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I think that you and I might have different definitions of good food.
I'd also say that big cities have more beautiful people per square mile than rural areas as well. I would think that is indisputable as well.
No, I don't think that's true. Unless what you like happens to be something done really well in your area, and you would prefer a lack of variety.
They have more everything people, right? They probably have more NRA members too.
In order to create that, in the space that is Manhattan, you would no longer have Manhattan. It would be something else.
NYC is what it is -- very crowded; very fast paced; noisy; smelly; heterogenous to an extreme.
I was a well paid, single associate in a NY firm. The people I am talking about were the same -- they had enough money for the City. But they were just not cut out for the sensory overload that is NYC.
Now you're just stating the obvious.
i have lived in apartments and i don't see how that beats your own house
Mowing lawns, shoveling snow, and fixing plumbing/electricity/etc. are somebody else's problem. Also, if you're lucky, you use a lot less power to heat the joint in the winter because of the heat which comes into your apartment from the neighbors.
If this is directed at me, I'd say that half my fellow citizens in Houston are living country in the city.
Houston: Country?
And be a little bit rock 'n' roll, even.
According to New Yorkers it is.
Do you still consider yourself Irish?
edit...yeah "pushy loud and rude" is singular.
In order to create that, in the space that is Manhattan, you would no longer have Manhattan. It would be something else.
NYC is what it is -- very crowded; very fast paced; noisy; smelly; heterogenous to an extreme.
I was a well paid, single associate in a NY firm. The people I am talking about were the same -- they had enough money for the City. But they were just not cut out for the sensory overload that is NYC.
Then we're just talking past each other. My point is that the sort of stresses that you attribute to cultural differences and sensory overload, I'd tend to attribute to far more mundane concerns: Can I pay for our kids' private school tuition(s)? Can I afford two cars and a garage? Can I afford enough space for our kid(s) so that they won't feel they have no privacy? Can I pretty much step out of the house (apartment) and get where I want to without having to worry about all the extraneous BS like parking?
If you know people without worries like that in Manhattan, and they still just get stressed out by the generic problem of crowds and noise**, then I'll agree that they're just not cut out for New York City life. But you've got to compare apples to apples.
I'll get specific: We've got a 4BR/2.5B house on a large lot in suburban DC (Kensington), with room for a pool table and a home-based business, with two cars and off-street parking, and little or no street noise that filters into the house, and our mortgage is just over $850 a month, taxes included. (We've lived here 19 years.) All this requires a very modest income. How much income would it require for the two of us to move to Manhattan and find comparable amenities? And how much more would we have to add to that if we had school aged children?
Knowing all that, we wouldn't move to Manhattan in a million years. But give us the income to afford that sort of a life, and we'd be up there as fast as we could blink. And I don't think we'd be the only ones.
**though if you have enough money you can soundproof any wall
You're not talking about not being able to handle the City. You're talking about a lifestyle that does not really exist in the City, except for the ultra mega rich, who never have to leave their limos. There is a huge difference.
You're only reinforcing my underlying point: It's not about the money; it's about the money. For every outlander who gets freaked out by crowds and noise, a lot more of them get freaked out by financial stress. Some people apparently have no idea of the sticker shock until they actually get to Manhattan and the bills start piling up for expenses that were relatively trivial back home.
who never have to leave their limos.
Nah, we wouldn't need our limos, just our '06 Focus and our '98 Civic. And we'd take the shoes or the subway for nearly everything within the city limits.
You know this, how? When did you live in the City?
Families don't move to the City; they move out of the City.
Long before they reach the point of having a family, they discover if the City is for them, or not.
I think the people trying to live the life you are talking about, never even think about moving to the City in the first place.
You do realize that country folk can live in town right?
If this is directed at me, I'd say that half my fellow citizens in Houston are living country in the city.
Houston: Country?
- some of it yes - like, say, most of north/northwest areas off 290/FM 1960
still a lot of undeveloped land in the actual city (good for dumping bodies)
which i hope is where ed EFF wade and drayton EFF mclane end up
It doesn't look at all like a new Yorker's idea of a city.
You know this, how? When did you live in the City?
Lived on W110th St across from Morningside when I was a kid, absolutely hated having to move from there to DC, and spent many a month there in the 70's mooching off my cousin off Kissena Blvd in Flushing while on business, and going to Manhattan every day and night. I couldn't get enough of it. Thought of moving my book shop there briefly in the early 90's, but once I found out the sort of required overhead and lack of long term leases**, I said the hell with it. There was simply way too much financial risk.
