This isn't going to end well.

Nice Jeff Kent story.

"Scully & Wooden?" Hating on David Duchovny like that is harsh, man.

If T.J. Simers DOES die tomorrow, Andruw Jones will be able to write his ticket to the Hall of Fame. "Yeah, leave me off your ballot, fatty... I dare you."

They're like the west coast version of Mariotti - Guillen or Shaughnessy - Schilling, it's tough to decide who to dislike more...

This is pretty awesome.

I'm shocked that Simers wrote about himself in his column.

They're like the west coast version of Mariotti - Guillen

No way. Simers actually talks to the people he rips.

So what's Simers approach he follows players around the field, the dugout, the clubhouse, the showers the toilets, saying insulting, inflammatory crap, hoping the player will blow up?

It would be worth a 10-game suspension to take a poke at him, no jury would convict unless a bat was used, even then I'd like to see it.

I don't think W.C. Heinz would have written this column.

“I don’t care,” he said. “You play for the team, you don’t play for the fans. The fans never played the game. They don’t know.”

I'm sorry, but Andruw Jones said that, and everyone here is piling on themselves to rip Simers? Excuse me, but I'll save my fire for Andrew F'ing Jones. Screw him. You don't play for the fans, pal? As far as I'm concerned, each and every player who says that deserves each and every boo and rip from the stands that comes his way. You think that, Mr. Player? You that disdainful of the people who give a damn about the game and love the hell out of it, even if they "don't know" and are (half the time or more) ignorant of what it takes to play and how hard you work and how damned deadly hard it is to hit a major league pitcher's stuff?

Fine. Still . . . Is it that hard to keep your ridiculous mouth shut about it?

Good for Simers. Every time a player says something like that, he deserves an old-fashioned ripfest full of every possible unfair slam that even the soulless Dick Young couldn't imagine delivering on his blackest night.

What Sam M. said. It works both ways. Without the fans, no one would be willing to pay Jones millions of dollars to hit or field a baseball, and he'd have to have the same humdrum existence most of the rest of us face, without any risk of T.J. Simers or anyone else commenting on how we do our jobs.

Fine. Still . . . Is it that hard to keep your ridiculous mouth shut about it?

Did you read the baiting? Good for Simers?

It was stupid of Andruw to say, but he didn't actually say it until the 5th time he was asked the exact same question by an obnoxious "reporter."

Did you read the baiting? Good for Simers?

Fair enough. I take back the "good for Simers" part. The baiting sucks, sure.

But Andruw Jones is not some rookie who should be baited by that nonsense. Walk the hell away. Or better yet, be smart enough to smile at the SOB and say, "Of course I play my heart out for the fans, and I'm doing my best to help the team win." Then walk away.

You say what he said, you deserve the rip job. You don't deserve to get baited into saying it in the first place, but you deserve to get ripped. If you're Andruw Jones, there's just no excuse for letting a punk like Simers bait you.

I'm tired of fans whining all that weak #### about how "we pay their salaries" and "without us there would be no games." ########! #### you! If you don't want to spend the money, stay the #### home! And shut your mouth. Sports fans eat ####.

Sports fans rate even lower than the media and the franchise owners on my scale of miserable, ####-eating vermin. Here's the descending hierarchy: athletes, sports media, team owners, fans. Fans on the bottom. Most sports fans are fat, ignorant, beer-soaked, loudmouth, racist, white male cocksuckers, and they're totally unnecessary to the playing of the games.

The athletes are the only players in sports who count; they're the only ones who are indispensible. Everyone else is superfluous. Think about it. The entire pro-sports sewer began because groups of men got together and played these games in parks, vacant lots, and gyms simply for the fun of it. No money involved; just personal bets. And if today, all the owners, media, and sports fans suddenly disappeared, the athletes would simply go back to the parks, vacant lots, and gyms and play the games by themselves. No one else is necessary.

Of course, if they did, the usual dull people who lack direction would stand around watching, and some businessman would get the idea of charging admission and giving the players a tiny percentage of the money, and the whole miserable pool of steaming liquid #### would start all over again.

Andruw is by all accounts a nice, quiet kid. It's to his freakin' credit he hasn't punched Simers by now.

