Greinke had two separate "streaks" where he threw 100 or more pitches in 12 consecutive games in 2009. Overall, he threw 100+ in 26 of 33 (79%) starts.

Verlander's biggest "streak" was in 10 consecutive games at the end of the season and threw 100+ in 30 of 35 (86%) starts. Hinging Verlander's candidacy on seven percentage points within a considerably small sample makes for a weak argument.

There are very few refuges for those who wish to raise Verlander above Greinke. W-L record is one of those refuges; starts with 100-plus pitches is not one of them.

BTW, Verlander's ERA during that four-game 120-plus-pitches span at the end of the season? 4.20. (Insert marijuana joke)

He was an inspirational “horse,” using Tigers manager Jim Leyland’s term for him, on a fading team.

Looks like we need an Inspirational Horse of the Year award.

It's called the Jack Morris Award

Verlander received my first-place vote because nobody was tougher on the mound with the season on the line for his team.

Yeah, that's a pretty ######## argument.

Teams which played late in the season with "the season on the line":

1) Minnesota Twins
2) Detroit Tigers

Verlander was 4-2 with a 3.71 ERA in September/October.

Other pitchers from those two teams:

Rick Porcello, 3-1, 3.00
Brian Duensing, 3-1, 2.70
Nick Blackburn, 2-2, 3.41

Brian Duensing for Cy Young!

He was an inspirational “horse,” using Tigers manager Jim Leyland’s term for him, on a fading team.

And the only guy in the running with whom Kornacki needs to interact on a regular basis.

I would have voted for Greinke too but the voter is correct. Looking at the Championship Probability Added calculations in the 2010 Hardball Times Annual book, Verlander is the only guy who already is in the AL Cy Young race who both had the opportunity to greatly impact his team's playoff chances and who performed well in that clutch situation.

OK, I don't like even using that sort of logic for MVP, but Cy Young has pretty much always just been considered the best pitcher award, hasn't it? Not some nebulous concept of "value" to the team?

Verlander was 4-2 with a 3.71 ERA in September/October.

Other pitchers from those two teams:

Rick Porcello, 3-1, 3.00
Brian Duensing, 3-1, 2.70
Nick Blackburn, 2-2, 3.41

Four wins > Three Wins. Case closed!

Cy Young has pretty much always just been considered the best pitcher award, hasn't it? Not some nebulous concept of "value" to the team?

Yeah, pretty much. Despite the fact that it says "Most Valuable Pitcher" right there on the plaque.

Verlander received my first-place vote because nobody was tougher on the mound with the season on the line for his team.

The guy is nuthin' but a frickin' homer. Nobody was tougher, he says, but as this thread clearly shows, he didn't bother to actually determine whether that was true or not, because he didn't care.

He threw at least 120 pitches in six of his last eight outings and won his last three starts, forcing a one-game playoff against the Minnesota Twins with his final victory.

But then again, the season is 162 games long. How many of them don't actually matter?

Stupid stupid stupid.

Cy Young has pretty much always just been considered the best pitcher award, hasn't it? Not some nebulous concept of "value" to the team?

Then again, the best pitcher would be the one with the most value, wouldn't it?

I would have voted for Greinke too but the voter is correct. Looking at the Championship Probability Added calculations in the 2010 Hardball Times Annual book, Verlander is the only guy who already is in the AL Cy Young race who both had the opportunity to greatly impact his team's playoff chances and who performed well in that clutch situation.

The voter is correct if we accept his assertion that pitching well in a pennant race is the most important thing in determining who the best pitcher is. Especially in the way it eliminates every pitcher in the league except for the ones on the Twins and Tigers.

Looks like we need an Inspirational Horse of the Year award.

It's called the Jack Morris Award

Let's call it the Jack Morris Inspirational Horse Award and split the difference!

"When a horse learns to buy martinis, I'll learn to like horses."

I wouldn't have voted for Verlander, and Greinke was the obvious choice to me, but Verlander isn't chopped liver. Fangraphs has him as the second most valuable pitcher in baseball. I don't rate him quite as high, but this is nowhere near as bad as Bartolo Colon over Johan or something like that. Also, I agree the writer doesn't help his case for Verlander with some of his goofy reasoning.