Families don't move to the City; they move out of the City.
Of course they do. The overhead murders them even more than it murders the childless.
Long before they reach the point of having a family, they discover if the City is for them, or not.
And you think that financial projections don't enter into their decision?
I think the people trying to live the life you are talking about, never even think about moving to the City in the first place.
I've thought about it for much of my adult life, but unfortunately the rent controlled apartments don't get handed out for winning baseball trivia contests or pool tournments. There's nothing you've said so far that doesn't largely relate to money, although you seem to be studiously avoiding making the obvious connection.
Again, I'm not saying that for some people, the lack of grass and the hatred of crowds wouldn't drive them away even if they were millionaires. In past decades, there was also (for some people) the fear of crime. And of course most people outside New York wouldn't want to move there, because even beyond financial lacking, there's their jobs, their friends, and plain old force of habit and love for the familiar.
But I'll repeat what I said above: If you could give a million outlanders a way to duplicate their lack of financial stress in their home towns, and a million New Yorkers a chance to have the same amenities anywhere else, but no more, there'd be a lot more satisfaction from the first group than from the second. And you might even say the same thing about Hawaii, though in that case you'd probably have an influx of retirees who love the weather rather than big city mavens.
**Back then I was paying $20 a sq ft for a prime corner location in Bethesda
Bernal, please. No.
But I saw plenty of people move away because they could not handle what living in New York City was like.
Man, that understates it or misunderstands it. The City can be overwhelming to people who are not ready for that environment.
When I went to School in Boston, there were people who felt out of their depth in that "city". They were miserable there. And Boston is not a patch on New York.
The thing is if you really talk to people, friends, acquaintences that leave, cost is a FACTOR, sure. But I've been here 10+ years, and I have to go with Srul on this one, Andy. I've never once heard it as the real root, the deciding factor. It comes up about 3rd or 4th when people start to rattle off reasons. Again, a factor, no doubt. But never the real main reason.
I had relatives who moved out of Manhattan and moved to Queens the second their kids became of school age. My former GF commutes from suburban Philadelphia strictly because of the cost of living difference. She and her husband made the move as soon as their first child turned four. This is not an uncommon phenomenon---and they're both relatively well off and spend much of their time enjoying the New York cultural scene.
People who count the cost like that don't move there in the first place, and never find out if the City is for them or not.
That's simply nuts. They don't move there for the very reason that they can't afford it. If they could afford it they'd move there in a blink.
But I saw plenty of people move away because they could not handle what living in New York City was like.
I don't deny that, and I've said as much. No question that city life isn't for everyone. I just think that for the majority of people who aren't simply set in their little town ways, you're confusing culture clash with financial reality. The demographic trends of Manhattan in the past 15 years scarcely suggest that for those who can afford it, Manhattan isn't a powerful attraction. The problem is that unless you want to live in cramped quarters and spend a huge percentage of your income for a small amount of living space, it's simply not affordable to the vast majority of the people who otherwise would love to live there. You're presenting it as if it's merely some sort of a character issue (if you aren't willing to pay much more to get much less living space, you're not really cityworthy to begin with), which is a bogus way of looking at it.
I'd be interested to know (a) what those people gave as their reasons, and (b) how much those reasons had cost as an underlying factor, acknowledged or not. And then you also have to consider the number of non-New Yorkers who would move there if they could afford to do so without dramatically reducing their previous standard of living. I think that both of you are way underestimating the number of people in that second category. I've been like that most of my life, and I've known plenty of other people like me.
I don't care how much money I had, I would not live in NYC. I might buy a place, to stay there on occasion, left empty while I'm not there, had I the money. Otherwise, no.
Maye this is just me, but the single best quality about San Francisco is that it's San Francisco. I don't really give a #### about trees or fishtanks.
No, I'm not. There are a lot of people who have moved out here, from big Cities, and leave, because this is not for them. It is too isolated, the culture is too insular, they just don't fit in.
Character's got nothing to do with it. It's a matter of what you see as a good, sane life. Plenty of people think that anyone who lives in New York has to be nuts, and they may well be right.
So they never find out if that life is right for them, or not.
I don't know how to break this to you, but these people are actually living and working in NYC. You can be one of those snobs who looks down his nose at that "B&T" crowd, but as long as you are only a subway ride from downtown, you are living in New York City. You spend most 80% of your waking life in Manhattan. The ones I am talking about leave because they can't stand that, regardless of where they lay their head down at night.