And if today, all the owners, media, and sports fans suddenly disappeared, the athletes would simply go back to the parks, vacant lots, and gyms and play the games by themselves. No one else is necessary.

But they'd all need day jobs and wouldn't need to deal with fans or reporters. That's part of the tradeoff.

Most sports fans are fat, ignorant, beer-soaked, loudmouth, racist, white male cocksuckers, and they're totally unnecessary to the playing of the games.

First of all, how does this rate the fans below the sports media in this "descending hierarchy" the author describes? That pretty much describes Bill Conlin to a "T."

But second, what's wrong with white male . . . . Oh, never mind.

The Dodgers were actually supposed to get a Care package with Jones, but he ate it on the way to LA.

I think athletes should have respect for fans, and Andruw's comments were pretty ill-advised

But for me, the most annoying thing about professional sports are the fans. Everyone's always telling them they're always the victim, it's gotten to the point where I think most fans believe it

Jones is a fat pig who deserves to be ripped. I loved it.

Jones is a fat pig who deserves to be ripped. I loved it.

Well, yes, but does he poop his pants? That's the question here.

“I lost my power, I suck, I should retire.”

You said it, Chubbins, not me.

"Look at your belly hanging out of your shirt," Jones said. "You're probably going to die tomorrow."

"Not before I write this column," I said.

I audibly laughed.

"If you think that's what I've got, warning-track power, then write it down," Jones said, and it always helps when I have a player's permission to criticize him. "I lost my power, I suck, I should retire."

"I hope you're not waiting for me to disagree with you," I said.

Then Jones went out, and struck out on three pitches in his first appearance at the plate. I wonder if he cared.

As sportswriter disses go, this is pretty good.

“You play for the team, you don’t play for the fans.

Weird. While it's a politically stupid thing to say, I agree with this 100%. What Jones should be focused on is playing his best and doing what his team asks him to do to help them win. Whether that pleases the fans should be of no concern to Andruw.

Given in the last few seasons we've seen the "fans" boo Carlos Zambrano, Alex Rodriguez, Carlos Delgado, even Derek Jeter ... how is it even possible to "play for the fans". Not to mention that the "fans" want to see Joba pumping his fist, Manny showboating his HRs, etc. ... and they also want to see their pitchers throw at guys who do that.

Andruw owes his best effort to his Dodgers teammates and the Dodgers organizaation (the people with whom he's signed a contract).

I would love for a player to tape record their conversations with Simers. I have a feeling that he a) makes it sound much less jerkish on his part and b) makes himself sound a whole lot more clever and quick-witted.

The players should bring custard pies in the clubhouse and just push one into Simers' face every time he pulls his confrontational shtick. It's not hitting him. It's just a pie. It's harmless.

And I agree with Walt Davis. The fans make the finances of the game posible but Andruw's playing for the Dodgers not the fans.

The fans make the finances of the game posible but Andruw's playing for the Dodgers not the fans.

This sounds absurd to me. In what way is the success of the Dodgers team relevant except to the degree that it contributes to the entertainment value to the fans? It seems to me you cannot play for the team without also playing for the fans.

Given in the last few seasons we've seen the "fans" boo Carlos Zambrano, Alex Rodriguez, Carlos Delgado, even Derek Jeter ... how is it even possible to "play for the fans". Not to mention that the "fans" want to see Joba pumping his fist, Manny showboating his HRs, etc. ... and they also want to see their pitchers throw at guys who do that.

So because baseball has, at worst, fans in a vocal minority who may be misguided, the players should disregard all of them? This sounds like a baby/bathwater situation to me.

The Dodgers are the ones actually paying Jones. If they want him to stay fat and hit .170 with no power, that's what he should do, regardless of what the fans think.

If they want him to stay fat and hit .170 with no power,

Would they be willing to bid this out? Because I am totally willing to do that for the MLB minimum. Except for the .170 part, I'm already there.

I don't recall Bonds saying things like this.

The Dodgers are the ones actually paying Jones. If they want him to stay fat and hit .170 with no power, that's what he should do

It's a clever strategy to make the Juan Pierre contract look good.

Andruw owes his best effort to his Dodgers teammates and the Dodgers organizaation (the people with whom he's signed a contract).

