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Pretty loose definition of a couple:
2008 8 (currently leads team)
2006 10
2003 12
2001 18
1998 14
1997 16
Honorable mention:
2005 11 (finished third behind Matt Clement and Bronson Arroyo and their huge sliders)
2004 16 (finished second to Bronson Arroyo)
Most other years he wasn't a full time starter, but still plunked a fair few guys.
???
Ok, he's Jewish. I don't know what that guy was talking about.
I don't deny any of that. The point was that Wakefield has contributed mightily to Boston's HBP totals over the last decade. As have pitchers like Arroyo, Clement, and Derek Lowe who all got tons of movement on the ball and tended to hit quite a few batters. I think looking at team totals for HBPs and concluding that Boston is unusually prone to headhunting is a mistake. The stats don't tell the full story because they don't distinguish between intentional and unintentional HBPs.
Using my earlier example, Gilligan and his friends had to learn how to construct shelters and seek food in ways that they had previously not needed to know. Similarly, like Little Buddy himself, when I find myself in a situation that requires a knowledge of automobile driving, I shall learn. Until then, why bother? I can do other things with my time that seem more pleasant.
Not all of us. Some of us are one-trick ponies, continuing the same tired schtick over and over, while living in denial of things that have been said and done in the past.
And bus drivers. I would make an allowance for delivery trucks between certain hours.
Some of us are Colonels.
rLr, have you learned how to wipe yourself yet? Or is that an optional skill as well? After all, since you spend all your time in your room posting in the Lounge, nobody will notice how much you stink.
Please advise.
Fortunately, we are not all so full of #### as you, kevin.
We also live in a studio apartment.
We also live in a studio apartment.
A studio? My guess is that your rent is $2500/mo.
I own the apartment. Total costs are about 1200 bucks. It's a steal.
Wow. You must really be getting screwed on your house payment if rLr's makes you want to puke.
(Unless you are just kidding and know that already)
In fairness, there are a few others here like that, but rLr isn't one of them.
Yeah, but he's not Greek, he's Jewish, unless he's a Greek Jew (do they exist?). I guess I thought the whole point of the "Greek god of walks" thing, was thathe was, you know, Greek. Now it doesn't make nearly as much sense.
There are Greek Jews, but he's of Romanian Jewish background. The story goes that one of his forebears adopted a Greek name to deflect unwanted attention from the nasty Cossacks.
And invite unwanted attention from the player ID algorithm at bb-ref.com.
The Yankees sure did get their heads beat in. ;-
Wow, you are by far my favorite poster here. Amazing.
Especially when Angel Hernandez has been behind the plate.
He pitched about as well as you'd expect.
Sorry to bring this back up, hours later, but I just saw it.
Are you completely ####### insane? What ethnic slur are you talking about? "Kikko" is slang, like "son" "kid" whatever. But I promise* in the future to only use the Queen's English, so you don't get your panties in a bunch all over again. You and Youkilis certainly deserve each other.
*I don't actually promise this at all. Go #### yourself, SON.**
**I did not actually father Scott. Thank God.
Let's ask some unbiased folks - perhaps the Tampa Bay Rays. Outside of Boston, I believe most folks don't believe the Red Sox or their followers have much standing to complain about hit batters or close pitches.
Just a man in knickers looking to take offense.
here here and here
I apologize I've been unable to keep the spelling consistent; it's as if the language just has a life of its own...
robinred:
Me again:
Hey, just because I thought it might be the worst thread in the history of the site doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it immensely.
Although it would be better if there weren't so many stupid, lazy kikkos posting here.
So in your opinion the fact that some Red Sox pitchers have hit batters and/or thrown knockdown pitches in the past justifies a Yankee pitcher throwing at a Red Sox player's head, or at least invalidates any right for Red Sox fans to object to said action. Is that a fair statement?
So in your opinion the fact that some Red Sox pitchers have hit batters and/or thrown knockdown pitches in the past justifies a Yankee pitcher throwing at a Red Sox player's head, or at least invalidates any right for Red Sox fans to object to said action. Is that a fair statement?
