Joe Mauer obviously only does this out of his innate sense of fairness. He would do it for the Tigers too, but they never ask. He is that much a saint. Sometimes, he even lets baserunners have a headstart so that they have a chance of beating his laser rocket arm. All so that everyone can have a even playing field.

(/end sarcasm)

The Unwritten Code/Rules says that stealing and tipping signs is fine so long as you aren't using any other equipment, like binoculars. So bravo to Joe.

But with Joe Mauer doing it...Well, that’s gotta sting to all the Twins fans that built him up to be the greatest player in their franchises histo

I'm not a Twins fan and this doesn't even bother me. It's not like the A-Rod allegations where he was supposedly tipping for the other team.

Completely awesome video... they guy who put that together did a great job. I wish the Royals knew how to tip pitches. Sigh.

I thought when I read the blurb that it would be talking about Mauer tipping pitches when he himself is behind the plate. Hilarious in any event.

Um, when you're running at second base, you're supposed to steal the signs if you can. That's why they change signs with a runner on second.

This is just great baseball by it's greatest player.

Yeah, I don't understand the tone of this post at all. "JOE MAUER ATTEMPTS TO HELP OWN TEAM"

What is the problem with this supposed to be? If you're on second you're supposed to try to steal signs. If the opposing team has a problem with it, they can either:
(1) change up signs
(2) put next pitch in batter's ear

Granting that I topped out at HS ball, but when I caught, I assumed the guy on second was tipping unless I changed things up.

Oh bloggers.

Really nice presentation on the video.

Mauer shouldn't have tagged up, just to #### with Verlander for another hitter.

The tone of the piece is stupid but the video is really well done. That's the kind of analysis I'd love to see from ESPN or Fox when they are presenting a game. If some schmuck in his mother's basement picked this up the announcers should too.

Players always try to steal signs and it's not that difficult to prevent.

I thought catchers always went to a new sign system when a guys is on 2nd. Here, it seems like the Tigers waited until halfway through the at-bat before it occured to them.

Terrific video - now if we can get the same person to watch Lidge and figure out how he's tipping his pitches this year!

Scott Podsednik signals a fastball is coming by getting picked off second.

Speaking of pitch tipping, John Smoltz got lit up by the Reds yesterday. I guess the Reds got moved to the AL when I wasn't looking.

Jamie Moyer reputedly goes to great lengths with his catcher to keep his signs from being stolen with a runner on second. I've read stories that he would have several different methods of signaling pitches. At times he would call the pitch himself, and the signal would be based on the number of times he shook of the catcher's call.

Speaking of Moyer, I suppose "torn groin muscle" ranks below "fractured testicle" on the list of injuries that make you wince and reflexively cross your legs upon hearing about them, but that's still pretty bad. Good luck to the old man in his rehab. (How do you work out your groin with a trainer? On second thought, don't answer that.)

Matt Wieters is impressed.

Maybe to prevent this sort of thing, the runner on second should be required to face toward centerfield.

I thought catchers always went to a new sign system when a guys is on 2nd. Here, it seems like the Tigers waited until halfway through the at-bat before it occured to them.

they do - they go to the multiple-sign system (with just a runner on first you can stick with the one-sign system, since the runner doesn't have an angle to see it). Then, within the at-bat, if you notice the guy on second is stealing the sign you change up the multiple-sign system.

So, if he's sitting fastball, does that mean he doesn't know what Mauer is doing?


By the way, the double that got Mauer to second was awesome. High, inside heat and Mauer got around on it like it was a change up out over the plate. I couldn't believe he hit that ball at all, much less where and how hard he hit it.

i've seen stuff like this happen a LOT - especially with biggio on second. some guys are GREAT at stealing signs and also even if you tell a batter WHICH pitch is coming, he doesn't know where it is and he STILL has to hit it

not sure exactly why this is something that shows that mauer is a bad guy who shouldn't get the mvp

Maybe to prevent this sort of thing, the runner on second should be required to face toward centerfield.

You just gave away the sign for a knuckleball.

I think the real story here is that takes almost 4 minutes for Justin Verlander to record an out against Jason Kubel. This was nigh interminable even with the excellent analysis.

I can't see the video at work but it sounds like he is "stealing signs" not "tipping pitches".

The former a good skill to have the latter not so much.

The tone of the piece is stupid but the video is really well done.

Agree 100% with this.

That's the kind of analysis I'd love to see from ESPN or Fox when they are presenting a game.