Giving your best effort IS playing for the fans. This is a completely false dichotomy. It is, in fact, the very falsity that is reflected in Andruw Jones's comment, and when it comes from a player, it is offensive and harmful to the game. It is no more in the interest of the organization to alienate its fans with comments like that than it is to offend them with a lack of effort on the field or a lack of commitment to staying in shape in the off-season.

I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone associated with the Dodgers would think Jones's comment was anything but harmful to the team, and thus inconsistent with the very obligation of Jones giving his "best effort" to that organization.

I think we're all on the same page here.

Jones owes a 100% effort at all times to the Dodgers, which in turn should help the Dodgers win more, which makes the fans happy.

I think Jones' attitude is one I would want players on my team to have. Focus on winning, don't worry about the fans and how they feel about you, it will only serve as a distraction. The fans enjoy winning, so just take care of that and nothing else will matter.

On the other hand, Sam is right, this is a terrible thing to actually SAY. Part of being a professional sports franchise is pandering to the schmucks who pay for the seats and treating them as if they actually matter. I'm sure the Dodgers organization is not pleased at all with Jones' public comments.

(Just as a note, I do realize that fans "matter" in that if they don't show up, no one gets paid. But I think I've just hit a level of frustration with fans at this point in the season where I need to vent about them. Being a Jays fan I've been talking to a lot of people who are frustrated with the team and treat me like I'm a boob for still enjoying watching a game. As if my complacency and lack of anger on internet message boards is encouraging the Jays to accept failure. We need a good dose of old fashioned political apathy in our sports fans! How someone can feel their vote doesn't matter, but their attitude towards their local sports team does is beyond me.)

My apologies for the rant

If you work at a store, you serve the public quite directly and making them happy is very important, but you work for the store. You would make the customers very happy by undercharging them. Or you might make them angry by having to enforce unpopular policies, such as 90-day return limits, no smoking in the store, etc. But your job is to charge the right prices and enforce the rules, even though it's the customers' business that pays your salary.

Darren, you're presenting the exact false dichotomy that Sam was talking about. Jones isn't saying that he plays for the team and not the fans, and that's why he doesn't throw baseballs into the stands (hey, those cost money!) The fans and the team have the same interest here.

The fans and the team have the same interest here.

No, they don't. Simers tells Jones that the fans have "turned on him." He says he doesn't care about that, and he shouldn't. The Dodgers haven't turned on him, and fickle fans don't determine his playing time. Yes, he should care about playing better, and playing better will make the fans like him, but that should be an indirect consideration for him.

Jones also said he doesn't care what Simers thinks, which is the same thing. Life would be pretty damn stressful for a player if he let idiot sportwriters and booing fans get to him.

No, they don't.

Yes, they do.

Simers tells Jones that the fans have "turned on him." He says he doesn't care about that, and he shouldn't. The Dodgers haven't turned on him, and fickle fans don't determine his playing time.

You and I can have the same interests without showing the same patience. As you note, him playing well again will turn the fans back onto him. In the end, that doesn't negate the point that the fans and the team have the same interests, just that one may or may not show more patience or understanding when those interests aren't met.

You and I can have the same interests without showing the same patience. As you note, him playing well again will turn the fans back onto him. In the end, that doesn't negate the point that the fans and the team have the same interests, just that one may or may not show more patience or understanding when those interests aren't met.

You're missing the context of the question. He says he doesn't care about the fans turning on him. The interest of the fans in turning on him is not to make him play better; it's to express their displeasure by booing him. The team, on the other hand, is interested in letting him play through his slump in the hope that he plays better.

The question wasn't about the broader context of fandom, it was explicitly about them "turning on him." Do you think he should care about the fans turning on him beyond it simply being a symptom of him sucking? Do you think that would help him play better?

You're missing the context of the question.

I'm not, actually. I'm just simply arguing against Darren's analogy in #37. I don't find it analagous because he presents a situation where there are divergent interests (like the one I present in #38), and I don't see a proper argument that that applies in this case.

The interest of the fans in turning on him is not to make him play better; it's to express their displeasure by booing him. The team, on the other hand, is interested in letting him play through his slump in the hope that he plays better.

