.
I'm sure he will. Someone has to be grounded in reality. The Yankees won the division in 2005, and that's, all there is to it.
Just like the Red Sox won last year and likely will this year. It's really not a big deal. Baseball is cyclical that way.
whats next, a re-hashing on whether or not that play Jeter made when he dove into the stands was great or not?
playoff collapse your squad laid on its fanbase.
"Years like 1978 just made the whole thing so much sweeter for all of us Sox fans."
Wow. Has it come to this?
I'd dare say both collapses were painful for fans of both franchises. And I'd hazard a guess that Sox fans would just have assumed not had the gut-wrenching losses of 1978, 1986 or 2003 or an 86-year drought of World Series titles to make winning in 2004, "sweeter".
The Club with the higher winning percentage in head-to-head competition between the two tied Clubs during the championship season
2005 W%, Head-to-Head:
Yankees: .526
Red Sox: .473
You keep ignoring it, I'll keep posting it.
Agree or disagree?"
I see that. But are you saying there was a vast conspiracy against the Red Sox that year? The Yankees had the better head-to-head record.
Did I miss the mass outrage when the Yankees were declared the division winner?
Yes, there was a blow up because a prominent Red Sox game chat participant refused to honor the bet when he lost.
Isn't that "reality" why MLB (and every other league) has tiebreakers? It's not like they had to take it to the Supreme Court.
Biff.
It's one thing to object to that rule, but your argument reads as though that you are failing to acknowledge that it even exists.
There's a fine line between disappointed and delusional. The Yankees were the American League East division title holders in 2005. The Red Sox were the Wild Card. I really don't understand how you can dispute this to your satisfaction without plugging your ears and singing "Mary Had A Little Lamb" at the top of your voice.
Again, where was the controversy when in 2005 when the Yankees were declared the division winner. Since ESPN is Red Sox Nation, where was the outrage. I didn't see it.
This is not debatable.
From RB's link above:
Emphasis mine. There is nothing conditional in the wording of the ruling, nothing stating that "for the purposes of the playoff seeding..." The wording says "declared the Division Champion." How is that gray?
The Club with the higher winning percentage in head-to-head competition between the two tied Clubs during the championship season
2005 W%, Head-to-Head:
Yankees: .526
Red Sox: .473
You keep ignoring it, I'm still right. And now I'm done.
And in the resulting playoff pairings, the Red Sox lost to the WS champs, so what's your problem. It's not like they lost to a hot team that cooled off or was a bad matchup for the Sox and then got swept in the next round, leaving you to think "if only..." and have some semblance of a reason to be upset about this.
ZING! (see what I did there? I brought everything together! good night everybody)
Kevin, just wondering, how long can you keep going on this? What if Bob DuPay came to your home and told you the Yankees won the division, would you insist on a visit from Selig?
No, that's true. Your problem has nothing to do with documents distributed by MLB.
andy pettite is originally from baton rouge, but i'm not sure he's full-blooded cajun.
i dont think brett favre is full-blooded cajun, and besides he's originally from mississippi, which brings up a raft of legitimacy issues ... but he is very popular in louisiana nonetheless.
jonathan papelbon is about as cajun as a hunk of cheddar cheese.
though a lot of true cajuns like a hunk of cheddar on a cracker with a beer.
*'bra' is the cajun version of 'bro'. if you know a true cajun, and are his friend, you will eventually be addressed as 'bra'.
.583 can equal .583 as much as kevin wants. MLB's rules don't declare the inquiry complete at that point.
Well that's not what you're arguing - I would agree with you on that point. The fact of the matter is though, MLB does it a different way. The rules say what they say. You can think that those are stupid rules (I don't think that this one makes sense) but according to the rules, the Yankees won the division.
Who has suggested the Yankees had a better record?
The Yankees won the division title.
The teams tied for first.
Totally. And under the circumstances, I think it's totally appropriate for the Cardinals to claim the 2004 World Championship since they won the most games that year. And it's totally fine for the Yankees to claim victory in the 2007 ALDS because midges shouldn't determine the outcome of a game.
Screw the rules. We're all winners. Hurray for us. Run up the flags. Good news, Pittsburgh! You're on your way to your 127th consecutive championship! Drinks are on you!
Pretending otherwise means you are trying to welsh on a bet.
This is fun.
But there is *gasp* a tie-breaker step! Who ever in sports has ever heard of such a thing?
You are wrong. Nothing more to be said.
I think the metaphor got away from me there, because it was about to turn into a whole Trading Places thing.
2) I don't even acknowledge division "champions" is that like WCW's old TV Champion? Who cares. First place I acknowledge, and the teams were tied for first place.
3) Who cares. Only 1 team was the champion - neither the redsox or the yankees.
4) Guidry was a bad pitching coach.
5) Igawa sucked, and it was clear the Yankees signed him as a panic move after the sox brought in Dice.
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