Obviously, I agree with this as well. I think (and I emphasize think, as I can't honestly say that I know) that most former players turned announcers are extremely loath to reveal all that they know about other players' tendencies and how they're revealing their intentions. Again, I don't know this to be true, but from listening to and reading interviews with former players, you just get the sense when the topic is broached that there's a sort of code that this stuff belongs in the game, only to be passed along to fellow players and not to be revealed to the public at large.

DB

I think the real story here is that takes almost 4 minutes for Justin Verlander to record an out against Jason Kubel. This was nigh interminable even with the excellent analysis.

Well, the maker of the video argues, I think convincingly, that the at-bat takes forever precisely because Laird and Verlander realize their signs are being stolen, and they have to call off pitches, switch signs, and the like in order to prevent Kubel from knowing what's coming next.

most former players turned announcers are extremely loath to reveal all that they know about other players' tendencies and how they're revealing their intentions

Plus, you can bet the Twins would be VERY pissed at whichever media outlet was revealing their tricks.

Nonsense, complete and utter nonsense. As 13 and 20 point out, they change sign systems with baserunners on. Second sign counts, last sign counts, first sign counts, whatever. OOH look!! Mauer touches his ear hole! OOh look at Kubel glancing at Mauer for the sign! Please. Nonsense.

Apparently Joe Carter and Roberto Alomar were both great at stealing signs

Apparently Joe Carter and Roberto Alomar were both great at stealing signs

Given that Cito has a reputation around the league as an expert at both stealing signs and picking up when a pitcher is tipping pitches, they probably both were pretty good at it.

29: uhhh, did you watch the video?

By the way, the double that got Mauer to second was awesome. High, inside heat and Mauer got around on it like it was a change up out over the plate. I couldn't believe he hit that ball at all, much less where and how hard he hit it.

From jack Curry's story on Mauer in todays' NYT:

DETROIT — Justin Verlander wanted his 98-mile-per-hour fastball to buzz inside and almost touch the Minnesota on Joe Mauer’s uniform jersey. He wanted to pinpoint the pitch in such a spot that Mauer could not extend his bat and make contact. He wanted Mauer to swing through the elevated fastball.

Verlander’s execution worked for the Detroit Tigers on Tuesday night, but his plan failed. The fastball hummed in tight on Mauer and seemed as if it could even nick his chest. Perhaps Mauer could foul off the pitch or hope it did not veer over the plate for a strike.

But Mauer did something else, something compelling, as usual. He reacted with stunning speed, whipped his bat around and somehow lined a double to right field. Instead of being constrained by a fastball that was designed to shackle him, Mauer smacked the ball as if it were sitting on a tee.

“That was a joke,” Verlander said. “That’s the only thing I got for that. I came in the dugout and I said, ‘I will never know how he hit that pitch, kept it fair and didn’t break his bat.’ He almost got the barrel on it.”

Would anyone besides Mauer have hit that pitch?

“He’s hitting .370 for a reason,” Verlander said. “It’s not easy in this league. To be able to do things like that, it reminds you of why he’s so good.”

It was one swing, but it was one more piece of evidence regarding Mauer’s artistry as a hitter.

Curse Joe Mauer for trying to win baseball games!

I did watch the video. The first pitch wasnt a curve.

At the 2:50 mark "quick pitch..no sign...means a fastball" and he threw a splitter. Please.

That was pretty sweet, just one more reason why Mauer is the best player in the AL.

most former players turned announcers are extremely loath to reveal all that they know about other players' tendencies and how they're revealing their intentions

Listening to Twins broadcasts the past few years (very painful, I know), I've pretty much reached the conclusion that a) Jim Perry was throwing a greaseball during his Cy Young season, b) he taught the secret to Blyleven when he was young, and c) Blyleven because using it occasionally as he aged and lost some of his better stuff. Bert's never particularly forthcoming about it, but piecing together many statements leads to those conlcusions.

I did watch the video. The first pitch wasnt a curve.

what do you think it was? definitely wasnt a fastball. Maybe the tip-off code was binary, either fastball or not-fastball.

I thought catchers always went to a new sign system when a guys is on 2nd. Here, it seems like the Tigers waited until halfway through the at-bat before it occured to them.

I'm surprised that Gerald Laird even recognized it at all.

so what? He tipped some pitches?

great video by the way.

so what? He tipped some pitches?

great video by the way.


agreed all around (although I do think that the guy miss called a few of the pitches--still good solid attempt at actual analysis, something you don't see from the networks)

I do not understand how anyone could take this as a negative thing about the character of Mauer.

what do you think it was? definitely wasnt a fastball. Maybe the tip-off code was binary, either fastball or not-fastball.