Strictly speaking, the only fans with any "standing" to complain about beanball wars would be fans of Amnesty International. Red Sox fans who cheered Pedro when he plunked Jeter and A-Rod don't have any right to complain about Joba, and Yankee fans like myself who defended Joba have zero standing to complain about Hansen's obvious attempt to cripple A-Rod yesterday. We all "know what we saw," but we also don't have any idea of what was inside a pitcher's head. The law of averages says that any given pitch can sail out of control, and who's to say that any given pitch was aimed at a batter?
Face it, folks, it's like a tribal war. There are few agreed upon "rules" in tribal wars. So if you don't speak out when your own pitchers start something, don't whine when your heroes get caught in the crossfire. That's simple Ethics 101.
We've had this discussion before. "Beanball wars"=bad. "Teat for tat hit batsmen" (arm, torso, backside)= acceptable.
As if you know that Joba was trying to bean a batter who's famous for claiming the inside of the plate, rather than merely trying to disrupt his rhythm by forcing him back where he belonged (which he obviously did quite well).
As if every pitch winds up exactly where it was intended.
As if what Hansen did yesterday couldn't have easily put A-Rod out for the season.
As if you would have gone beyond a Seinfeldian "that's a shame" if that had happened.
And as if you ever complained when those relative Yanks-Sox HBP totals a couple of years ago were approaching Cowboys vs Indians proportions.
We could go back and forth on this all day like a bunch of Palestinians and West Bank settlers, but the bottom line is that these things happen in baseball, and only the umpires have it in their power to do anything about it. And neither fan base has a speck of standing to complain.
No, I'm pretty sure they're all Yankees fans.
So you're getting the full dose of kevin?
Everyone on both sides (well, perhaps everyone other than crazyman Coco Crisp!) gets that there's retaliation and brushbacks. Only Joba seems to think throwing at someone's head is part of that, though
If we focus on the problem with what Joba is doing (location) we'll do a lot better than this discussion next time.
First, I was quoting the Boston Globe's own writer. But more than that, anyone who's ever played baseball, as I'm sure you have, knows that the surest way to skull a batter is NOT by throwing at his head, but by throwing behind him, and at approximately shoulder level. Which fits the description of Hansen's pitch far better than it fits Joba's.
Even if you grant that the Globe's description was incorrect---in fact even more if you make that concession---Hansen's pitch was far more likely to result in a serious injury to A-Rod than Joba's pitch was likely to cause injury to Youk. The only reason that Youk came so close to being hit was that he was leaning into the pitch. Otherwise he could have easily avoided it with little effort. A-Rod's instincts in the way he moved his head and body were the instincts of every batter, and he was very lucky he didn't get a season-ending shattered elbow.
But as I said, and as Damon pointed out, these duels are an inevitable part of baseball. It's been going on since the beginning of fast pitching, and it's never, ever going to end. And the Red Sox aren't innocent little lambs in all this any more than any other team.
Here's how Wok would've handled Joba.
I only picked out that bit because it was the lowest hanging of all these excuses. But all of the other excuses are nearly as laughable. One guy has thrown at a guy's head 3 times. The other, in the midst of an inning where he could not find the plate, hit someone on the arm. It's ridiculous to compare these on anything near equal terms. For one, there is legitimate evidence of intent, for the other there isn't. One is considered a normal part of baseball, the other is not.
The pitch is not at ARod's head, but it's only barely below his neck. To me, that's definitely unacceptable, just like Chamberlain's headhunting of Youkilis.
pkb is absolutely right - throwing at the head is one thing, throwing at the bum is another. Chamberlain's been a violent punk, but so was Hansen.
Joba is the only player on the Yankees I just love.
Joba is the only player on the Yankees I just love.
1k5v3L and Wok, evil twins separated at birth. I think Wok's the one on the right.
How is hitting someone in the shoulder unacceptable? Even if we assume that Hansen was aiming for ARod (which still seems doubtful), his control is far from perfect. That he was able to keep it on ARod's body, rather than in his head area, is good. To me, it's unacceptable when the ball actually goes in the head area.* That's when you know the pitcher is, at least, not being careful enough with his pitches.
