“I was talking to some people the other day,” Amaro recalled, “and I said, ‘I’m not a dummy. I know what Cliff Lee means to our rotation in addition to Halladay and [Cole] Hamels. It’s a no-brainer.’ … Our goal is to be a contender every year — not just to be a competitor, but to be a contender every year. That’s really my job. As an executive of the club, it’s my job to do what I can to try to maintain that level of talent on the club and that hope from the fans. So, yes, I’d like to have a championship, but not at the cost of having our organization not be good for 10 years. Absolutely not. That’s not the goal. The goal is to be a contender every year. And once you get to the World Series or get to the playoffs, it’s really a matter of who’s playing the best baseball, who’s hottest, who has the karma.”
I’ve covered the Phillies for five years, and for five years, I’ve heard team president David Montgomery say the same exact thing. Sure, the Phillies would love to win the World Series every year. But to them, having a chance to win it every year is more within their control than actually winning it.
Last night, Amaro made a point of saying, “We cannot be the New York Yankees. We have to have people that we can bring to the big leagues from our system.” Translation: The Phillies can’t buy championships. They can’t have a $200 million payroll, and with the 2010 payroll nearing a club-record $140 million and $131.25 million already committed to only 15 players for 2011, they need to begin preparing to replace various parts of their championship-winning nucleus.
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Amaro's strategy is the Atlanta Braves strategy of being competitive every year, and that hasn't worked out too well fan wise for the Braves, in that Atlanta denizens eventually got tired of the permanent teasing of going to the playoffs every year but not advancing (or at least that's a theory out there).
Now granted, Philly is a very different city from Atlanta, but I still think Philly would have positioned itself better long term with Delaware Valley denizens if it had gone for broke.
Two other things that I think the Phillies should do: 1. Try to expand Citizens Bank Park by 500 to 1,000 seats, since demand is outstripping supply for park seats;
2. Open up your own club store in Center City (or Historic City).
Recently I was driving from Baltimore/D.C. to NY, and wanted to buy some Phillies stuff, but the only official club store I could find was in Citizens Park, which was a major detour which I was unwilling to make.
(Unless somebody corrects me, I've always figured that teams keep some of the profit/mark-up from sales of merchandise in their own store, as opposed to buying stuff at a general sports store, where all of the profit goes to the MLB common pot).
I have two conflicting riffs on that thought:
1. The Phillies have a role model in town in the Eagles. Very Braves-ish track record and the fans are losing interest -- the fans (not just the plentiful yahoos, either) would shiite-can the HOVG coach and the HOVG QB because "we" "know" that the two will never win the Supe.
2. IIRC, Atlanta's attendance was never great, even when they were on the rise, so I don't know if they are the greatest model for the Phillies.
Your two suggestions seem to be no-brainers -- no offense :)
Maybe he's referring to Michael Karmas of the 1939 Salisbury Senators.
Alternatively, a team store in King of Prussia mall would make a lot of sense, too.
Isn't that what a "no-brainer" means?
(6), I tend to think that Philly is more like Boston than Atlanta, for a number of reasons, BUT Boston has the advantage of a miracle team in 1967, the 1975 team, the 1978 team, the 1986 team, the late 80s/early 90s Roger Clemens/Wade Boggs teams, the late 90s/early 00s Pedro Martinez teams, all the way out to the 2004 "Bloody Sock" Sox (and the 2007 team, too).
The Phillies have had some success (the late 70s teams, the 1980 WS team, the Wheez kids of 1983, the 1993 team), but until this run, it doesn't look like they've ever had a team which is designed for long term sucess in that market. THAT's why I think the Phillies should have gone all-in and try to have a monster run (2008-2011, say), that allows Delaware Valley denizens to truly grab onto.
They're part of the way there (two WS appearances and one world championship does that), but they're not there yet.
Unfortunately, a stop in Philadlephia will always be a detour in driving from Baltimore/DC to NYC. If you drive 95N from Philly it just kind of peters out somewhere in central NJ. To get to the NJ Tpke from Philly requires a few highways and about 20 minutes.
Agree with your suggestion, though. Now's the time to do it with real estate prices depressed and Phandom at a high.
Well, point is valid on 1967, which saved baseball in Boston, and 1975, but it's hard to imagine 1978 and 1986 doing anything but driving fans AWAY from the team, never mind the other near-misses in the 1970s and the first-round sweeps in 1988, 1990 and 1995. In fact, from 1986-02, the Sox were very Bravesian. And the early 1990s teams may have had Clemens and Boggs, but they were awful. Other than the flukey bright spot of 1995, the Sox were nothing exciting between 1991-1997. Even having Pedro and Nomar, the Sox were incredibly frustrating to watch from 2000-02. It was great that the Wild Card era had allowed the Sox to make the playoffs an extra couple times, but when the current management took over in 2003, the Sox hadn't won a pennant since 1986, and had a cumulative postseason record since Game 5 of the 1986 World Series of (somewhere around) 5-22, including an all-time record 13 straight postseason losses from 1986-95.