This is my guess. There's nothing wrong with what Mauer did, but I wonder what the Twins pitching staff thinks of it? It's like when you're a kid and you fight with your brothers occasionally. Sure, you can kick them in the balls, but once you do, then that option is available to them, too.

I've got no problem with Mauer doing this. I'd also have no problem with Verlander or another Tigers pitcher burying one between the numbers in Mauer's next at bat.

Apparently Joe Carter and Roberto Alomar were both great at stealing signs

Billy Martin had that rep also--both as a player and a manger

Supposedly one of the best of all time was Charlie Dressen, but that might just be his own version of things

“That was a joke,” Verlander said. “That’s the only thing I got for that. I came in the dugout and I said, ‘I will never know how he hit that pitch, kept it fair and didn’t break his bat.’ He almost got the barrel on it.”

Watch the video again. Mauer gets the hit by pulling his hands in tight to his body. This way, when he connects, he's not in front of the ball, but instead moves the fulcrum of his swing further inside to prevent himself from hitting it foul. With his hands in tight like that, he doesn't get as much power- note that while it looks like he's swinging very hard, he just dumps it into shallow right, rather than ripping it down the line like many doubles hit in that direction.

Manny Ramirez is another guy that you see this do pretty regularly. It's a way to get singles because when the ball is coming at your eyes, you get much better contact as the angle of the ball to your head/body doesn't change as it gets closer- remember that part of what makes it so hard to hit MLB fastballs is that as they approach the plate, there's a rapid change in viewing angle. You have to move your eyes very quickly to follow the ball onto your bat. On inside pitches, it's not a problem. Instead, you swing hard, hit a line drive because you make better contact, and dump the ball over the infield because you don't have enough power to hit it into an outfielder's glove.

Speaking of Moyer, I suppose "torn groin muscle" ranks below "fractured testicle" on the list of injuries that make you wince and reflexively cross your legs upon hearing about them, but that's still pretty bad.

On the other end of the career spectrum, Padres' prospect Donavan Tate will have surgery to repair a "pubic bone stress reaction." That sounds pretty wince-worthy.

To return to the topic at hand, Joe Nossek, long-time bench coach for the ChiSox and others, was reportedly very good at sign stealing.

Tate will have surgery to repair a "pubic bone stress reaction."

I shudder to think how he came up with THAT injury

Well, the kid did just get a $1.25M check (the first of five). . .

Noticed this during the game when the catcher waved his hand. Good for Mauer, doing the "little" things that don't show up in the boxscore. He does a whole lot of those little things (handling pitchers, calling a good game, baserunning, defense, clubhouse leadership, etc.) well which only adds to his MVP candidacy.

It was crazy seeing Mauer rip that inside pitch into RF. He's right, not many people can do that to a hard-in fastball.

I've got no problem with Mauer doing this. I'd also have no problem with Verlander or another Tigers pitcher burying one between the numbers in Mauer's next at bat.

To me, there's a huge difference between "outsmarting the other team" and "trying to injure another player." If you don't want to be outsmarted, get smarter.

Besides, Mauer wears a single digit.

To return to the topic at hand, Joe Nossek, long-time bench coach for the ChiSox and others, was reportedly very good at sign stealing.

Bobby Bragan too back in the old days--although what he was supposedly REALLY good at was figuring out how the greaseballers were loading up

Mr. Man were you watching the game? He hit that ball sharply. It was a double down the line. Yes, he did all that you say and he gave up some power to do it, but it wasn't a little dinker that just fell in between the IF and OF.

I've gone back and watched the video again. Two things: the first pitch wasn't a fastball, but if it was a curve, it was a hanger and Verlander is lucky; the second is that the catcher clearly doesn't just put down two fingers like the videomaker says. He went through a series. If Mauer stole that sign, it was well done.

I shudder to think how he came up with THAT injury

Ask your mom. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I shudder to think how he came up with THAT injury


Ask your mom. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Hoggin' was going to be my answer but that's just not right...

To me, there's a huge difference between "outsmarting the other team" and "trying to injure another player."

There's a difference between inflicting pain/punishment and injuring.

There's a difference between inflicting pain/punishment and injuring.

