It's precious that Jim thinks that Manny wouldn't have been an upgrade.

I'd think that Ortiz, Lowell, Beckett and Pedroia might be able to sneak in, too. Yaz 'n Youk is the most interesting one.

Wow, what a delusional jackass.

What an a$$hole.

Give me a break. He hints that today's players are selfish, somehow missing the irony of saying that in the midst of a completely self-serving screed.

Let's see:

The 2007 Red Sox had an advantage at 2B and 3B and were a wash at LF, RF and 1B. But they also had an advantage at closer, set-up man, and at least 2 of the starting pitching slots. 2007 Beckett was considerably better than anyone he Red Sox could throw out there. Matsusaka was better than Wise. Wakefield and Lee were pretty much a wash. The back end of the rotation was better too.

I wonder what prrovoked this out of Rice?

“I’m tired of people saying, ‘Manny being Manny,’” Rice said. “It’s not like I’d take my 11-year old kid to go out and watch ‘Manny being Manny,’ that’s not baseball.

I wonder if he'll be taking his 22-year-old kid out to upstate New York to watch Manny Being First Ballot?

I wonder what prrovoked this out of Rice?

Hey, it worked for Gossage.

It looks like the Red Sox did lose on the day Jim Rice hit his 301st HR.

Box Score.

Plus Jim being Jim...he flied out to end the 7-4 game with the two runners on base...in a wacky DP setting.

He's tired of people saying stuff? He's just tired. Way to shoot your 2.8% in the mouth, Jimbo. Go throw down another Paxiltini and shut your poophole. My first glove was a Jim Rice model Rawlings. Think I'll go chop off my hand.

'75 v. '07
C Fisk over Varitek
1B Yaz over Youkilis (based on reputation; they were about equal)
2B Pedroia over Doyle/Griffin
3B Lowell over Petrocelli
LF Rice over Manny (just because Manny had about his worst season)
CF Lynn over Crisp
RF Evans over Drew
DH Ortiz over Cooper/Carbo

Lineup 5-4 '75

Rotation:
1. Beckett
2. Matsuzaka
3. Lee
4. Wise or Tiant
5. Schilling

I figure the innings that the '75 guys threw made up for some of the differences in ERA+, but it would be hard to keep the '07 team's top three out of the rotation. I can't believe that Rice would really believe that Beckett would not be in the rotation.

Bullpen:
1. Papelbon
2. Okajima
3. Lopez
4. Burton
5. Timlin
6. Drago (or Snyder)

The bullpen isn't even close. This is a huge advantage for the '07 team. Lefty Jim Burton was the only one on the '75 team to pitch well enough to be considered, and the '07 team had a couple of lefties that were better.

I wonder what prrovoked this out of Rice?

What makes you think he needed to be provoked? This is just your basic bitter old guy saying the game was better in my day, my teammates were better than these guys now etc etc.

And I have no doubt he really believes what he's saying, just as I have no doubt that Frankie Frisch truly believed that every ex-teammate he rammed through the Vets committee and into the HOF was deserving.

This is just your basic bitter old guy saying the game was better in my day, my teammates were better than these guys now etc etc.

Oh, so you were able to figure that out while sitting like a slug typing away at your computer?

You should be a soothsayer. You could make yourself a good 10 or 15 dollars a day at that.

Criminy, Suff. You're putting Burton 4th??? You ever see that dude pitch? he wasn't even as good as DelCarmen.

I think it would be interesting if we had another situation where the Veterans Committe actually makes sins of commission rather than sins of omission.

Say Jim Rice was the chairman of the Veterans Committee, and managed to rule it with an iron hand. Who would become the new crop of Hall of Famers? Fred Lynn? Luis Tiant? Dwight Evans? Bruce Hurst? Rich Gedman? Bernie Carbo? Bob Stanley, the Jesse Haines of his generation?

This is just your basic bitter old guy saying the game was better in my day,

stages of aging: (or feeling like you're aging)

1. ballplayers are younger than you

2. cops are younger than you

3. doctors are younger than you

4. bitter old ballplayers are younger than you

sheesh

This is just your basic bitter old guy saying the game was better in my day,

Don't sell Jim Ed short. He could be pretty bitter when he was young too.

Oh, so you were able to figure that out while sitting like a slug typing away at your computer?

Kev, kev, you're pissier than usual today? Didn't get a good night's sleep?
The Sox are 5.5 games up on the Yankees, whatever could be wrong?


Seriously, did you really meet Nieporent in person? And no one got hurt?

What is funny is I recall Rice being called selfish and viewed much how he views Manny (yes, I'm closing in on 40). Also recall people asking old Red Sox about that team and saying how the mid-70's Red Sox weren't as good as (name a team from 20+ years earlier).

Some things are 100% predictable. Old ballplayers complaining about the kids today not being able to hold their jockstraps (ugh, what an image) is just one of the big ones.

Criminy, Suff. You're putting Burton 4th??? You ever see that dude pitch?

No. I was going by the stats. (I was a year shy of birth in '75.) He had a good year in '75. If you were going to go by "stuff," my guess is that at least among relievers, current guys are going to at least LOOK better, because of the velocity and what not.