I disagree with the writer's reasoning as well, but it's time to put a stop to the "he should have his ballot taken away" nonsense. The guy took his vote seriously and stood behind his arguments.

More important than this one vote...anyone want to venture a guess on the NL winner? I'm not really sure how it's going to go.

I disagree with the writer's reasoning as well, but it's time to put a stop to the "he should have his ballot taken away" nonsense.

Seriously. He should just be shot.

More important than this one vote...anyone want to venture a guess on the NL winner?

My prediction is that one writer will submit a goofy, non-sabermetric vote, and we'll treat that as more important than the actual winner of the award.

More important than this one vote...anyone want to venture a guess on the NL winner? I'm not really sure how it's going to go.

Wainwright's going to win, with Carpenter second and Lincecum third.

Seriously. He should just be shot.

The horse or the writer?

I'm not sure that the AL Cy Young vote is any kind of predictor for the NL results. The 32 writers who placed votes for the NL are 32 entirely different people than the 28 who voted in the AL.

I honestly don't think it will be Lincecum, though - there is precedent for writers not giving these awards to the same player in back to back seasons, except in cases of hugely obvious superiority over all others (like Pedro). Lincecum is not that far ahead of Carpenter or Wainwright in voters' minds, so I think he actually comes in third. Just my gut instinct. And the winner will be Carpenter...or Wainwright...or Carpenter...I can't decide.

Oh, and Kornacki should have just said, "I voted for Verlander because I'm a blatent homer and the guy from my team just HAD to have been the best...because he's from my team!" Idiot. At least neither Hernandez vote came from Seattle.

This is just the Cy Young version of "you had to watch all of his games to know how important he was." The reasoning doesn't check out because there is no reasoning beyond that. But he couldn't submit a column only a few lines long.

Lincecum is not that far ahead of Carpenter or Wainwright in voters' minds, so I think he actually comes in third. Just my gut instinct.

I think it'll be Wainwright since Carpenter and Lincecum have won before. I expect the writers to spread the love and acknowledge Wainwright's emergence as a star.

Lincecum is not that far ahead of Carpenter or Wainwright in voters' minds, so I think he actually comes in third.

Wainwright led in wins, and IP, and finished 4th in ERA (only 0.15 behind Lincecum). Based on that, I doubt that Lincecum is at all ahead of him in the voter's minds.

There are a lot of repeat winners in the Cy ( Maddux and RJ's 4 year stretches ). I am pretty sure the writers are going to be high with on Lincecum

nobody was tougher on the mound with the season on the line for his team

Heck, Scott Feldman was 7-0 with a 2.29 ERA in a five-week stretch of August into early September. That's when the season was on the line for the Rangers, after all.

This is just the Cy Young version of "you had to watch all of his games to know how important he was."

What is so maddening about this type of reasoning is the guy is totally oblivious to the fact that, by his own logic, he cannot possibly be regarded as competent to evaluate anybody else.

Wouldn't the conventional wisdom be that Wainie and Carp split the vote?

The guy is nuthin' but a frickin' homer. Nobody was tougher, he says, but as this thread clearly shows, he didn't bother to actually determine whether that was true or not, because he didn't care.

Yes, the only conclusion is that he must have not bothered to do any thinking. Why? Not because he didn't provide reasoning, but because YOU didn't agree with it.

These comments bashing the guy's character and journalistic integrity are hysterical.

Fight the good fight, Tigers fan!

There are very few refuges for those who wish to raise Verlander above Greinke. W-L record is one of those refuges; starts with 100-plus pitches is not one of them.

I haven't seen anyone making this "starts with 100-plus pitches" argument, least of all Kornacki.

Look, I'm as big a fan of Greinke's as anyone, and he clearly deserved to win the Cy Young — and he DID win it. If he would have finished second, I would have been upset. But that didn't happen, so I'm happy.

And in Kornacki's defense, it's possible to give a sincere first place vote to Verlander without being an idiot who deserves to have his vote taken away. It's probably a "wrong" vote (if there is such a thing), but not egregiously so.

