Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Sunday, June 07, 2009

Jazayerli: Radical Situations Call For Radical Solutions

I think the Royals should trade for Jeff Francoeur.

Yeah, that Jeff Francoeur. The one that’s become the bane of Atlanta Braves fans and the laughingstock of baseball.

Some players get called “underrated” so much that they become overrated in the process. And for some, the opposite occurs: they get labeled overrated, and that label sticks to them so tightly that the pendulum swings too far the other way.

Once upon a time, the Braves had a right fielder who, like Francoeur, met with immediate acclaim, stepping right into the lineup in mid-season and hitting .281/.304/.459 in 98 games, garnering a few Rookie of the Year votes. Like Francoeur, he was young (22) and considered an all-around talent despite the lack of speed (just one stolen base as a rookie). And like Francoeur, he swung at everything. He walked just eight times all season.

This right fielder struggled terribly the next two seasons, largely because opposing pitchers learned to exploit his impatience at the plate. In his sophomore season, he walked just 17 times in 75 games; in his third year he regressed even more, drawing just 11 walks in 60 games. He hit .235/.277/.354 combined.

The wrinkle is this: after his rookie season, this right fielder was traded, a trade that looked brilliant for the Braves when he struggled over the next two years. The team that traded for him looked like a bunch of morons.

That team was the Kansas City Royals. That player was Jermaine Dye.

Everything that has been written about Jeff Francoeur over the last year could have been written about Dye. I know, because I was the one writing about Dye 12 years ago. The comment I wrote about Dye in the 1999 Baseball Prospectus ended with the line, “His window of opportunity is just about closed.” Yeah, I missed a little with that one. Dye hit .294/.354/.526 for the Royals that year. He also drew 58 walks. Ten years later, he’s still hitting.

Maybe Francoeur learns the strike zone and turns into Dye. If he doesn’t, he still could carve out a career as an overrated but still useful RBI guy, a la Joe Carter. Carter is one of the most overrated baseball players of my lifetime, but he wasn’t a bad player. You could win a world championship with him. Legend has it that he even had a big role to play in one.

Bottom line is this: the rumor du jour is that the Boston Red Sox are interested in Francoeur. Let me repeat that: THE BOSTON RED SOX ARE INTERESTED IN FRANCOEUR. If that isn’t a big flashing neon sign that the public opinion of Francoeur has shifted to the point where he’s now an underpriced commodity, I don’t know what is.

Crispix Attacks Posted: June 07, 2009 at 01:29 PM | 24 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
  Related News: GeneralAtlantaBostonKansas City

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 1 pages
   1. Tripon Posted: June 07, 2009 at 04:45 PM (#3209370)
Trade him for what, David DeJesus?
   2. Crispix Attacks Posted: June 07, 2009 at 04:55 PM (#3209386)
The example given is when the Dodgers got so sick of Jose Offerman that they traded him to the Royals for absolutely nothing. (I seem to remember the same sort of thing happening with Nick Swisher recently...)

A trade of absolutely nothing for Francœur would be a good trade. And the Royals have a good relationship with the Braves, so they could be the team to get him!
   3. Morally Excellent Posted: June 07, 2009 at 04:57 PM (#3209391)
It's an interesting point, of course,, but there is one thing:

Dye, after 1888, was hitting .252/.287/.394, yes -- in 894 PA's.

Frenchy is now hitting .267/.309/.427 in 2,527 PA's.

His numbers are better (90 OPS+ compared to 75) but wow, almost three times the plate appearances.
   4. Tripon Posted: June 07, 2009 at 05:01 PM (#3209394)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/offerjo01.shtml

Offerman has a career 94 OPS+. I don't think you can fault the Dodgers for cutting bait.
   5. puck Posted: June 07, 2009 at 05:12 PM (#3209408)
Offerman has a career 94 OPS+. I don't think you can fault the Dodgers for cutting bait.


I don't think his bat was the problem, it was the 36.5 errors/150 games.
   6. Crispix Attacks Posted: June 07, 2009 at 05:18 PM (#3209412)
Offerman in chronological order:

team         games      PA    OPS+
LAD (6 yrs)    579    2297     87          
KCR 
(3 yrs)    415    1825    108    
BOS 
(4 yrs)    465    2089     90
SEA 
(1 yr)      29      51     81
MIN 
(1 yr)      77     202     96
PHI 
(1 yr)      33      38     67
NYM 
(1 yr)      53      80     70 


So the Dodgers let him go at the wrong time, and the Royals got him at the right time and let him go at the right time. The average of all his career stats doesn't apply.
   7. regfairfield Posted: June 07, 2009 at 05:34 PM (#3209436)
Nothing will ever compare to the joy I had when I learned I'd never have to see Jose Offerman play again.
   8. Jim Wisinski Posted: June 07, 2009 at 05:58 PM (#3209478)
I'm pretty sure a Jeff Francoeur turns into a still crappy player a lot more often than he turns into Jermaine Dye. That's like saying that a team should trade for a soft-tossing pitcher who appears to have lost effectiveness at 32 because Jamie Moyer went on to win 193 more games after looking like that.