*I actually don't like pitchers throwing at hitters at all but I try to live in the real world sometimes.
It's the sort of pitch where a couple inches lower is ok, but if you don't have the control to be sure - as Hansen does not - you've got to aim a lot lower than Hansen did.
Couldn't tell if it was quite that hight, but if it's at ARod's neck, I agree that that's not appropriate.
I agree with your take, though - the Yankees are pros, the Sox amateurs when it comes to playing hardball.
Like the cut to Joba in the dugout in that link, tossing a baseball in his hand and staring out at the field.
Sox management would probably applaud if he beans Manny next time.
Except that the point has been made since time immemorial that if you want to crack a batter's skull, you don't throw at his head, you throw below and behind it---exactly what Hansen did, and not at all what Joba did.
Not to mention that Joba had zero motivation to hit Youk, given the 1-0 score; and that Hansen had a clear revenge motive as a garbage time pitcher in a game that was clearly a lost cause. Your line of reasoning about Joba's intent is based solely on your reading of his past performance and little else. Again, if he'd wanted to bean Youk he wouldn't have thrown where he did. Hansen's job was far more coldblooded in execution, which is exactly why the Fenway crowd exploded in cheers when it happened. As usual, the fans are a hundred times more bloodthirsty than any ballplayer.
But again, all this is baseball as we've known it for so many years that I still don't see what the fuss is about. A-Rod suffered a hell of a lot more from all this than any other player, and he's not doing any whining. You all might follow his example.
Is it your goal to entirely destroy your own credibility?
That sounds plausible, but it's countered by a long history of beanball wars that took place in the years before 1973, and in the NL to this day. Sal Maglie wasn't called "The Barber" because he trimmed hair in the offseason. And remember that most of this history took place in an era before the advent of the batting helmet.
Is it your goal to entirely destroy your own credibility?
Is it your goal to prove that you've never played a game of baseball in your life, and that you've never read a single word on the subject of intentional beanballs before the beginning of this thread? By the evidence of your words, that seems to be the case.
Repeating this over and over again is not going to make it true.
Yankee fans and Fenway fans are equally coldblooded. They're all the equivalent of neocon chickenhawks.
Except that the point has been made since time immemorial that if you want to crack a batter's skull, you don't throw at his head, you throw below and behind it---exactly what Hansen did.
Repeating this over and over again is not going to make it true.
No, but one look at the video will convince anyone that this is what Hansen did. And if you honestly don't know by now that aiming behind and below the head is the best way to bean a batter, then you're simply ignorant of baseball history.
The problem here is your attempt to draw some clear moral distinction between these beanballs. There's no evidence for it, and you're really flailing. Chamberlain's pitches were obviously at Youkilis' head. There's some dispute as to whether Hansen was throwing at ARod's head - if that weren't the case, it would constitute a reasonable distinction - but I've been arguing that the best interpretation is that Hansen did throw a serious beanball, and I think the video pretty clearly backs me up. Trying to make a distinction between different types of throwing at an opponent's head smacks of fanboy desperation.
EDIT: clarity
Slightly behind, Matt, though not much. I've watched it several times now.
Here's my bottom line. Joba's got no motivation to hit Youk, given the game situation. Youk's a leaner and in trying to force him off the plate, the pitch sailed and almost hit him.
Youk reacted exactly like anyone would have reacted, me included. It was only natural, and I can't blame him in the heat of the moment. If he'd charged the mound, he couldn't have been faulted, again as an instinctive reaction.
And I can see Hansen wanting to send a retaliatory message in return. Can't blame him for that. And since his control was questionable to begin with, his pitch also got away from him and instead of hitting A-Rod in the butt, he nearly plunked him in the head and nearly fractured his arm.
Neither of these guys are precision control artists. But it's a stretch bordering on demagoguery to say that either of them had any intention of hitting anyone in the head.