Either way, Mauer knows "the rules." Stealing signs is fine if you can do it, but if you get caught, you might get drilled. I'm quite sure that if the shoe was on the other foot, and the Twins could afford to do so, Mauer would be giving the sign for one in the ribs. That is the nature of the game as it's played at that level.

The Twins say this is b.s., which they would do whether it was or wasn't, but Gardy makes a good point:

"If you're stealing signs and you're using your hands on your helmet, I guarantee you, somebody would get killed," Gardenhire said. "That's not the way you steal signs."

Also, that piece identifies the video analyst as Tony Faust of Maple Grove, Minn. Any chance he's a Primate?

The hands on helmet thing is very suspicious. A couple of those times, he just taps the helmet, obviously ineffective at securing or adjusting his helmet. This is either stealing signs, or a superstition/nervous tic/ritual.

An obvious control would be to see if he taps his helmet while on 1B/3B.

Did you ever watch Dale Murphy on second? He tapped his head like a maniac. Kept looking behind him nervously. At some point, as a young kid or early pro, he got picked off second in an embarrassing fashion.

Also, that piece identifies the video analyst as Tony Faust of Maple Grove, Minn. Any chance he's a Primate?

Do not bargain with Tony, whatever you do. . .

1) The video was very well done.

2) That said, I don't buy the guy's analysis. First, he appears not to understand the concept of a series of signs. Plus, in one of the cases Mauer began touching his helmet even before the sign was flashed. And the pitch where the guy just writes it off as "Mauer missed the sign" is awfully convenient. And claiming to know exactly what Leyland, Verlander, and the on-deck hitter are thinking just by looking at a two seconds of video is beyond stupid.

3) I agree that it would be cool to see analysis like this on ESPN or MLBN from an ex-player who actually knows what he's talking about.

4) If Mauer actually WAS stealing signs, bully for him. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it and, in fact, it would make me admire him MORE as a player, not less. Anyone who would complain about this is either (a) a way too emotional Tigers fan, (b) clueless, or, more likely, (c) both.

5) It surprises me that so many people, some pretty hardcore fans apparently included, don't know that stealing signs and tipping pitches are two very different things. Stealing signs is what Mauer was supposedly doing. For tipping pitches, go ask Luke Hochevar.

My god, isn't anyone who plays baseball at any sort of high level (competitive HS ball and up) taught to try and steal signs when on second? It's PART OF THE GAME!

The guy that put the video together seems to have little clue about the culture of baseball and what's kosher and what isn't. I know the "unwritten rules" rub many people the wrong way, but stealing pitches is part of the "unwritten rules" and it's completely expected.

It's allowed by the written rules too.

I do not understand how anyone could take this as a negative thing about the character of Mauer.

Obviously the implication is that Mauer is cheating, and according to some cheating, no matter what form it takes, is morally reprehensible and punishable by a lifetime HOF ban and a blizzard of asterisks. See every internet steroid discussion ever. Not that I would agree with that. The guy is also a Tigers fan.

EDIT: What God said.

Actually, yeah, it looks more like a "dink" double: would it have even rolled to the wall, if the RF didn't pick it up?
Good piece of hitting, though, as the announcers would say.

I see God's a little more understanding of His son than He was a few days ago.

I think Derek Jeter used to steal signs at the old Yankee Stadium. Not so much at the new park.

I have had a torn groin muscle (actually, my rectus abdominus, way down low near the pubic bone). It was as grotesque as it sounds. Took me a year to recover completely.

To return to the topic at hand, Joe Nossek, long-time bench coach for the ChiSox and others, was reportedly very good at sign stealing.

To digress from the topic at hand, Nossek always has a fond spot in my heart because he got the winning hit in the June 25, 1965 game between the Twins and the Tigers at Met Stadium.

The Twins were down by one run going in to the bottom of the 9th. Oliva and Jimmie Hall, the first two batters flew out, so the Twins were down to their last out. Killebrew walked, and Mudcat Grant(!) went in as a pinchrunner. Mincher then walked as well. Bernie Allen drove in Grant with a single to CF, Mincher and Allen advancing to third and second on the play at the plate. The Twins are now at the #8 and #9 spots in the batting order (catcher Jerry Zimmerman and pitcher Johnny Klippstein), with Rich Rollins and Nossek available on the bench.

With first base open the Tigers were probably going to take their chances with anybody but Rollins at the plate - if Rollins pinch hit for Zimmerman they would likely walk Rollins to put a weak bat at the plate with a force on any base. But if Zimmerman bats for himself or Nossek PHs for Zimmerman, then they'll go after Nossek/Zimmerman with first base open. Sam Mele, Minnesota manager, opts to send Rollins up to PH for Zimmerman, and the Tigers give Rollins the IBB. Nossek then comes up to PH for Klippstein. Nossek is still a weak bat, though, so I figure the game is headed to extra innings.