Ok, not the best comparison since Francoeur is toolsy and still appears to have the physical capability to break out, but the point stands that failing players continue to fail a lot more often than they suddenly become really good.
   9. Rich Rifkin Posted: June 07, 2009 at 06:03 PM (#3209497)
The decline and fall of Ben Grieve:
21 -- 132
22 -- 123
23 -- 118
24 -- 116
25 -- 103
26 -- 111
27 -- 96
28 -- 103
28 -- 101
28 -- 119
29 -- 74
The decline and fall of Jeff Francoeur:
21 -- 126
22 -- 87
23 -- 103
24 -- 72
25 -- 65
The decline and fall of Marty Cordova:
25 -- 115
26 -- 112
27 -- 90
28 -- 84
29 -- 108
30 -- 65
Followed by the resurrection (steroids?) of Marty Cordova:
31 -- 122
32 -- 105
33 -- 109
   10. catomi01 Posted: June 07, 2009 at 06:04 PM (#3209501)
Nothing will ever compare to the joy I had when I learned I'd never have to see Jose Offerman play again.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2009/05/12/a_dizzying_turn/


John Nathans shares your opinion.
   11. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: June 07, 2009 at 06:07 PM (#3209510)
Dye, after 1888, was hitting .252/.287/.394, yes -- in 894 PA's.

Jermaine Dye is much older than I realized. But, as I remember him coming up, I may also be much older than I realized.

This is very distressing.
   12. jwb Posted: June 07, 2009 at 06:27 PM (#3209547)
John Nathans shares your opinion
Anybody know how the Offerman court case is going?
   13. rdfc Posted: June 07, 2009 at 07:05 PM (#3209598)
The comparison between Dye and Francouer seems a little silly. Dye was a a year and a year and a half younger when Rany wrote about him than Francouer is now, and, as has already been pointed out, had been given way fewer major league at-bats. He also wasn't as extreme a case as Francouer is with regards to his plate discipline. The odds of Francouer suddenly busting out is pretty minimal. Now, it is obvious that Francouer has some talent, and matched up with the right organization he could perhaps be sent down to the minors and right himself, so it might be worthwhile for certain teams to pick him up on the cheap. I don't think the Royals are one of those teams for which that would be worthwhile.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: June 07, 2009 at 07:41 PM (#3209642)
Picking up Francoeur on the cheap would be fine. Putting him on your ML roster would probably be a bad idea.

But it's true. There's Dye. There's MWE's fave Francoeur comp (and current Royal!) Jose Guillen. There's Joe Carter. There's Juan Encarnacion. Lots of guys of Francoeur's ability and style have carved out useful to average ML careers for themselves.

Two issues with Francoeur. He apparently didn't take his demotion last year very well and he seems to have a fairly high opinion of himself. Second, that high opinion of himself had him asking for $4 M in his first year of arbitration, settling at $3.4. So the next two years of Francoeur are gonna cost a team $7 M at least -- more if they give him ML playing time. That's a lot to pay in hopes that he'll turn into something useful.

If you're willing to send him down (and he's willing to work) or if you can non-tender and re-sign at $1-2 M and you aren't giving up anything in trade, then he's worth a gamble.
   15. The District Attorney Posted: June 07, 2009 at 07:42 PM (#3209644)
Kinda futile to discuss a potential trade without any discussion of what one of the teams would be giving up.

TFA actually does do that. First he suggests Jose Guillen. Clearly, this makes sense if the Braves pick up the contract. He says he'd be willing to have the Royals pick up the contract as well. I guess that makes sense too (assuming you've given up on this year, anyway), since the two players have skills in similar areas, but one's a decade younger. One wonders, though, whether they shouldn't try to find a flopped catcher or shortstop instead.

Thinking that the Guillen scenario might be unlikely either way, he continues:
Carlos Rosa, anyone? Rosa’s been hit hard in Omaha, but there’s a bunch of relief prospects in Double-A and below, and I’d be willing to give up any of the non-Disco variety. The Braves took a high-school pitcher drafted in the second round (Eric Cordier) in exhange for Tony Pena Jr; I wonder if they’d take another one – the disappointing Sam Runion – as part of their haul for Francoeur.
I know Rosa had a good ZIPS, which would be enough for me not to want to trade him for Frenchy, given the limited value of the latter. I suppose "a low-minors reliever" is always a safe thing to trade. At that point, you have to flip it around and ask whether Atlanta could trade the former franchise (and still fellated daily by the press) player for a mediocre relief prospect in the low minors, or whether they'd at least want somebody whom someone has heard of.
   16. Crispix Attacks Posted: June 07, 2009 at 07:48 PM (#3209649)
The conventional wisdom here and elsewhere seems to be that Francœur has an inflated opinion of himself and is not willing to admit that he has problems which need to be addressed.

