this matters less with the Royals than most other teams, the royals start 7 players that hit like pitchers.

“The thought process was more of wanting to bat Mitch and David DeJesus back-to-back,” Hillman said, “than it was to have Zack hit in front of an every-day position player.”

I keep seeing this logic. La Russa uses it. I was thinking about the same thing last night when the Nats hit Guzman, Johnson, Zimmerman, Dunn, and Willingham 1-5. If you're going to bat a guy like Johnson second (and put a weak hitter like Bard in the 6 hole), it either makes sense to bat the pitcher 8th (with a better hitter/OBP guy below him), or to move everyone down a slot in the order.

My question is, which is better? Batting the pitcher 8th, or moving everyone down a spot in the order and putting the guy you originally decided to bat 9th (when you moved the pitcher to 8th), into the 1 spot?

Ideally, you want your best hitters high in the lineup so they get more PA. If you have a good hitting leadoff hitter, putting someone better than a pitcher 9th means he has more opportunities to drive in runs.

Though if your 1 and 2 hitters are DeJesus and Bloomquist, it probably doesn't matter where the pitcher hits.

My question is, which is better? Batting the pitcher 8th, or moving everyone down a spot in the order and putting the guy you originally decided to bat 9th (when you moved the pitcher to 8th), into the 1 spot?

I think the conclusion was that batting the pitcher 8th is slightly better (and of course you assume that after three at bats you are pinch hitting for the pitcher if necessary) I like batting the pitchers 8th, and TLR thinks it makes a difference but occassionaly feels it isn't large enough difference to worry about having to explain it to people that are criticizing him.

I think the conclusion was that batting the pitcher 8th is slightly better (and of course you assume that after three at bats you are pinch hitting for the pitcher if necessary) I like batting the pitchers 8th, and TLR thinks it makes a difference but occassionaly feels it isn't large enough difference to worry about having to explain it to people that are criticizing him.

This is about what I think as well. I'm a little surprised that La Russa is so enlightened about it.

Batting the pitcher 8th, or moving everyone down a spot in the order and putting the guy you originally decided to bat 9th (when you moved the pitcher to 8th), into the 1 spot?

If this is the choice, it's a no-brainer, and it's the former. In no way can you put one of the worst hitters on the team at the top of the order.

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As for the general issue, my research in The Book (see it for free on Amazon's Look Inside) using Markov chains is that moving the pitcher from 9 to 8 will add roughly 2 runs in a 162 game season. MGL's research via his simulator is that it's a break-even or a slight advantage to keeping the pitcher in the 9th slot.

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The most egregious thing you can do is move the pitcher to the cleanup slot. This would cost you 0.1 runs per game (about 16 runs in a season). Basically, moving the pitcher up the order costs you around 4 runs per slot. Move pitcher from 8 to 7 to 6 to 5 to 4 and remove 4 runs each rung. That's the impact of a batting order. And remember, this is by far the worst hitter on the team. That's the impact here.

I presume most people would think that moving the pitcher to the cleanup slot would cost you half a run a game.

My question is, which is better? Batting the pitcher 8th, or moving everyone down a spot in the order and putting the guy you originally decided to bat 9th (when you moved the pitcher to 8th), into the 1 spot?


My take on this was always centered on the notion that the lower you go the fewer plate appearances you get. So if you're going to pinch hit for your pitcher at some point and you know you don't want to pinch hit for your SS (for example) then give the fraction of an extra AB to the pinch hitter rather than the SS. Same thing with putting that #9 in the #1 hole: if he can't hit then don't send him to the plate as often.

Of course I don't ever face the media, but the whole idea that it isn't a large enough difference to worry about having to explain it to people that are criticizing does make some sense as well.