Bad news for the Jays, their fans, and people who like to watch entertaining baseball players.

Nice to see Joe Inglett get the call to the big leagues in time to head back to Cleveland, though.

Jesus, sorry Canada. That sucks.

The biggest immediate problem is that the team needs to be blown up, with the contracts that are able to be dealt traded for promising younger players.

The problem of course is that the minor league system is empty due to Ricciardi's poor drafting, and the last person that should be overseeing a major overhaul is the GM who's about be deservedly fired.

It’s time to blow up the team and play the young guys.

Regrettably, I agree with this statement.

FTFA:

To fill the holes, the Jays have promoted reliever Armando Benitiz and Joe Inglett from Triple-A Syracuse.

Benitiz? ####.

The biggest immediate problem is that the team needs to be blown up, with the contracts that are able to be dealt traded for promising younger players.

The problem of course is that the minor league system is empty due to Ricciardi's poor drafting, and the last person that should be overseeing a major overhaul is the GM who's about be deservedly fired.

There's also the problem in that the veterans that you would want to trade aren't hitting well enough for anyone to want them:

Stewart .226 .305 .286
Ovebay .272 .384 .368
Stairs .275 .318 .422
Barajas .226 .293 .340
Zaun .270 .363 .360
Eckstein .246 .315 .322

In terms of pitchers, the only one who both could and should be moved for a decent return is Burnett. All the others are either signed to bargain deals for the Jays (Halladay), young and good (the rest of the rotation), good but too expensive for someone to want (B.J. Ryan), or miscellaneous bullpen filler (everyone else).

It's even worse in that most of these guys aren't even making big money, so trading them doesn't buy you much room for next year.

Anyone have a link to the Vernon Wells contract thread? I want to see what the consensus was regarding that deal here.

There's also the problem in that the veterans that you would want to trade aren't hitting well enough for anyone to want them:

Zaun .270 .363 .360

That's not bad at all for a catcher. The Yankees could use that right now.

That's not bad at all for a catcher. The Yankees could use that right now.

I agree. It's just sad that this is the best thing the Jays have to offer that they would want to offer.

Lind should be playing right now. He could platoon with Mench in LF and WIlkerson plays RF.

Instead, he's being blocked by Shannon Stewart? WTF? Even Lind wouldn't do worse than .226 .305 .286, and likely a lot better. 19 at bats isn't enough.

It's just sad that this is the best thing the Jays have to offer that they would want to offer.

Fair enough. It'll be an intriguing race for last in the East, I reckon.

This is what I'd do.

1) Trade A.J. Burnett. Pitching is always in need, and the Jays could probably get a prospect for him at this point. Keep in mind, if he stays here all year and has a good year, he could be a Type A free agent, and garner a first round pick and a sandwhich pick.

2) See what Purcey and League have got. Don't waste time with Armanodo Benitez. (woops, not happening, and it cost Tracy Thorpe).

3) Optional: let Diaz or Thigpen become the backup catcher at the ML level. Neither catcher likely has much trade value.

4) Call up Adam Lind. Platoon him and Kevin Mench. Keep Wilkerson over Shannon because he at least will have a good OBP, and can play all 3 OF positions. Giving up on Lind after 19 at bats is absurd, and he can't do worse than slug under 300 like Shannon. Or sign Barry Bonds for $1 million with some nice incentives, and watch your team get even better on offense than it was before, not letting all this good pitching go to waste.

5) Shop Lyle Overbay. He has good defense and a nice contract. But the second he starts hitting again this year, and I think the power will come back eventually, get what you can for him. He has the average and OBP, which makes me think the doubles and power will come back a bit. But I'd rather put a young player like Lind or Snider at 1b in 2009, and don't trust his sub 400 SLG over the last two years.

Lyle Overbay. He has good defense and a nice contract. But the second he starts hitting again this year, and I think the power will come back eventually, get what you can for him. He has the average and OBP, which makes me think the doubles and power will come back a bit.

There's always a chance he's in the late-era Olerud stage of his career. Which isn't valueless, but isn't much, either.

A few quick points.

Lind certainly could, and has, hit worse than Shannon Stewart. I agree that the team should call him up and see if they have anything, but my guess is they don't and they do have to sell tickets which gets harder when their leftfielder seems to be simply out of his league.

Roy Halladay may be reasonably priced, but he's in decline and won't be a contributor by the time Ricciardi's replacement has rebuilt the scouting system that Ricciardi decimated and built a farm system that isn't the joke the current one is, let alone rebuilt the major league team.

Burnett should be dealt, I agree with that.

