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Monday, July 14, 2008

Joe Posnanski: The rare trade that hurts both players

That would be Bobby Murcer and Bobby Bonds...and Poz at his best.

When Bobby Murcer died young due to complications of cancer, I immediately thought about Bobby Bonds, who also died young, five years ago, due to similar complications. Baseball can do this, it can connect people in your mind. I’ve thought before that if San Francisco had not traded Bobby Bonds, he might be in the Hall of Fame today. I’ve thought before that if Bobby Murcer had come along at a slightly different time, he might be there with him. I’ve thought that in some ways they were both cheated a little bit by the baseball fates.

But maybe not. Baseball, like life, overflows with what might have been, and in the end it’s interesting to think about but it’s not much use. They both were something else when they were young, then they both got traded, and they had a few moments left. When Bobby Bonds finished playing, he became known as the father of Barry. And when Bobby Murcer finished, he became a Yankees announcer and as a true Yankee, which I suspect was what he always wanted.

I’ve spent the last day or so reading people’s memories of Bobby Murcer, and it sure seems like he was loved. A lot of the stories call him underrated, which I think is probably right. Anyway, it figures. Someone once told me that underrated people have large funerals.

Repoz Posted: July 14, 2008 at 12:23 PM | 23 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralHistoryHall of FameNY YankeesSan Francisco

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   1. Harold Reynolds: An Erotic Life (AG#1F) Posted: July 14, 2008 at 01:03 PM (#2855941)
Wow, really interesting stuff about two players I really didn't know too much about. And a beautifully written ending. I don't know if I could ever feel like two guys who got to spend ten years in the big leagues got cheated, but perhaps Bonds and Murcer got cheated a bit in their careers.
   2. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 14, 2008 at 01:08 PM (#2855946)
Alex, you could point to a LOT of guys who if things had evolved differently might have had MUCH bigger careers.

One of the situations to which I had firsthand experience was watching the Braves manager who shall not be named jerk around Joe Adcock. You put Joe Adcock in the game today and he's a big star.

There are many, many others.

But that doesn't change that this was a great article.
   3. seeking a clever screen name since 1999 Posted: July 14, 2008 at 01:20 PM (#2855954)
Joe Posnanski will have a very, very large funeral. But not for at least 50 years, I hope.
   4. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: July 14, 2008 at 01:23 PM (#2855957)
Pretty good take, but there isn't that much mystery why neither of them caught on with the fans until the later part of their careers. Murcer never made it in New York for the same reason that Mantle himself never really made it for good until 1961: Mantle wasn't Dimaggio, and Murcer wasn't Mantle.

And Bonds never made it in San Francisco for two reasons: He wasn't Willie Mays, and he struck out way too much. Free swingers who set strikeout records are nearly always going to hear it from the fans whenever they strike out, because it simply confirms their reputations as hitters who care only about home runs. It's not fair, but it's a fact.
   5. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:06 PM (#2856001)
I seem to recall--although I could be misremembering--that Bonds's 30-30 achievements and near 40-40 were actually highly thought of at the time. The kicker was the strikeouts, of course. You couldn't strike out that much and be considered the best (see, "Jackson, Reggie, 1969").

I don't know if I could ever feel like two guys who got to spend ten years in the big leagues got cheated, but perhaps Bonds and Murcer got cheated a bit in their careers.

That's a glass-half-empty way of looking at it. If, say Murcer hadn't in his early years played his home games in Yankee Stadium (which Poz says suited his style of hitting), maybe he'd've just been a 100 OPS+ CF today.
   6. Carl Yastrzemski, A Well-Paid Slav (GGC) Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:27 PM (#2856027)
A buddy of mine has a friend who is about 50 who grew up in Waterbury, CT, which is Yankee territory. His dad rooted for the Red Sox instead. Apparently, Murcer and Pepitone both had hair too long for his tastes. Another one of the differences between CBS and Steinbrenner.
   7. seeking a clever screen name since 1999 Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:40 PM (#2856038)
Murcer played his first five full seasons with the old Yankee Stadium as his home park. His home/road splits are pretty unremarkable for three of those five years. He hit 314/407/520 in away games in 1971. Those are MVP numbers, even without an era adjustment. 1973 is really the only time that he was a monster at home and a dud on the road. Much has been made about how Shea ruined him, but he actually hit quite a bit better at home than on the road in his one season there.
   8. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 14, 2008 at 03:02 PM (#2856093)
Thanks, seeking. I was just pretty much taking Poz's word for it. But I think the point still stands, that there are surely factors that worked in Murcer's favor, perhaps some that we don't even know about (maybe his two years in the service strengthened him physically and/or mentally, etc., take your wild-ass guess pick).
   9. baseballing powerhouse (phredbird) Posted: July 14, 2008 at 03:51 PM (#2856150)
harvey, didn't bill james write about how the braves of the late 50s-early 60s were one of the most talented teams not to be more dominant? i remember reading an article about that, and came away thinking wow, what a lost opportunity.
   10. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 14, 2008 at 03:59 PM (#2856155)
harvey, didn't bill james write about how the braves of the late 50s-early 60s were one of the most talented teams not to be more dominant? i remember reading an article about that, and came away thinking wow, what a lost opportunity.