I assume you're just using the stats for that season, right? Otherwise, I'm not sure I get the Yaz = Youks equation I see above and have seen elsewhere.

C Fisk over Varitek

While Fisk is of course a better ballplay than Varitek, he missed half the year in 1975. Is 79 games of .331/.395/.529 150 OPS+ better than 131 games of .255/.367/.421 103 OPS+? On the other hand, Fisk was there for the WS, but on the other other hand, Rice was not. So, either Tek/Pudge is a push, or Manny creams Juan Beniquez.

1. ballplayers are younger than you
2. cops are younger than you
3. doctors are younger than you
4. bitter old ballplayers are younger than you

5. some of your kids' teachers are clearly too young to be out of high school

I assume you're just using the stats for that season, right? Otherwise, I'm not sure I get the Yaz = Youks equation I see above and have seen elsewhere.

Either that or a three year window view
Yaz from 1974-76 was a 140- 111- 120 OPS+ so his 1975 talent level was what? 125?
Youks from 2006-08 106-117-139 (1/3 season of 139) 115 OPS from 2006-08

Youks may be a better fielder at 1b than Yaz was from 1974-75.

So Youks in his age 27-29 prime is pretty close to the player Yaz was post-prime ages 34-36 (Yaz from ages 27-29 just completely blows Youks out of the water though)

I remember a great Bill James piece where he strings together quotes of old guys saying how much better bbaseball was in their day, all the way back to the 1880's! Apparently, the 1880's ballplayers couldn't hold a candle to the tough ex-Civil War supermen of the late 1860's.

Also, the 1975 Red Sox outscored their opponents by 87 runs, the 2007 Red Sox by 210. Since the 2007 Red Sox were much better relative to their time, Rice must believe that that the quality of play has completely collapsed over the last 30 years. What a jerk. I hope he doesn't get his undeserved 1.7%.

I wonder what prrovoked this out of Rice?

I thought Rice had always been seen as a surly, bitter, selfish type guy, so I assumed this kind of stuff coming from him would surprise no one as he ages.

“The only one that would’ve made it, maybe (Jonathan) Papelbon,” Rice said. “Because we had Dick Drago out there, Papelbon has a little more velocity than him.

In the James thing Blackadder mentions, James quotes Joe Dugan as saying pretty much the same thing about the '32 and '78 Yankees. I think Munson was the only Bronz Zooer Dugan had in the lineup...

In the James thing Blackadder mentions, James quotes Joe Dugan as saying pretty much the same thing about the '32 and '78 Yankees. I think Munson was the only Bronz Zooer Dugan had in the lineup

Well, in fairness to Dugan, it wasn't their talent that would have kept Reggie Jackson and Willie Randolph off the 1932 Yankees.

Also, the 1975 Red Sox outscored their opponents by 87 runs,

Outplayed their Pythag by 7.... never knew that...
I do recall thinking at the time that they were totally outclassed by the Big Red Machine

But that's not fair, the mid 70s Reds were monsters.

The 70s gave me my first real impression of how baseball was, how it should be played, and how winning teams should be built.

Reds bludgeoned teams into submission with offense, kept Team pitching and defense respectable.

My team, the Mets, were built on pitching and defense, couldn't get out of 80 wins, and when the frontline pitching collapsed (was traded away) the team collapsed to 95 losses and stayed there.

I could never understand fellow Met fans who kept parroting the "pitching and defense win championships" line, I had grown up observing that philosophy was wrong, maybe if I was old enough to have paid attention to 1969 I'd think differently, but no, I grew up thinking: "Bid Red Machine model works, Pitching and Dee can get you to 3rd place".

Obviously in the mid 80s I loved Davey Johnson.

“But I think today’s players would probably say, ‘I’m playing for the Hall of Fame.’ But I say, ‘I played for the Boston Red Sox.’

I just can't picture anyone saying that. Here's John Smoltz, for instance:

"What didn't sit well with me," he said, "is when everyone tried to justify [closing] as my ticket to the Hall of Fame. I kept trying to say over and over again, 'I don't care about that, or about setting up standards so I can make it.' All I ever cared about was having another ring on my finger."

espn.com

1. ballplayers are younger than you
2. cops are younger than you
3. doctors are younger than you
4. bitter old ballplayers are younger than you

5. some of your kids' teachers are clearly too young to be out of high school

6. the president is younger than you.

if obama makes it, that applies to me.

Some things are 100% predictable. Old ballplayers complaining about the kids today not being able to hold their jockstraps (ugh, what an image) is just one of the big ones.

Yeah. That's why I don't find this newsworthy. Maybe Rice pissed Repoz off at CBGBs or something. That might explain the ongoing Rice obsession, but Rice doesn't seem like a CBGBs guy.

5. some of your kids' teachers are clearly too young to be out of high school

Hell, that happened to me when I was in high school.

I swear, she looked just like anyone else in the room, maybe a senior.

6. the president is younger than you.

Ah, the factor McCain is counting on to win this fall. Few voters are older than him and the voters between his and Obama's age are the crew most likely to vote.