Overbay has negative trade value rather than a nice contract. He's making 7 million through 2010 and he's not justifying that. The Jays will have to eat money on that deal

Purcey should get work out of the pen. He can't start at the major league level and needs to learn to pitch to major leaguers out of the pen in low leverage situations. The Jays will certainly have a lot of those from here on in.

I feel sorry for Gibbons. He'll be the first canned, and is perhaps the last to be blamed for the hand he's been dealt.

It'll be a shame if Godfrey isn't axed. It was on his watch that Ricciardi destroyed the scouting department in order to eliminate potential critics of his poor drafting.

Keep in mind, if he stays here all year and has a good year, he could be a Type A free agent, and garner a first round pick and a sandwhich pick.

There was some situation with the Drew contract where the Dodgers didn't get a pick for Drew if he opted out. I think it was part of how the opt-out was structured - is that possibly the same case here?

Vernon Wells T.O.

Globe

Rosenthal

Yahoo

I don't detect any real consensus.

It'll be a shame if Godfrey isn't axed. It was on his watch that Ricciardi destroyed the scouting department in order to eliminate potential critics of his poor drafting.

As is repeated in almost every JP thread, this is not what happened.

Keep Wilkerson over Shannon because he at least will have a good OBP, and can play all 3 OF positions.

I don't know about CF. I mean if it is for a game or two, sure. However, I would not pencil him in CF for an extended period of time. He did handle himself well at 1B with the Rangers last season, for what it's worth.

He also bobbled about 9 balls in RF in tonight's game, for what it's worth.

The problem of course is that the minor league system is empty due to Ricciardi's poor drafting, and the last person that should be overseeing a major overhaul is the GM who's about be deservedly fired.

I agree with this. J.P., in the end (and I know there were a lot of people around here who thought he'd kick ass as a GM), has been a dismal failure. The Jays have been stuck in the mud his entire tenure.

Fair enough. It'll be an intriguing race for last in the East, I reckon.

I have faith in Baltimore's ability to win that race.

The Jays wont finish last, but how funny that they are out of it again in early May! Again!

This isn't my post, but someone wrote an extensive post on how the Jays should rebuild on another board: http://www.bluejayway.ca/forums/index.php?showtopic=3600

It's very specific, such as:

- Everyone at or above the age of 26yrs old is tradeable (including an exception). By the time this rebuilding is finished, many of these guys will be just ending their prime. I want my core to be approximately the same age.

-Halladay and Scott Downs to Detroit for Rick Porcello (RHP), James Skelton ©, and Brandon Hamilton (RHP). Detroit makes this deal because they’re in a win now mode (with a lot of pressure) and they desperately need the pitching. Porcello has an electric arm with huge upside (he has been excellent at high A and is only 19). Skelton is a catcher with some upside. Hamilton has an good arm albeit an erratic one (hits 96mph but sometimes as low as 88-90mph).

-Matt Stairs to New York Mets for Ruben Tejada (SS/2B) or Steve Clyne (RHP). The Mets can always use an extra bat for the stretch run. Tejada and Clyne are both raw prospects with some upside. Can’t expect any more for a 40yrs old vet on pace to hit 20HR’s.

-Dustin McGowan and BJ Ryan (with some cash) to Atlanta for Jason Heyward (OF), Cole Rohrbough (LHP), and Gorkys Hernandez (OF). Atlanta does this trade because with Smoltz going to the DL and going to be their closer when he returns, they have a hole in their rotation. What better way to fill it than to get a kid from Georgia who has an excellent upside and is cheap. With the Jays taking a bite out of Ryan salary, he would be the perfect setup guy for Smoltz. Heyward has tremendous upside (I think he was one of the top 3 or 4 talents of last year’s draft). Hernandez has some nice upside. Rohrbough has some nice upside too, but needs to improve his changeup.

-Aaron Hill and Jesse Litsch to Chicago Cubs for Josh Vitters (3B) and Jose Ceda (RHP). The Cubs need a 2B and Hill can both hit and field. Litsch has done a really nice job so far, but I trade him because I don’t think that his value can get any higher. The Cubs are in a win now mode and young major league ready talent that is very affordable longterm must be very attractive. Vitters has good upside with his sweet swing (despite his slow start). Ceda throws very hard but needs way better control. He’s a high risk high reward type guy.

-Shaun Marcum and Alex Rios to Seattle for Phillippe Aumont (RHP) and Carlos Truinfel (SS). The Mariners do this because Bavasi is desperate to save his job and Rios and Marcum have manageable contracts. The Mariners would have a very nice rotation with Marcum and Rios would be a great upgrade over Balentien. He would make 2/3 of the OF among the best defensively in baseball. Aumont is a high ceiling young fireballing Canadian. Truinfel is raw, has a fairly high ceiling, and there are questions whether he can remain at SS.