Ooh, don't get him started on "the Braves manager who shall not be named."
   11. The Most Interesting Man In The World Posted: July 14, 2008 at 04:12 PM (#2856172)
"the Braves manager who shall not be named."

Without looking it up, I'll suggest this fellow has the same initials as "the freely available power hitter".
   12. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 14, 2008 at 04:23 PM (#2856182)
phred:

Yes. Fred Haney.

Ned Yost is a godd*mn Nobel prize winner compared to that son of a b*tch. Look at the playing patterns and lineups some day if you have a chance. Make your head hurt.
   13. Carl Yastrzemski, A Well-Paid Slav (GGC) Posted: July 14, 2008 at 04:23 PM (#2856184)
Without looking it up, I'll suggest this fellow has the same initials as "the freely available power hitter".


I'm thinking more along the lines of a former catcher who used to be a color guy on Mets games.
   14. The Most Interesting Man In The World Posted: July 14, 2008 at 04:29 PM (#2856190)
Drat, I could have sworn it was Bobby Bragan.

Now I'm trying to think of a catcher with the intitials "FH"
   15. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 14, 2008 at 04:32 PM (#2856192)
Look at the playing patterns and lineups some day if you have a chance. Make your head hurt.


I remember Bill James going nuts over Haney hitting Frank Torre cleanup in the final game of the 1959 NL playoff between the Braves and Dodgers. Torre hit .228/.321/.304 that year, so Haney not only played him over Joe Adcock (!?!?!?), he hit him cleanup, and Eddie Mathews second. That's worse than hitting Jose Vidro cleanup...

Braves/Dodgers 1959 playoff
   16. Dag Nabbit Posted: July 14, 2008 at 04:49 PM (#2856213)
My favorite factoids in the 1959 Braves season (Warning: Harv, you may not want to read this):

Don Drysdale threw (IIRC) 69.2 IP that year against him. No pitcher, in all the years since then has thrown that many innings against one team. All he did was lead the league in strikeouts that year.

Toothpick Sam Jones threw 69.1 IP against the Braves that year. Not as big a name as Drysdale, but he led the league in ERA and Wins. Had each league had its own Cy Young Award, he would have won it for the NL. Oh, and he did very well against the Braves that league.

Those two men, believe or not, combined to toss 10% of all innings against the team that year. And they ended the season in a tie for first place, only to lose the best-of-3 playoffs. Chomp on the implications of those pitcher usage patterns. . . . .
   17. The Most Interesting Man In The World Posted: July 14, 2008 at 05:21 PM (#2856239)
I'm thinking more along the lines of a former catcher who used to be a color guy on Mets games.

Got it. Although I would have worded it as "middling left handed spot reliever who was NOT part of the Marlins 1997-1998 purge".
   18. too fat and ugly to play third Posted: July 14, 2008 at 05:43 PM (#2856251)
I'm thinking more along the lines of a former catcher who used to be a color guy on Mets games.


Faux homosexual? Is Piazza working Met games now?
   19. Proo Posted: July 14, 2008 at 08:42 PM (#2856430)
Now I'm trying to think of a catcher with the intitials "FH"

Fran Healy
   20. Walt Davis Posted: July 14, 2008 at 10:01 PM (#2856496)
I remember Bill James going nuts over Haney hitting Frank Torre cleanup in the final game of the 1959 NL playoff between the Braves and Dodgers.

I'm surprised HW's head didn't explode that day.

But ya gotta love the old roster flexibility. For the Braves in that game:

4 different guys spent time in LF ... none named Adcock
4 different guys spent time at 2B
5 pinch-hitters and 2 defensive replacements (i.e. entered the game not as pinch-hitters)
yet they never pinch-hit for the pitcher

You also get (just for the Braves) Frank Torre, Andy Pafko, Enos Slaughter, Al Spangler, Red Schoendienst, Mickey Vernon, Joe Adcock, Bobby Avila, Felix Mantilla, Del Crandall, Lew Burdette, Don McMahon and Warren Spahn. That's a lot of "name" players. Talk about veteran bench presence, sheesh.

Meanwhile, for the Dodgers, Drysdale, Podres and Koufax all pitched in the game. (Granted, Koufax wasn't Koufax yet)
   21. Walt Davis Posted: July 14, 2008 at 10:02 PM (#2856498)
Is this the first 1959 Milwaukee Braves hijack in Primer history?
   22. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 14, 2008 at 10:10 PM (#2856508)
Sonsab#tches.

Tormenting an old man.

Sonsab#tches.....
   23. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 15, 2008 at 09:13 AM (#2856819)
I told you guys not to do that...
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