Mandatory baseball content...
Obama was born August 4th, 1961 - the same year as Andres Galarraga, Don Mattingly, Rick Aguilera, and Jimmy Key (among others).
McCain was born August 29th, 1936 - the same year as Harmon Killebrew, Frank Howard, Bill Mazeroski, and Don Drysdale (among others).

The year Obama was born we saw 61 HR hit for the first time. The year McCain was born we saw Babe Ruth inducted into the Hall of Fame.

what about people who share their birthdays with McCain and Obama.

for McCain you have Oswalt, Rowand, Doug Decinces....not really much there.

For Obama you have Roger Clemens, Dallas Green, Jake Beckley... a little better line there. :)

#1 should be the Playmate of the Month is younger than you

CFB, given that list, I'd choose McCain. I mean, Clemens and Dallas Green? Frightening. Give me bland over that anyday.

I swear, she looked just like anyone else in the room, maybe a senior.

Did you hit it?

I swear, she looked just like anyone else in the room, maybe a senior.

Are you Luis Polonia?

Are you Luis Polonia?

In this scenario, isn't Sample Size is the anti-Polonia.

5. some of your kids' teachers are clearly too young to be out of high school
6. The frightening, trying-to-look-15-years-younger-than-she-is blond from Sex In The City is younger than you are.

In the James thing Blackadder mentions, James quotes Joe Dugan as saying pretty much the same thing about the '32 and '78 Yankees. I think Munson was the only Bronz Zooer Dugan had in the lineup...

Guidry was the other, and he claimed both would be in the bullpen.

what about people who share their birthdays with McCain and Obama.

for McCain you have Oswalt, Rowand, Doug Decinces....not really much there.

For Obama you have Roger Clemens, Dallas Green, Jake Beckley... a little better line there. :)

Neither of them do anything for the All Presidents team. Best hope is that McCain chooses Condi Rice for VP and then dies in office.

In the saddle?

With Condi?

Now THERE's an image.

Bob Stanley, the Jesse Haines of his generation?

Jesse Haines, hell. Bob Stanley was more like the Syl Johnson of his generation.

Is it because he's black?

... now THIS is the bitter, loathing Jm Rice that I grew up with.

I just can't picture anyone saying that.

Yeah, me neither. It's like one of those Albert Belle jokes or something.

This is surprising coming out of Rice because a) he is currently employed as an analyst for the Red Sox network, and b) he is usually incredibly bland in his analysis. A lot of talk about how it feels to do this, or what to look for in that situation, and a whole lot of platitudes. He will occasionally make an "in my day" type remark, but nothing even close to this.

And, of course, he's not even close to right. He looks downright delusional, in fact. Comparing stats, of course, misses Rice's point, because he's saying that the whole league was better, making it tougher to put up stats. But guys are bigger and stronger now. They throw harder and work at their game year round. They take steroids for crying out loud!

#1 should be the Playmate of the Month is younger than you

Yep, I remember that one being a big deal to me when I was 19 and looking through some magazines. Rich Garces was the first player younger than me in the majors and that was nearly a year later.

of course another step in the realizing aging cycle is when there is nobody older than you currently in baseball

of course another step in the realizing aging cycle is when there is nobody older than you currently in baseball

Well, I've still got Jamie Moyer.

The first player younger than me played his last game nearly 13 years ago.

I do recall thinking at the time that they were totally outclassed by the Big Red Machine

WTF? The series was one of the most closely fought ever.

Criminy. Talk about being clueless.

wasn't Rice playing in the era of the reputed "25 players, 25 taxicabs" era?

a bad day for the Rice man

#1 should be the Playmate of the Month is younger than you

Yep, I remember that one being a big deal to me when I was 19 and looking through some magazines. Rich Garces was the first player younger than me in the majors and that was nearly a year later.

And Garces had bigger tits than the Playmate, too!

I do recall thinking at the time that they were totally outclassed by the Big Red Machine

WTF? The series was one of the most closely fought ever.

Well, it was a reasonable belief before the series started. The Reds had gone 108-54, following seasons of 95, 99 and 98 victories in what was generally considered the better league . The Red Sox, in contrast, had gone 95-65, but were an 84-win team the season before. And, as was noted above, their pyth record wasn't very impressive (not that pyth existed at the time, but you could certainly glean an impression about a team's strength without knowing the exact runs scored-runs allowed totals).

Obviously, the World Series was a great one. But the belief going into that series that the Reds were the superior team was not unfounded.

Frankly, I had the same feeling before the 86 series. The Sox were certainly in a great position to win that one too, but I never thought they were actually better than that Mets team (and looking it up, the Mets-Reds had identical W-L records, while the sets of Red Sox teams were comparative W-L records were separated by a half-game. Weird).

Nice post, SoSH. Actually, when you think about it, the Sox from 1919 to 2003 were very unlucky in their World Series opponents. Three of the opponents (1946 Cardinals, 1967 Cardinals, 1975 Reds) were great teams--even by World Series standards--in the middle of a sustained period of dominance, while the fourth, the 1986 Mets, may well have been if other issues had not derailed them. Given the circumstances, the Red Sox WS performance over these years was actually pretty impressive.