-Vernon Wells to LA Dodgers for Andrew Jones and Chris Withrow (RHP). The Dodgers get Wells who is much better than Jones and they get rid of Jones. Taking back Jones eliminates the need to include salary in the deal and helps to resolve their crowded OF (now it’s obvious that Juan Pierre is the odd man out). Withrow is the Dodgers 1st round pick last year and throws quite hard. Jones would just be filling out the major league roster waiting for his hideous remaining 1.5yrs left on his contract to expire. Should he regain some of his former talent, I would deal him too. But, I don’t expect much from him.

-Scott Rolen (and cash) to Philadelphia for Adrian Cardenas (2B). When your 3B is Pedro Feliz you need some help there. I’ll admit that I don’t know if Rolen going back to Philadelphia is feasible, but it makes sense on a baseball level. The Jays get back Cardenas a nice hitting prospect whose future position is uncertain.

-Jason Frasor, Jeremy Accardo (assuming he comes back from the DL healthy and more productive), and Brian Tallet to Milwaukee for Jeremy Jeffress (RHP). Having an ineffective Gagne and just finished cutting Turnbow makes the Brewers in a need for help in the pen. Jeffress has some serious makeup issues relating to habit of testing positive for weed. Jeffress throws really hard and has high upside. The rest of his makeup seems fine. It’s just that weed problem that’s in the way.

Others:
-Overbay noone is going to want. He’s a below average 1B, who hasn’t hit like his position demands and is signed longterm. Noone wants that. He could re-establish his value if he got his power stroke back.
-Burnett might be easier to move near the deadline. If he has a somewhat similar year to last season, another team might be willing to pick him up. Depending what other teams are offering, I’m tempted to just let him walk and pick up a draft pick(s).
-Zaun doesn’t have much value. Someone might want him for the stretch run (the Yankees maybe if Posada’s health doesn’t improve). I would just let him walk with the possibility of picking up a draft pick.
-Eckstein doesn’t have trade value either. I would just let him walk with the possibility of picking up a draft pick.

I have faith in Baltimore's ability to win that race.

Aww, come on, Baltimore'll choke down the stretch, win a few games they shouldn't, and finish 4th, 18 behind the 1st-place Rays.

J.P. must go.

Aww, come on, Baltimore'll choke down the stretch, win a few games they shouldn't, and finish 4th, 18 behind the 1st-place Rays.

That's weird... I was just about to post that things are breaking the right way for the Rays here. With 6-8 weeks of Toronto milling around, going nowhere and then the inevitable sell-off, the Rays just jumped over another team on their way to a possible wild card spot (or division title).

If Papi or Manny go down with an injury, it could get very, very interesting in the East. I would guess with young players, they tend to get better as the season goes on, not worse. That would mean that the Rays should expect to improve over the next few months, not cool off. The future could be now.

I would guess with young players, they tend to get better as the season goes on, not worse.

They also tend to hit a wall where they can't do anything right for a month.

Besides, the Red Sox have some young players too who are really good.

Ray have a great shot at the wild card, however.

Besides, the Red Sox have some young players too who are really good.

And some old players (Manny, Ortiz, Lowell, Tek), who are really old. Outside of New England, there's no comparison between Upton/Longoria and Ellsbury/Pedroia. Maybe you could argue Carlos Pena's coming back to earth, but from what I've seen (four games against the O's), he's in shape and playing hard.

I thought the only thing holding the Rays back would be their bullpen... the starters are there. Look out, league!

Wells spent 2 of the past 3 years (I had better sense than to draft his leprous ass this time) screwing my fantasy team, consideringly how highly I took him. Who knew that such activity weakened the wrist?

And some old players (Manny, Ortiz, Lowell, Tek), who are really old.

32 isn't "really old".
34 isn't "really old".
Even 36 isn't "really old".

C'mon, you're reaching here.

Outside of New England, there's no comparison between Upton/Longoria and Ellsbury/Pedroia.

Exactly. Ellsbury and Pedroia are coming off ring years. Upton/Longoria aren't.

Wells breaking his wrist shouldn't really impact if JP keeps his job or not. But it does make snagging Wilkerson seem sensible...

Outside of New England, there's no comparison between Upton/Longoria and Ellsbury/Pedroia.

Wait, you think it's a lock (or close to it) that Upton/Longoria produce more value than Ellsbury/Pedroia this year? I'm not sure it's likely, let alone at the "no comparison" point.

Upton/Longoria are already outproducing Ellsbury/Pedroia, despite the fact that neither Ray has had that hot a start.

Pedroia:
.307 .343 .411 104

Ellbury:
.278 .385 .398 113

Longoria:
.218 .324 .414 106

Upton:
.285 .379 .415 123

And I'd expect the Rays to heat up quite a bit.