The other big thing I miss. Everything is a chain, which usually translates into bland. Bland isn't always bad but if it is all you have it sucks. Even the places that advertise "home cooking" are bland, over salted, trays of food that were probably shipped 50 miles to get here. The biggest thing that I had to get over is the poor quality of meat here, I have yet to see a steak that is worth my time. Funny thing is, I have meet a couple of people who grew up in towns of 400 (give or take) who agree with me on the beef. They get all theirs from people who they know from home.
When I move again it will be to a large city (top 10 metro area) or a small town where the know good food because they are the growers. I have hated living in the in between areas.
But you can't get good food in the country.
As for other cusines there is a town about 15 minutes from here that has one of the best Hungarian restaurants outside of Budapest, one of the premiere gourmet markets is 30 minutes away and of course Cleveland is a 45 minute drive. For fresh seafood I can pickup perch or walleye. Oh and I live about 3 minutes away from a butcher that sells organic grass fed beef and pork and free range chicken and eggs. Also the local dairy offers non-homogonized mild, still delivered in glass bottles if you like.
Other than that you can't get good food out here.
I live in Manhattan now, and cost is a huge, huge issue. I have a great apartment that I had to wait eighteen years for, where I pay an outrageously low monthly rate for a large studio apartment. Much as I'd want to be here, if I were to be paying market rate for even a studio apartment, I would be unable to afford the cost of living. It's still tight because everything is more expensive here.
Cost was, for a large portion of my working life, the only reason not to live in Manhattan.
But I saw plenty of people move away because they could not handle what living in New York City was like.
I've seen people move away because they didn't want to live in the city, but most of them move away because they get married and have children, and/or because they want to own rather than rent. I will never really need more space than I have now for just me, but this would be very tight living quarters for two people, and exceptionally tight for a family with children.
You do food contracts?
I have no doubt that you can eat very well where you live. I also have no doubt that your dining options do not even approach what I have in San Francisco in terms of general quality, variety of price points, variety of cuisines, etc. I would imagine your town does not have gourmet French taco trucks, Michelin-starred restaurants, Japanese restaurants that fly 100% of their fish in from Tsukiji, a dozen Italian places that cure all of their own salumi and make all of the pasta fresh daily, zillions of reasonably authentic taquerias, or this place, or this place, or even this place.
I am envious of the non-homogonized milk. (Actually, we have that too, even in the glass bottle, but it is beastly expensive.)
This is a stupid argument to be having. You eat better in large cities. Food is another of those cultural options that cities just indisputably have (more movie theaters, concerts, book stores, ethnic variety, etc etc).
The country has indisputable advantages too.
It's a hell of a lot easier to impress women.
edit: and Gary Danko's is my favorite restaurant in the city. I've never tried that ice cream. I always go to Bi-Rite or 3 twins.
How is it?
They key is to find the restaurants where the Asian population eats. Surprisingly enough Akron has a sizeable Asian (Chinese and Vietnamese being the most numerous) population. The place I frequent is always chock full of these two groups.
As for perch, it makes great fish and chips. Find a decent beer batter recipe and have at it.
Also the town I live in has around 2000 people and the county has just over 110,000.
You can actually carry stuff. (I mean, I guess you can rent a car every week to go grocery shopping, but that seems sort of inefficient, don't you think?)
You can avoid weather, instead of standing at a bus stop in a downpour waiting for the train, or walking many blocks from the subway stop to your destination in the heat or snow.
You can actually have children -- something New Yorkers and San Franciscans don't do, I know -- without having to try to lug a stroller around on public transportation.
EDIT: Oh, and you can live far away from other people.
You are so not going to be able to handle the post-apocalypse.
I've lived in several cities without a car and did fine. My parents lived in Manhattan untile they died earlier this decade. they neither had a car nor starved. By the time my mom had to rely on delivery, you wouldn't have wanted her in a car.
but you've probably never seen or heard of a shopping cart.
#### you.
You're going to be waiting a long time before the train pulls up to the bus stop.
Oh, and you can live far away from other people.
Keeping these antisocial creeps away from other people is one of the greatest functions that the country serves. Nobody wants Ted Kaczynski living in the apartment upstairs.
I'm not in the habit of defending David, but I believe he was enlisting sarcasm here.
That's cool. Lots of people can't hack it.