I don't think you're arguing that the fan's interest in voicing their displeasure overrides their interest in seeing him play better (which would dovetail with the interest of the team); if you are, it's an interesting argument. I don't particularly think that it's true in the vast majority of the cases.

The question wasn't about the broader context of fandom, it was explicitly about them "turning on him." Do you think he should care about the fans turning on him beyond it simply being a symptom of him sucking?

No, not particularly, but that wasn't the case I was making.

The question wasn't about the broader context of fandom, it was explicitly about them "turning on him." Do you think he should care about the fans turning on him beyond it simply being a symptom of him sucking? Do you think that would help him play better?

I think he should recognize a sucker question when he hears one. Or, if you prefer, the Wargames scenario: the only winning move is not to play. He should have said to Simers, "How about a nice game of chess?" and walked away. That's what being baited is all about, and a veteran player has no excuse for letting himself be put in that position.

I think he should recognize a sucker question when he hears one. Or, if you prefer, the Wargames scenario: the only winning move is not to play. He should have said to Simers, "How about a nice game of chess?" and walked away. That's what being baited is all about, and a veteran player has no excuse for letting himself be put in that position.

As I said way back in #13, I agree it was a stupid thing for Jones to say. But I don't think he's wrong.

-----

I don't think you're arguing that the fan's interest in voicing their displeasure overrides their interest in seeing him play better (which would dovetail with the interest of the team); if you are, it's an interesting argument. I don't particularly think that it's true in the vast majority of the cases.

He wasn't asked about the fans' interest in the team or the fans' interest in seeing him play better. He was asked about the fans turning on him.

This is a story 100% created by and reported by TJ Simers. He continually goaded a guy into saying something in a less-than-optimal manner. This is what he does -- 95% of his columns are "I insulted Guy X and he said Thing Y." The other 5% are "I talked to Guy X and he said Thing Y", and those can be readable. This is in a good year.

The players should bring custard pies in the clubhouse and just push one into Simers' face every time he pulls his confrontational shtick.

Get real. Just how long do you think a custard pie would last in the vicinity of Andruw Jones' Amazing Technicolor Dream Stomach?

Really? It turns out if you goad someone who was known to be smiling all the time thus far in his career, and publish the worst 5 inutes of his interactions he'll look like a dick. Whatdyaknow about that?

I cannot believe anyone thinks they get more than birdcage lining from teh MSM.

This is a story 100% created by and reported by TJ Sime

you forgot "written about"

It turns out if you goad someone who was known to be smiling all the time thus far in his career, and publish the worst 5 inutes of his interactions he'll look like a dick. Whatdyaknow about that?

A couple of points.

First, that is precisely why players (veterans, in particular) have to be smart and savvy enough to know which writers are the Simers-types, who do exactly that. And walk the #### away. Because they WILL publish the worst of the interactions, spun the worst possible way, with total control of everything interjected between the quotes. Andruw Jones cannot possibly win when he says he doesn't play for the fans. That is reason # 2 he shouldn't say it -- that he was saying it to Simers. Reason # 1 is that even if he believes he is playing for his team, saying it hurts his team, which doesn't want him saying it.

Second, notice how Joe "Mr. Players' Manager" Torre hung Jones out to dry in this column. Giving Simers -- of all people -- the quote, "I think he could have been in better shape." is the equivalent of telling the fans it's open season on Jones as far as the manager is concerned. There are a million ways Torre COULD have ducked it. He chose not to.

I cannot believe anyone thinks they get more than birdcage lining from teh MSM.

Not everyone is like Simers and Plaschke. You just have to look a little longer and plug your nose to the stench while you do. And hope the search isn't in vain. Many days, it is, unfortunately.

Sam,
I only half believe those things were said at all. If Simers will write like this, he'll certainly be liberal with the way he writes it.

It's *completely* untrustworthy.

I only half believe those things were said at all. If Simers will write like this, he'll certainly be liberal with the way he writes it.

The only reason I tend to think he probably has accurate quotes -- that he doesn't cross that one line -- is because of the impact it would have on his ability to work if he DOES cross it. That would give the players the excuse they need to totally freeze him out if they can nail him for actually making #### up. Taking it out of context, spinning it in a wildly misleading way? That's "fair game," in his mind. The line he (probably) thinks he can't cross is to make up the words. It's sick, but a line is a line.