Rany suggests that there may be a problem which is nearly the opposite of that one:

Keep in mind, as much as any player would feel the pressure that comes with being anointed as “The Natural” at age 21, Francoeur must feel it worse. He was born in Atlanta. In the SI article about his rookie season it talks about the razzing he got from his high school buddies who – just three years after graduation – were coming to his games.

As perfect as everything must have been for him when he was playing well, it must be an absolute nightmare now for him to be struggling the way he is, in his hometown, for his favorite team, after being a first-round pick and potential franchise savior just a few short years ago. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that his defensive numbers have collapsed along with his offensive ones. If it was just his offense that deteriorated, you could blame that on a poor approach at the plate. That his performance has declined in every phase suggests that the problem is psychological as much as it is physical.
   17. JPWF13 Posted: June 07, 2009 at 08:00 PM (#3209656)
That his performance has declined in every phase suggests that the problem is psychological as much as it is physical.


I dunno, I assume that when a player declines in every phase IT IS PHYSICAL, rather than mental.
   18. Ignatius J. Reilly Posted: June 07, 2009 at 08:13 PM (#3209661)
I fully endore this "radical solution." I have another solution in mind for Francoeur if Rany's idea doesn't come to fruition.
   19. Tripon Posted: June 07, 2009 at 08:16 PM (#3209663)

I fully endore this "radical solution." I have another solution in mind for Francoeur if Rany's idea doesn't come to fruition.


Make Jeff Francoeur the first player/GM/coach in history?
   20. Ignatius J. Reilly Posted: June 07, 2009 at 08:24 PM (#3209667)
Of the Long Island Ducks? Sure.

I had something else in mind though.
   21. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: June 07, 2009 at 08:25 PM (#3209668)
I had something else in mind though.

Do the words "Soylent" and "Green" factor into your plan?
   22. Barry Gibb Posted: June 07, 2009 at 08:36 PM (#3209673)
I had something else in mind though.

Francoeur's Final Solution?

+1 right here...
   23. Ignatius J. Reilly Posted: June 07, 2009 at 08:38 PM (#3209674)
You guys are getting warmer.
   24. Obi One Kenobi Nil (BFFB) Posted: June 07, 2009 at 08:55 PM (#3209679)
Golden Shaft (ooo er)
Page 1 of 1 pages

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Martin Hemner
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Newsblog'Duk: Tim Lincecum slims down with swim routine, loses appetite for McDonald’s
(281 - 10:43pm, Feb 09)
Last: phredbird

NewsblogWhatever Happened to the Spitball?
(15 - 10:41pm, Feb 09)
Last: McCoy

NewsblogGrantland/Bill James: An Open Letter to the Hall of Fame About Dwight Evans
(20 - 10:35pm, Feb 09)
Last: tfbg9

NewsblogThe Book Blog: MGL: Today on Clubhouse Confidential
(77 - 10:33pm, Feb 09)
Last: villageidiom

NewsblogNYT: Alderson Remakes Needy Mets From Bottom Line Up
(29 - 10:24pm, Feb 09)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogJeff Sullivan: The Worst Team Ever Projected?
(34 - 10:23pm, Feb 09)
Last: Vaux, A.B.D.

NewsblogNY Daily News: Brian Cashman's accused stalker says Yankees GM misled feds on steroid probe
(45 - 10:22pm, Feb 09)
Last: villageidiom

NewsblogOT: NBA Monthly Thread, February 2012
(377 - 10:20pm, Feb 09)
Last: Famous Original Joe C

NewsblogJustice: 5 things that could make the 2012 season a successful one for the Astros
(28 - 10:17pm, Feb 09)
Last: bbc is prejudice bout men

NewsblogFangraphs: Cameron: The 10 Worst Transactions Of The Winter
(82 - 10:10pm, Feb 09)
Last: Cooper Nielson

NewsblogSources: Cubs’ Starlin Castro Accused Of Sexual Assault
(5812 - 10:02pm, Feb 09)
Last: Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot

NewsblogMLB: Hall of Fame worthy? Furthest thing from Schilling's mind
(11 - 10:00pm, Feb 09)
Last: Squash

NewsblogOrioles Scouts Banned from Korea
(2 - 9:31pm, Feb 09)
Last: Voros McCracken, Human Shield

NewsblogStrange Times in Baseball: 1891-1895
(12 - 9:15pm, Feb 09)
Last: AndrewJ

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player : 1969 Discussion
(75 - 9:02pm, Feb 09)
Last: fra paolo

Buy MLB playoff tickets, plus 2011 World Series, 2011 ALCS tickets and NLCS game tickets. We also have Texas Rangers playoff schedule, tickets to Red Sox games and Yankees game tickets. Plus, buy Phillies baseball tickets, Tigers playoff tickets and the biggies like ALDS baseball tickets and 2011 NLDS tickets.

Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats

 

 

 

AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets.

Page rendered in 0.5786 seconds
40 querie(s) executed