Where would people rank Musial all-time among position players? I would say behind Ruth, Bonds, Williams, Mays, Wagner, and Cobb. The only other guy who might be better than him is Speaker. So I would probably say either the seventh or eight best position player in MLB history. Of course, Josh Gibson may have also been better...

That's exactly right by my rankings, Blackadder. Those 7 (including Speaker) ahead of him, and Gibson depends on the size of your catcher bonus. Hornsby is close--it depends on how you handle war discounts/credits for Stan, and your preference for career vs. peak, but I like Musial. He's definitely above Aaron, Collins, and Mantle.

Stan's projected stats from the above (assuming 2D6): .516/.583/.742, but only 1 double out of 36 PAs seems a bit low.

Joe Posnanski just gets better nearly every time he sits down at his computer. The only comparable writer I can think of would be Roger Angell, and that's getting into rare air territory.

The irony is that Pos and Musial share several key traits. They're the best at what they do. They've got an all-around game. They're not self-promoters. While they're respected by their peers, they don't have the name recognition of some of their more visible contemporaries. And part of the reason for that is that they're based in Missouri rather than New York.

But one minor nitpick, about that Musial home run that was called back. There was no such game, at least not as Pos relates it.

In 1952 the Cards only won one game with a walk-off hit, and it wasn't by Musial. In 1952 Eddie Stanky was the Cardinals' manager, not Solly Hemus. And by 1959, which is when Hemus had taken over the manager's job, Ben Wade had been retired for four years.

I'm sure that something like the incident Pos describes happened at some point in Musial's career. But it didn't happen in 1952, and not with both Wade and Hemus being the central characters.

(H)e did not break the home run record like Aaron, he did not get banished from the game like Rose, he did not break barriers like Jackie, he did not swear colorfully like Ted, he did not hit three homers in a World Series game like Reggie, he did not glare like Gibson, he did not throw like Clemente and he did not say funny and wise things like Yogi.

Or hit hungover home runs or Mari Marilyn Monroe. Unfortunately that may be why he isn't as remembered by folks as much as some of these other guys.

Where would people rank Musial all-time among position players?

Career or peak? All-around skills or statistical productivity? The first question wouldn't affect Musial's ranking too much, but if you're talking about all-around skills performed at a peak level, then Dimaggio rates above Musial. Their production numbers were roughly equal, and Musial wins that on the basis of longevity, but his defensive skills weren't even close to Dimaggio's.

The point is that you have to define the question before you can get an answer.

Sometimes I disagree with the immense 'I heart Joe' sentiment around here, but this one was very, very good.

Stan did have some effect on our culture... I believe Julian Javier named his son after him. And let's not forget the Seinfeld episode where Kramer's lawyer, Jackie Chiles, takes advice from a caddy named Stan, or as Jerry referred to him as, Stan The Man.

FWIW, Musial is my dad's favorite player of all time. And he's a Giants fan.

You can always get Short Al from Brooklyn to rave about Stan the Man (old Brooklyn Dodger fan who calss WFAN everyday at 4AM). Or Jackie Robinson. Or Gil Hodges. Or the evil Walter O'Malley. Or how he's never been to a big league ballpark since 1994 strike.
Feuding with Joe Garagiola for 30 years has to count in his favor.

whenever i read joe's writing, i know how the other baseball players felt when watching barry bonds - no matter what they did, they KNEW they wouldn't never be that good. like barry lamar said - it's talent and you can't teach talent. (or shoot it up neither kevin)

joe is kind of like stan his own self - he's not in the east coast media spotlight, so he doesn't get the recognition he deserves.

Man I miss Short Al helping me get to work.

The reason I never include Musial in my mental lists of the greatest living ballplayers is because I somehow got it in my head many years ago that he died sometime in the 70s and I can never remember that he didn't.

Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Speaker, Williams, Bonds, Mays, Wagner, Rodriguez, and Pujols.

I might rank Aaron ahead of Musial, especially if we're talking full career, but that's the only addition i can think off of the top of my head to the list in #1.

also, Poz is awesome. i'm virtually always impressed by his writing.