EDIT: And to make myself clear, I see NO moral distinction between these two situations. I see two pitchers trying to make a statement, and two pitchers with less than perfect command. End of story.
Joba is doing what every power pitcher since Walter Johnson has wanted to do, which is convince hitters he's batshit crazy and might try to kill them. Does wonders to keep the hitters uncomfortable and off the inner part of the plate. You think it's concidence he was teammates with Mr. Clemens last year?
And Hansen was just doing what every team was going to do in response, which is plunk a Yankees' star in garbage time.
There's no difference between this and what Pedro did vs. the Yanks, except Torre didn't protect his players.
This is Baseball 101. The only ones who don't seem to get it are Youklis (who looks to have totally psyched himself out) and 50% of the posters in this thread.
Has he been hit in the head, or even hit, even once?
Snapper's Baseball 101. Class dismissed.
First, Joba's not a control pitcher. He was all around the strike zone on Friday, and if you believe Darren, it was only by bad umpiring that he didn't issue about a dozen walks.
Second, Youk's a leaner, which is part of what makes him both a gamer and a good hitter. I'd gladly trade Giambi for him and make him an instant True Yankee. But the downside of that is that it causes a lot of close calls on pitches up and in, which are a legitimate part of every pitcher's repertory.
Third, when you combine those two tendencies, incidents like Friday's are bound to happen. And again, I'm not blaming Youk for reacting the way he did. But I don't think Joba's any headhunter. To me that's a way overused term to begin with, especially these days. Don Drysdale and Sal Maglie, maybe.
Like Snapper says, it's just baseball. It's not a pink tea party, but it's not war, either.
You can debate intent on either pitch; however, if we can't have a reality-based discussion of the actual location of the pitches as a starting point we'll never get anywhere, though.
Exactly.
And, was anybody surprised that a garbage bullpen guy like Hansen was the one to hit A-Rod? It was the perfect time to do it - 7-3 game.
And, Francona had every right to order the hit.
And, Francona had every right to order the hit.
I don't think anyone's disputing that. I'm only glad that Youk didn't get hit and that A-Rod seems to have gotten only a nasty bruise.
What? Did he get hit in the lips?
I wouldn't be suprised at all if last year Clemens advised Joba to pick a guy on the Sox and try to get under his skin. I think the first two times Joba was definitely trying to buzz Youklis. Friday, I think it just got away from him. There was no reason to buzz him there, but a high, hard thrower will lose one now and then. Boston had every right to retaliate; although Hansen should have gone a little lower (maybe he tried) due to his own control issues.
I suppose that's possible, although:
Piazza v. Clemens, career: .421/.500/1.105, for a 1.605 OPS. I don't know if it worked.
Piazza v. Clemens, career: .421/.500/1.105, for a 1.605 OPS. I don't know if it worked.
Hey, nobody said all of Clemens's ideas were good ones :-)
Yes, it's all Clemens's fault, just like the Iraq War and AIDS. :)
He did like to play around with needles. ;-) There's no "fault" here. It's just baseball as it always has been played.
Now you've finally lost all credibility, Andy.
1st game, last August 28: walked on a full count
2nd game, last August 30: walked on a 3-1 count
3rd game, this July 6: two singles on 0-2 counts; walk on a full count
4th game, the other night: swinging strikeout on a full count; pop to left on a 2-2 count; swinging strikeout on a 2-2 count
If the rotation holds, their next faceoff will be on Wednesday night, Aug. 27th. I have a feeling that ESPN might be there.....
Not to mention that Joba had zero motivation to hit Youk, given the 1-0 score; and that Hansen had a clear revenge motive as a garbage time pitcher in a game that was clearly a lost cause.
"Revenge" for what, Andy? You mean, for throwing at Youkilis's head, right?
What the hell else do you think I meant? Whether or not Joba intended to do it has little to do with what the Red Sox thought his intentions were. I've already said that in their place, I'd have thought the same thing.
But it's nice to see that your heretofore Mt. Olympian standards of inference and proof seem to have gone on vacation. Must be nice for them to get out and stretch once in a while.
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