Verlander led the league in:

• Games started
• Innings pitched
• Batters faced
• Pitches thrown

[The last three sorta go together, but he really was a workhorse, and that has plenty of value.]

• Wins (tied)
• Strikeouts (27 more than Greinke in second place)
• Strikeouts/9 IP

The traditional pitcher's "triple crown" is wins, strikeouts and ERA. Verlander took two of those categories, Greinke took one. If you divide a starting pitcher's job into "quantity" and "quality" of innings pitched, Verlander won one, Greinke won the other.

Verlander probably led the league (or at least starters) in most pitches thrown above 100 mph, which isn't a real or particularly valuable stat but is kind of exciting. He was also in the top 5-7 in just about every other significant pitching category (including ERA, WHIP, HR/9), so he was more than "just" a horse. Plus, he was pitching in a lot of high-pressure games down the stretch. Greinke and King Felix pitched in a lot of games that didn't matter. Verlander didn't pitch in any.

Greinke was better, but my gosh, it's not like Kornacki was voting for Bob Welch here.

Hometown guy votes for hometown boy. How cliché.

but my gosh, it's not like Kornacki was voting for Bob Welch here.

????
No it's EXACTLY like he was voting for Bob Welch here.

Fight the good fight, Tigers fan!

He's right, though. Verlander is not a totally indefensible choice. He's not the best choice, but it's ridiculous to be calling for this guy to lose his vote.

Fight the good fight, Tigers fan!

Look, there's no way in hell I'd have voted for Verlander over Greinke or Felix. And the reasons he gave are mostly stupid. But you can't assume dumb reasoning = no integrity. Some people just value different things than others - things that might be really stupid, but not dishonorable.

And as to the "tougher down the stretch" argument, he was referring to reliability/fortitude/some other "intangible" factor, not who necessarily pitched the best. He might be totally wrong, but it's not b/c Brian Duensing had a lower ERA or soemthing.

Verlander led the league in:

• Games started
• Innings pitched
• Batters faced
• Pitches thrown

By 1 GS over King Felix
By 1 ip over Halladay and 1 1/3 over King Felix
By 5 batters over Feliz, and 19 over Halladay
Halladay lead in shutouts and complete games

Nope, I'm sorry, the vote for Verlander was a pure homer vote.

but my gosh, it's not like Kornacki was voting for Bob Welch here.

????
No it's EXACTLY like he was voting for Bob Welch here.

I must have missed the part where Bob Welch led the league in IP and strikeouts while pitching in a tight division race. (Actually, Welch's 1990 was better than I remember, but it looks like that was really a pitchers' year.)

Nope, I'm sorry, the vote for Verlander was a pure homer vote.

I won't dispute that, but I expect a bit of homer-ism from all of the voters (that's why they have two from each city) and this one really doesn't strike me as being outrageous. There's at least a FLIMSY case for Verlander — which is better than none at all.

By the end of this thread, Justin Verlander will be the most underrated pitcher in the AL.

By the end of this thread, Justin Verlander will be the most underrated pitcher in the AL.

Sure, if you completely ignore all the people talking about how good Verlander is.

Sure, if you completely ignore all the people talking about how good Verlander is.

Well, why would you want to listen to those idiots.

But seriously, Verlander finished about where he should on the ballot. I'd personally have put Halladay ahead of him, but that's fueled by my own homerism, and the difference between 3rd and 5th on the Cy ballot is pretty trivial.

I dunno, I recall some people on this here very board touting CC Sabathia for last year's NL CYA because he was pitching complete game after complete game to lead the Brewers to the playoffs. And Sabathia did finish 5th (not a big deal) with 1 first-place vote and I don't recall much hue and cry about how f'ing stupid the writers who voted for him were.

Let's not forget that Verlander led the league in IP (something saber-types like), Ks (something saber-types almost insist on), K/9 (we like that too) and wins (we know they're utterly meaningless with no impact on the actual game but the punters like them). Take that and add "great" performance down the stretch with the season on the line and you've almost always got a CYA winner -- and rightly so.

The guy understates the quality gap between Greinke and Verlander in 2009 and overstates the quality of Verlander's late season performance but his logic is perfectly fine.

with 1 first-place vote and I don't recall much hue and cry about how f'ing stupid the writers who voted for him were.