For Sox aging--oh, c'mon, do you expect either Lowell or Ortiz to match their numbers of last year? We've talked about Ortiz's body type at length. I'd bet neither's got more than a season or two of above-average performance in them. Manny might be better, might not, and Varitek has sucked on the road for years (Pedroia's pretty average outside Fenway as well).

Halladay and Scott Downs to Detroit for Rick Porcello (RHP), James Skelton (C), and Brandon Hamilton (RHP). Detroit makes this deal because they’re in a win now mode (with a lot of pressure) and they desperately need the pitching. Porcello has an electric arm with huge upside (he has been excellent at high A and is only 19). Skelton is a catcher with some upside. Hamilton has an good arm albeit an erratic one (hits 96mph but sometimes as low as 88-90mph).

As 2007 draftees, neither Porcello nor Hamilton can be traded until one year after they signed their initial contracts.

EDIT: And most of the other trades proposed involve 2007 draft choices, as well.

-- MWE

As 2007 draftees, neither Porcello nor Hamilton can be traded until one year after they signed their initial contracts.

Which would be pretty soon, wouldn't it?

Many of these trades are of the "We'll send you our garbage for your #1 pick" type. I don't see 'em happening.

Aaron Hill and Jesse Litsch to Chicago Cubs for Josh Vitters (3B) and Jose Ceda (RHP).

Um, no.

Upton/Longoria are already outproducing Ellsbury/Pedroia, despite the fact that neither Ray has had that hot a start.

Pedroia is a 2B with a .269 EQA, Longoria is a 3B with a .269 EQA. They've had identical offensive production, and Pedroia plays the more valuable defensive spot.

Ellsbury and Upton are both center fielders, but Ellsbury has a .298 EQA, while Upton has a .289. Baserunning counts too! No reason to be using OPS+ when good offensive stats are available.

Upton/Longoria will probably have better careers, and may even have better seasons than Ellsbury/Pedroia. They haven't outproduced them yet, and the "neither has a hot start" defense applies to both the Red Sox players too.

Exactly. Ellsbury and Pedroia are coming off ring years. Upton/Longoria aren't.

Count the ringzzzzzzzzz.

Being a Jays fan, there's been more than one time this season that I've gone up and down the roster looking for trade-able bodies.

The most I can come up with is
Hill
Rios
Marcum
McGowan
Halladay

The only one I'd trade would be Halladay. Marcum/McGowan/Rios seem to pass the old "next good Jays team" test, and I'm not sure, but it seems Hill ins under-rated. I'm not sure if the value you'd get for him equals the value he brings to the Jays. Plus he's young as well.

It's stress-relieving to talk about blowing up a team...but does dumping Zaun, Shannon Stewart or Matt Stairs for nothing really make the team better in 2011? I mean, if you can swing a Traschel-Moore type trade, go for it...but the idea that how the Jays deal with Gregg Zaun will effect their (hopeful) resurgence in 2011 or whenever, seems dubious to me.

On an unrelated note.

I hate to say it because as much as I disagree with a lot of when kevin says, I think it's unfair when lurkers such as me take pot-shots at him...but I have to wonder what your attitude would be towards a "count the rings" argument circa. 2003...unless you had your tongue in your cheek, in which case I apologize

-Matt Stairs to New York Mets for Ruben Tejada (SS/2B) or Steve Clyne (RHP). The Mets can always use an extra bat for the stretch run. Tejada and Clyne are both raw prospects with some upside. Can’t expect any more for a 40yrs old vet on pace to hit 20HR’s.

Why would the Mets want Stairs?

Tejada wouldn't be available for that. You can have Clyne (I'm not a big fan), but not for Stairs.

If the Jays make Halladay available, I'm sure he would fetch quite a haul. Ace with a good contract (drool).

It's very specific, such as:

- Everyone at or above the age of 26yrs old is tradeable (including an exception). By the time this rebuilding is finished, many of these guys will be just ending their prime. I want my core to be approximately the same age.

I like these trade ideas, and I want this guy as Royals GM. He can deal Jimmy Gobble to the Yanks for Ian Kennedy. Why do the Yanks make this deal? Because they don't have a LOOGY in their pen. The Royals could deal Mark Grudzielanek to Colorado for Greg Reynolds because they need a 2B. They could turn around and deal Ross Gload to the Mets to replace Carlos Delgado and give us Fernando Martinez. The Royals farm system could be stocked in no time.

Seriously though, name a time in the last ten years in which a team has dealt its first round pick a year later? You have it happening like four times. No team will deal its first round pick for a couple of decent players.

What's the rule on trading new free agents? i.e. when would Andruw be eligible to be dealt?