A point which if you bothered to read more than one sentence per post you would have noted that I acknowledged several times already, in fact once in the paragraph directly above the one you just responded to. And since you're obviously worn out from all that go-carting you do around your Big Box mall, I'll even spare you the trouble and quote it again for you:
You can now proceed to consult your Book of Canned Responses and accuse me of "changing the subject," but a better idea might be for you to just recline in your motorized La-Z-Boy and watch a replay of the Orioles game. Anything to soothe your jangled nerves and increase your attention span. And Good Night and Good Luck.
(I don't care that some people like cities; I acknowledge that and it's fine with me. I fully acknowledge that my opposite view is merely personal preference. It's just those people's notion that city life is somehow objectively superior to suburban life that irks me. And Andy's version -- well, people would like cities more if they had more money -- is no less silly.)
Oh, and San Francisco has the lowest children per capita in the country.
That's because everybody who lives there is a homosexual, duh.
See post 29: "But the biggest category of [people who aren't meant for New York] would just be the ones who don't earn enough to stay ahead... The only problem with New York is being able to afford the sort of amenities (like owning a car or finding a big enough place to spread out) that you can take for granted nearly anywhere else."
Or post 99: "Of course there are always people who just aren't cut out for big city life, but I'd bet a fair amount that there are more people who would move to New York in a minute if they knew in advance that they could take the same amenities for granted that they could back where they came from."
Or post 123: "Then we're just talking past each other. My point is that the sort of stresses that you attribute to cultural differences and sensory overload, I'd tend to attribute to far more mundane concerns:"
Or post 128: "You're only reinforcing my underlying point: It's not about the money; it's about the money. For every outlander who gets freaked out by crowds and noise, a lot more of them get freaked out by financial stress."
Or post 138: "That's simply nuts. They don't move there for the very reason that they can't afford it. If they could afford it they'd move there in a blink.... I just think that for the majority of people who aren't simply set in their little town ways, you're confusing culture clash with financial reality."
Or post 139: "I'd be interested to know (a) what those people gave as their reasons, and (b) how much those reasons had cost as an underlying factor, acknowledged or not. And then you also have to consider the number of non-New Yorkers who would move there if they could afford to do so without dramatically reducing their previous standard of living. I think that both of you are way underestimating the number of people in that second category. I've been like that most of my life, and I've known plenty of other people like me."
mmmm, half credit.
Orioles finish a season above .500.
Since we're all being nosy here anyway, why aren't you paying market rate?
I'm not trying to be snarky, and I'd love it if you are an EMT or a hospice worker or you counsel AIDS patients.
Geesh, just re-read that, and it seems snarky.
I never did understand underpriced Manhattan apartments, though. I just knew a lot of people who knew somebody, so they had plenty of money to pay a lot more, but their rent was subsidized decades ago for some other family member for some unknown reason.
"tradition," it seemed.
I better understood the idea of subsidizing some people's rent - 85-yr-old war veterans being my favorite target audience (and sure, the 84-year-old widow instead who kept the home fire burning in a tough spot), thank you for risking your lives for us, seriously - than the people who actually got the subsidies, and why they should be able to pass it on to someone who doesn't have such sterling credentials but is just related to someone who was.
And obviously I make no claims as to the background of the original comment, I have no idea about those circumstances.
Presumably, it's a Mitchell-Lama place and his income qualified.
As Srul said, families don't move into the city; they move out of the city, usually right before or soon after they have kids. Part of that is for space reasons (for which cost is a factor); part of it is that they want a house/yard/etc. to raise a family.
I don't really understand Andy's point; people who move out of the city are spending just as much money on the cost of living as they were before, from what I can tell. That is, people live up to their means, generally speaking. It's not like their cost of living was X in NYC but now it's 0.5X in the suburbs; people will choose a location and house in the suburbs that is at a cost they are comfortable with - just like in NYC. People will be apprehensive about their cost of living anywhere, if it's higher than they're comfortable with.
Horseshit. Nieporent has to be even more wingnutty, and he gets on fine in NY. You know, moar Roarkian skyscrapers to admire, moar homeless people to spit on. I suspect Gothamites' reputation for insufferable conceitedness inevitably appeals to sociopaths who believe they are teh 133t35t of teh 133t (iow, Epsilon level pooptards who believe they are World Controllers). Berkman should fit right in, if not immediately then with time. OTOH, Rolen, according to rumor, is about as nuttily Randroidianite as Leonard Peikoff, Alan Greenspan, or, well, David Nieporent, but for some reason I can't see *him* doing well in NY, so who knows.