There was some hue and cry about CC possibly winning the NL Cy.

Again, I wouldn't give much weight to the criteria of "performed well it when really impacted one's team's chances of landing a play-off slot" but it is a reasonable way to go and Verlander did well in that regard. Someone mentioned Scott Feldman and it's true that he's in the top 10 of the Champtionship Probability Added metric.

Focusing on what went right, Greinke's vote was almost unanimous, a big blow against the "vote for the guy with the most wins" movement.

Greinke and King Felix pitched in a lot of games that didn't matter.

I also really dislike the idea of figuring out which games "matter" and which don't.

Focusing on what went right, Greinke's vote was almost unanimous, a big blow against the "vote for the guy with the most wins" movement.

While you're right, there's also the caveat that Greinke was a great story and made it really easy to vote for him. People seem to like Felix, too. If Verlander the Horse had the same stats, and you put him up against some temperamental a-holes with the same stats as Felix and Greinke on non-contending teams... I don't know, maybe not so many guys see the light of the statistical advantages.

Well, Verlander is clearly the dreamiest, so he has my vote.

Let's not forget that Verlander led the league in IP (something saber-types like), Ks (something saber-types almost insist on), K/9 (we like that too) and wins (we know they're utterly meaningless with no impact on the actual game but the punters like them). Take that and add "great" performance down the stretch with the season on the line and you've almost always got a CYA winner -- and rightly so.

1 more IP than Halladay, in more GS, and Doc beat him in ERA, too, against tougher competition. Anybody who votes for Verlander has to justify why Verlander ranks higher than Halladay by any metric beyond "COUNT TEH WINZZZ@!@!@1!" I'm not shocked that Verlander picked up the votes he did; I am shocked that this voter would be such a blatant homer about it.

1 more IP than Halladay, in more GS, and Doc beat him in ERA, too, against tougher competition. Anybody who votes for Verlander has to justify why Verlander ranks higher than Halladay by any metric beyond "COUNT TEH WINZZZ@!@!@1!"

1. More innings (barely)
2. More strikeouts (by a ton)
3. Better HR/9 IP
4. More games started (by 3)
5. Better opponents' AVG, SLG and OPS
6. Better record (and better team record in games started) despite worse run support

They have similar resumes, but I don't think it's hard to find an argument for Verlander over Halladay. The problem, of course, is using those same criteria to justify Verlander over Greinke and Felix.

Well, Verlander is clearly the dreamiest, so he has my vote.

The Official BTF Dreamy CYA Rankings

1) Greinke
2) Verlander
3) Felix

And trust me boys, it ain't close for any of the three spots . . .

How soon they forget the sweet face of Randy Johnson...

Let's not forget that Verlander led the league in IP (something saber-types like)

Player IP ERA
Justin Verlander 240 3.45
Roy Halladay 239 2.79
Felix Hernandez 238.2 2.49
C.C. Sabathia 230 3.37
Zack Greinke 229.1 2.16

See that would be a good argument if Verlander lapped the field like, oh, Halladay in 2003.
I mean he had 10 2/3 more IP than Greinke, and gave up 35 more runs, how does that make Verlander better?

The guy took his vote seriously and stood behind his arguments.

So what? So did Mussolini.

If Verlander the Horse had the same stats, and you put him up against some temperamental a-holes with the same stats as Felix and Greinke on non-contending teams... I don't know, maybe not so many guys see the light of the statistical advantages.

So when this happens, can we blast the voters for screwing the more deserving candidates because they dislike them, or are we required to blast them for not understanding who was better?

Why does the number of pitches thrown matter? Isn't it about getting people out, not how many pitches it takes you to do it? In '98 should Maddux have thrown more pitches in his sub-100 complete games?

In '98 should Maddux have thrown more pitches in his sub-100 complete games?

He took himself out of the game too soon.

Greinke threw superb in games when the season was on the line for the Royals. The thing is when the season is on the line for the Royals may be a few months ahead of the rest of league.

So what? So did Mussolini.

I had no idea Mussolini was a bocce writer.