McCoy: I don't see how you get Pujols ahead of Musial. They are pretty directly comparable. We probably know what the peak and prime of Pujols looks like. It's great, of course, but I don't see it as better than the peak/prime of Musial. And Musial kept producing and producing over a staggeringly long career. Maybe Pujols will have a career like that, but he hasn't had it yet.

And Andy: Joe D? I don't see that. Yes, DiMaggio was an excellent-fielding centerfielder, and Musial wasn't - but he was about as good a fielder as he could be for the mix of positions he played (another connection to Pujols). And the way I look at offense (for Hall of Merit puposes), I see Musial as having a large peak/prime offensive advantage over DiMaggio, more than enough to offset the positional difference. I'd take Musial over DiMaggio for peak. (And career is no contest, of course.) Note also that while Musial played the first part of his career in a segregated league, we eventually got to see what he would look like against integrated competition. You can't say that about DiMaggio (or, for the most part, Williams).

You are right, obviously Musial has the longer career and almost all is known about him. But I'd still take Pujols right now over Musial even with Pujols future unknown. Pujols first 8 seasons is a 169 OPS+ and Musial's is a 171 but again I'd take Pujols first. Sure obvioulsy if Pujols pulls a Penny Hardaway or Larry Johnson he won't rank ahead of Musial but like I said I would take my chances with Pujols.

Career or peak? All-around skills or statistical productivity?
...The point is that you have to define the question before you can get an answer.

Word. A lot of these "best ever" questions seem to revolve around relative dominance in a player's own era rather than focusing on actual skill. That is, until Babe Ruth gets raised as best ever, at which point the integration issue gets raised and all of a sudden eras become relevant. (For what it's worth, Musial won two of his MVPs in a segregated league, and his third was in 1948 when integration was budding.)

I personally don't care where Musial falls on the list ranking hitters. He might not have been better than Frank Thomas or Jeff Bagwell or Mike Piazza or Manny or Matt Kemp. I have no idea. It's sufficient to recognize what he accomplished in its own right -- which was outstanding -- and also know that he is arguably the greatest living Hall of Famer in the categories of personality and character (although he has some stiff competition there as well).

Thanks to Joe for giving his readers a reason to think about Musial, always a worthwhile activity.

You are right, obviously Musial has the longer career and almost all is known about him. But I'd still take Pujols right now over Musial even with Pujols future unknown. Pujols first 8 seasons is a 169 OPS+ and Musial's is a 171 but again I'd take Pujols first. Sure obvioulsy if Pujols pulls a Penny Hardaway or Larry Johnson he won't rank ahead of Musial but like I said I would take my chances with Pujols

OK, so it's peak you favor. Why Albert over Mantle then? 176 OPS+ over his first 8 seasons. From a CF. With a season of 206 yet to come.

Or Mike Piazza, who was a mere 156 over his first 8 seasons, but he was a catcher for crissakes?

Mantle's dead, Misrlou... they're doing "greatest living player."

As are 6 of the 10 in McCoy's list.

they're doing "greatest living player.

You're in the wrong thread.

Oh, right... man, I'm not having my best day. Wow, that is really high for Pujols then.

7. Slapinions Posted: July 20, 2008 at 10:26 AM (#2865425)
Sometimes I disagree with the immense 'I heart Joe' sentiment around here ...

Samp. Nay, as they dare. I will bite my thumb at them; which is
disgrace to them, if they bear it.

Abr. Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?

Samp. I do bite my thumb, sir.

Abr. Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?

Samp. [aside to Gregory] Is the law of our side if I say ay?

Greg. [aside to Sampson] No.

Samp. No, sir, I do not bite my thumb at you, sir; but I bite my
thumb, sir.

Greg. Do you quarrel, sir?

Abr. Quarrel, sir? No, sir.

Samp. But if you do, sir, am for you. I serve as good a man as you.

Abr. No better.

Samp. Well, sir. -

Enter Benvolio. -

Greg. [aside to Sampson] Say 'better.' Here comes one of my
master's kinsmen.

Samp. Yes, better, sir.

Abr. You lie.

Samp. Draw, if you be men ...