The Tigers' strategy almost works to perfection. Nossek does hit the ball weakly, a groundball up the third base line. But he hits it so weakly it's like a swinging bunt, and Nossek beats it out for an infield single to win the game.

I remember the game for a number of reasons. I was listening to the game on the radio with some friends, and when there were two out in the bottom the 9th they were urging me to turn off the radio. But I insisted on listening to the end, and got the call on a great comeback win. I think imagining the game in my mind while listening on the radio may have made it even more vivid than if I had been at the old Met Stadium. The Twins win expectancy when Killebrew came to bat was 4%.

The rally was also fun because the Twins scored two runs with two out in the bottom of the 9th with only one ball hit as far as the outfield grass.

I learned something about strategy in that 9th inning. I remember wondering why Mele sent Grant out to pinchrun for Killebrew instead of using Nossek, who appeared to be the more logical choice to pinchrun. Then as the inning unfolded it dawned on me that Mele had planned ahead for exactly the situation that unfolded.

Finally, with that win the Twins went to 40-25 as they were getting close to the end of June. That game, more than any other, made me believe that the 1965 Twins team looked like a team of destiny - that it was actually rational to think that the generally hapless Twins might actually win a pennant that year.

So whenever Nossek's name comes up I think of that game and the mental image I formed in my mind of a groudball going up the third base line and Nossek beating the throw to first in a bang-bang play. (I don't know if it was actually close, but when you're listening to the radio you can make it look whatever way you want.)

End of this digression.

I realize I'm late to this party, but I just have to say: I am sincerely amazed, stunned, that someone who's presumably a baseball fan (a) doesn't understand the difference between pitch-tipping and sign-stealing, and (b) doesn't realize that not only is there nothing morally wrong with sign-stealing, it's an integral part of the game, it's something that ballplayers (and coaches) are SUPPOSED to do.

I'm appalled.

Is that even legal?

The guy that put the video together seems to have little clue about the culture of baseball and what's kosher and what isn't. I know the "unwritten rules" rub many people the wrong way, but stealing pitches is part of the "unwritten rules" and it's completely expected.

Huh? There's nothing in the video that could lead to this conclusion.

I realize I'm late to this party, but I just have to say: I am sincerely amazed, stunned, that someone who's presumably a baseball fan (a) doesn't understand the difference between pitch-tipping and sign-stealing, and (b) doesn't realize that not only is there nothing morally wrong with sign-stealing, it's an integral part of the game, it's something that ballplayers (and coaches) are SUPPOSED to do.

If you're talking about the guy who wrote the blog, take a look at some of his other content. You won't be so appalled.

So eager to believe...

what do you think it was? definitely wasnt a fastball. Maybe the tip-off code was binary, either fastball or not-fastball.

Whatever it was, it wasn't a curve. A change, maybe? Not a curve.

Again...nah, forget it. Sorry. Not in the mood.

I am sincerely amazed, stunned, that someone who's presumably a baseball fan (a) doesn't understand the difference between pitch-tipping and sign-stealing

There are "presumably baseball fans" who've probably never even seen Joe Mauer play. I think you're overestimating the casual fan.

doesn't realize that not only is there nothing morally wrong with sign-stealing, it's an integral part of the game, it's something that ballplayers (and coaches) are SUPPOSED to do.

Well, this is an opinion (albeit an almost universal one). I'm sure there are reasonable people who haven't played the game and are casual fans who think there's something wrong with it.

The tone of the piece is stupid but the video is really well done. That's the kind of analysis I'd love to see from ESPN or Fox when they are presenting a game. If some schmuck in his mother's basement picked this up the announcers should too.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who is generally unimpressed by sports color guys. You just know there has to be more to the game (in whatever sport you're talking about) than what they typically blather on about, but rarely does a color guy go into that kind of depth. I wonder if that's another one of those unwritten rules, that as an ex-jock you aren't supposed to point out all the secrets of the guys who are still playing (or coaching) the game. Exhibit A this year would have to be Chucky Gruden; I'll bet he'll go out of his way this season to avoid rigorously dissecting a team's coverage if he can avoid it-instead he'll mumble something about the strong safety biting too quickly on a fake, and that will be the end of it.