The kind where you have to walk anywhere in the rain, apparently.
Didn't exactly seem like a deer in the headlights, lol.
I do enjoy the insights of posters from all directions who have never met any of the subculture (beyond an autograph session) and draw any conclusions.
Not a shot at anyone.
A generalization.
It makes me physically ill to defend someone as loathsome as Pearlman, but the extrapolations people were making from his innocuous blog item is mindboggling.
"But he doesn’t belong in a big nothern city. He’s a country dude; a Texan through and through. That said, I hope it goes well. I really do."
Wow, why would anyone conclude from that the author had any question whatsoever that Berkman might not thrive in this 'nothern city'?
lol
The peaches, that's true. The pork and beef? Probably not....Your supermarket appears to buy its pork from "Farmland Foods"-a company based out of Kansas City.
Because in the very same paragraph he said it was an excellent addition. If he really thought Berkman could not thrive in the big city, I don't see how he could call it an excellent pickup.
As for his hopes, just because he believes Berkman can perform in New York doesn't mean he's certain he will, just as none of us can be certain that Berkman will perform well in his time with the Yankees, in much the same way he hasn't thrived this year in Houston. Not because of some difficulty of handling New York, which he never even hinted at. He simply wished him well.
He just doesn't think Berkman is a New York kind of guy, and as this thread has demonstrated, there are a lot of people who aren't New York kinds of guys.
Not a shot at anyone.
Passive/aggressive!
Come on, that's nothing if NOT a shot.
It makes me physically ill to defend someone as loathsome as Pearlman, but the extrapolations people were making from his innocuous blog item is mindboggling.
The #### Pearlman's written, no one can be blamed for ascribing the least common denominator to his intent at this point. And rather than be petulant about it, he ought to consider learning something. Also, I will now flap my arms and fly to the moon.
Agreed. Though I was ready to throw the computer out of the window until they pulled it out.
Damn, those Rays are good. It seems like every time I look up, they are winning, and often coming from behind. This one [division race] goes the distance [screw the wild card]. I like the recent Yankee pick ups, it makes for one hell of a bench, and I'll take Kerry Glass, err, Wood, over Chan Whore Park, but I think they are going to wish they picked up another starter before it is all over.
Probably not nearly as much as they want.
The Rays are fabulous, and these last two games have been like watching the first two Ali-Frazier fights on successive nights. At this point, the last two months of the AL East could wind up as maybe the best three team race ever. You can never count the Red Sox out until you drive a wooden stake through their Transylvanian heart.
I like the recent Yankee pick ups, it makes for one hell of a bench, and I'll take Kerry Glass, err, Wood, over Chan Whore Park, but I think they are going to wish they picked up another starter before it is all over.
I agree, but if Pettitte returns at full strength he should be rested for the postseason, and with the fourth starter only really necessary for one game each in the LCS and the WS (assuming they can make it past the first round), the bullpen depth in October will be greater than it was last year.
Here's a line from today's game story in the Times that pretty much summarizes the state of the haves and the have-nots in baseball, once and forever, but especially today. Even as we relish the marvels of the AL East race, it's hard not to feel for the BBC's and the Nieporents of the world when you read comments like this:
Huh? How rural are we talking about here? Are we talking so rural that democratci public works projects don't even reach you or are we simply talking somewhere in Iowa? About the only way meat, dairy, and produce is fresher and of better quality is if you raise it yourself or go right to the source to pick it up and even then that doesn't mean it will be fresher or better. For instance nobody eats freshly killed beef and nobody would really want too so being 10 miles from the slaughterhouse is rather pointless. Same with hogs and sheep. Bacon isn't exactly freshly killed pork product. As for produce the difference in age between rural produce and produce bought in the city is around 24 to 48 hours and that is about it. A carror doesn't degrade in quality in that time nor does an onion and virtually any other produce that is grown in the United States. Dairy? About the only advantage the rural area might have on the big city is someone handing out unpasteurized milk or making a cheese with it and giving it out. Otherwise, once again there isn't a hell of a lot of difference between rural dairy and city dairy. Yeah sure one can say your products are better than say Wal-mart products but the beauty of the big city is that Wal-Mart is not the only option. You can go to niche shops and upscale shops and buy the best or the unique or the gourmet and for the most part you don't have to drive all over the county to do it.
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