That would give the players the excuse they need to totally freeze him out if they can nail him for actually making #### up. Taking it out of context, spinning it in a wildly misleading way? That's "fair game," in his mind.

Frankly, all I know of Simers is what I see here on Primer. As Lawabahoo points out, it seems that it's nearly 100% #### "reporting" like this. I don't see how they don't already have an "excuse" (I don't think it'd be one, it'd be a very valid reason) to freeze him out. Why talk to this guy, period?

Sam M., I hear what you're saying, but I think you're holding Jones (and all ballplayers) to an impossible standard. Who here hasn't at one time or another posted something on the internet that was a less-than-optimal expression of what we felt, in a less-than-optimal manner? And that's typing things out. A player (or indeed anyone) can be as cautious as they possibly can when talking to the press and still have things come out wrong, as the election cycle seems to point out monthly.

Personally, I find my outrage at Jones' comments registering in the negative. With a few exceptions, I root for laundry. I expect any Cub to work hard, try to win, and not give a damn about me, because in the long run, if trading that player will ensure the laundry I root for will win, then I'll support trading him. My feelings on fan-entitlement are largely summed up by Greg Maddux' School of Reflexive Profanity in #15, without the cursing and cynicism.

Sam M., I hear what you're saying, but I think you're holding Jones (and all ballplayers) to an impossible standard.

Maybe I'd be a bit more forgiving if he'd been talking to say, Michael Wilbon -- a responsible reporter/interviewer with whom I could imagine Jones letting his guard down and maybe saying something without really realizing it and being surprised at how it came out.

Simers??? If you don't do what Jeff K. advocates and just freeze his ass out, then surely you are going to watch every word, and you are especially going to do that in the context presented in that column, where Simers was obviously goading him into intemperate remarks.

Anyway, I guess I'm persuaded by some of the arguments here to cut Jones a bit of slack. But only a bit, and only because of how incredibly outrageous Simers is. It's still amazingly bad stuff for a player to pull.

Maybe I'd be a bit more forgiving if he'd been talking to say, Michael Wilbon -- a responsible reporter/interviewer with whom I could imagine Jones letting his guard down and maybe saying something without really realizing it and being surprised at how it came out.

I have to agree with Sam here. This is like (Warning: Exaggeration ahead) knocking on a door, seeing that guy from "To Catch A Predator" there, and walking into the house. It's bad joojoo, and if you walk in, I've not got a ton of sympathy for you, no matter if the editing process later unfairly makes you look like a pedophile.

You know that perfect "aw, when he said that, I should have said that" squelcher you think of three hours too late? Simers is apparently the only guy on Earth with a 1.000 batting average on those. He's like an entire Algonquin Round Table of Tell Me Why You Suck, all by his lonesome.

And he couldn't be exaggerating these exchanges or restructuring them to look worse, because that would run the risk of antagonizing the people he writes about. And what would become of Simers' style and career without friendly access?

Wake my outrage when ANY second source not named "T.J." reports that Andruw Jones said what he said. Or did Simers and Andruw have this funny little chat under the Cone of Silence where no one else could hear the quotes?

I have to agree with Sam here. This is like (Warning: Exaggeration ahead) knocking on a door, seeing that guy from "To Catch A Predator" there, and walking into the house. It's bad joojoo, and if you walk in, I've not got a ton of sympathy for you, no matter if the editing process later unfairly makes you look like a pedophile.

It's really more like the guy from "To Catch a Predator" following you around waiting for you to say or do anything that could be construed as pedophilic.

And what would become of Simers' style and career without friendly access?

I actually like Simers because of his ballsy style, but I wonder how he gets "friendly" access. I would love to know if his reconstructions of conversations really go as he presents them; whenever I read him, I wish I'd been a fly on the wall.

For example, this conversation with Jones is no different from the ones I've seen in the past between Simers and Kent, and yet he seems to be on pretty good terms with Kent.

So the new standard for journalism is that there has to be a 3rd party witness to any reported conversation, to validate the quotes? There goes most of the ground-breaking stories in sports over the last several years.

So the new standard for journalism is that there has to be a 3rd party witness to any reported conversation, to validate the quotes?

Actually, that would probably improve journalism. (There is very little you could do to journalism that could possibly make it worse, though.)


By the way, what are these ground-breaking stories in sports?

So the new standard for journalism is that there has to be a 3rd party witness to any reported conversation, to validate the quotes? There goes most of the ground-breaking stories in sports over the last several years.

Actually, yes, recording these conversations (AFAIK) used to be the std. It would have helped Novitzky's case if he actually recorded people saying they discussed the juice with Bonds (or if McNamee had).
And it is for me - if it isn't verifiable, then it's mostly crap (mostly - there are some exceptions that merely get the "grain of salt" adjustment).

MISSED THE Lakers' weekend in Salt Lake City to go out for dopos with the granddaughter, who was carried off in the middle of the night to Arizona a few months ago by the Grocery Store Bagger and former daughter. Just how bad is it living in Arizona?

Over doughnuts, when I asked the 7-Eleven Kid, she told me,


"My favorite place is Home Depot."

LMAO! ..

Classic Simers..

I might accept a well respected reporter get away with an unrecorded quote, but a guy like Simers? I'd want a recording and notorization that it is legit.

"Scully & Wooden?"

This actually sounds really good. I just got tickets the other night and I'm flying in from Chicago to visit my parents and go to this event. If you're not from L.A. it's probably not a big deal, but as a UCLA fan, and a Scully fan (even though I've never cared for the Dodgers), it should be a lot of fun. It's really a once in lifetime (or at least once more in a lifetime) opportunity.

Really? It turns out if you goad someone who was known to be smiling all the time thus far in his career, and publish the worst 5 inutes of his interactions he'll look like a dick. Whatdyaknow about that?

Yet he's on good terms with the guys who always seem sullen and difficult, like Jeff Kent and Garret Anderson. And that's primarily because those guys know how to handle him. I'm telling you from experience, if you get annoyed by him, he's going to needle you more and more, and then probably eventually write about it. If you tease him back and laugh him off, he doesn't write about you. If from the first question ("have you lost anything), Jones had said something like "Hey, I'm working on it, but ya know, it's not easy for us old guys", the conversation would have taken an entirely different tone.

I actually like Simers because of his ballsy style, but I wonder how he gets "friendly" access.

It's probably two reasons. First he works for the biggest rag in the Western U.S. and that carries some weight. Second, he's generally on good terms with team leaders and the main clubhouse guys (like the aforementioned Kent and Anderson). Not coincidentally, those guys also happen to be veterans who know how to handle the media to a certain extent.

whats lost on all of this is, we are talking about Dodger fans.
nobody gives a chit about Dodger fans.

they show up in the 3rd inning and leave in the 7th, is not a myth. Its true! watch any dodger game beginning to end. You'll see it.

and during the three innings they are in their seats, they are doing the wave, and smacking around beach balls.

its dodgerfans, so who cares Tubbo is right.

You keep swinging from your knees !!

I'm telling you from experience, if you get annoyed by him, he's going to needle you more and more, and then probably eventually [do something] about it. If you tease him back and laugh him off, he doesn't [do anything] about you.

This is a textbook description of how to deal with a schoolyard bully. That's pretty much all you need to know about Simers's style.

they show up in the 3rd inning and leave in the 7th, is not a myth.

I suppose they could quit their jobs so that they could leave their houses early enough that sitting in traffic for an hour or more on the way to the game wouldn't be a problem. Or could just learn to enjoy the hour or two drive home that they have if they wait until after the ninth ends to leave. Sleep, work, who needs 'em? Real fans don't care if the act of going to a ballgame takes up more than 6 hours of their day.

My $0.02... the Jones contract did not appear in a vacuum. Andruw did one day drive to Dodger Stadium and decide, like some kind of groupie, to appear on the 25-man roster. Somebody had to sign him.

Likewise, somebody had to sign the man who signed Jones.

I can't recall a single major free agent signing of Colletti's that has worked out. Extending Kent, maybe, and even then you have to wonder.

Colletti must be fired, but the chances of the team hiring a qualified GM are remote. McCourt had a competent GM but fired him after only one year of bad luck and a losing season.