In 2003, Theo Epstein took over and initiated a strategy of being in contention every year without breaking the bank to win in any given year. The result has been six playoff trips in seven seasons (best in club history), two World Series wins, and a postseason record of 34-20. So, it seems like Amaro is on the right path by pursuing a similar strategy.
The counterpoint might be that Theo broke his own rule in 2004, seeing that his coulda-been-champs-but-for-Grady-Little 2003 team was aging and that '04 could be the last chance for a while of winning it all, Theo splurged by signing Keith Foulke and pushing hard to sign Schilling to an extension. The result was blissful, of course, and as might be expected that team broke down at the end of 2005 and collapsed entirely in 2006.
A KoP store makes a lot of sense though.
On the way down we did a similar thing, waylaying at KoP.
(10) I disagree about 1978 and 1986, because I think both those teams fed into the narrative of the cursed Sox. And even though the Red Sox got bounced early on in 1988 and 1990, they were part of the post-season dance, which kept fan interest up. That's the difference, as I see it, between the Phillies and Red Sox: interest in the Red Sox was very, very high in New England 10-15-18 years prior to the Sox winning in 2004 and 2007, which is not necessarily the case with the Phillies, until very recently (to keep it within the last quarter century, 1993 is an island of relative success surrounded by big disappointments for Phily fandom until very recently).
Really, the Phillies don't really need to follow Boston's path, because they already won the WS and got to the Series the next year. What they need to do is ensure that their market is properly tapped and primed to support them, in which case they will have the money to compete every year (both because they'll have money to develop players and to keep their players).
(11) Technically, yes, but as above, I wanted to get to Independence Mall (and had I had time, I would have taken my son to the Franklin Institute). South Philly is a big detour just to buy some Phillies crap, which you can buy anywhere in town (e.g., there's a store in the Philly Bourse where I bought some Phillies caps, right next to Independence Mall).
At least we agree on KoP. I seldom crossed over to Jersey, but perhaps a Phillies store in Cherry Hill (or a similar location) could tap that market.
It is subject to lots of argument whether the three prospects received from the Mariners will help in 2011-2013. However, I think it's clear that a championship in 2010 would support attendance only in 2011 . But if the wheels fall off the team, and it plays under .500 ball in subsequent years, attendence drops from 3.6 Million, to 2.0-2.5 million very quickly, and that would start the terrible cycle of lower attendence, causing a cut in payroll, causing more losing,causing a further drop in attendence, and on and on......
Dividing the Schmidt-Carlton teams into three separate events seems very artificial to me. If you told me that I had the choice between:
1) A decade with a .557 winning percentage, six postseason appearances, two World Series and a World Championship, or
2) "long term success"
I would want a few more details about option 2 before I made up my mind.
also, some other considerations are that mcnabb, vick, and kolb all are on the last year of their contracts. there's no option to keep mcnabb for one more run, and then go with kolb after 5's contract expires. kolb is gone if the job isn't his this year, and considering he's 25, while mcnabb is 35, i know which one i'd rather have.
Sure, but "long term success" is no guarantee either. The prospects they got for Lee are just that - prospects. And there's no guarantee they'll even have a good team around those prospects if they do pan out.
I would have made the big push for this year. Heck, there's no rule that says you can't deal Lee this summer if you don't feel like you have a championship team. Or you could get draft compensation in 2011 for him. Going for it all and keeping an eye out for the future need not be mutually exclusive.
I did that on purpose, because the 1976 Phillies seem like a very different animal from the 1983 Phillies to me.
(If I'm reading things right, the only 4 players from the 1976 team still on the 1983 team are Carlton, Schmidt, Gary Maddox and Tug McGraw).
The problem with the Phillies ISN'T that they had a great run from 1976 to 1983. It's that with the exception of 1993, the Phillies didn't make the playoffs at all from 1983 to 2007.
There's no way a franchise can keep its fandom engaged through 24 seasons of not going to the playoffs (though 2005 and 2006 were upticks).
Also, I was not proposing that the Phils go all in during 2010 and 2011 and then mail it in: I was proposing that the Phils go all in NOW AND keep on developing players through their farm system/keep a highish payroll ($130MM is decidedly nothing to feel embarrassed about).
it'll be interesting what happens with ibanez, werth, victorino, francisco, mayberry, brown, and gillies next offseason. werth's being right handed makes him by far the most valuable, but he's also a free agent after 2010's up. i could see this year being the last run with ryan howard and shane victorino. in 2011, move ibanez to 1B, put domonic brown in LF, werth in right, and gillies in center.
it's also possibly in the plans to trade howard, move utley to 1B, polanco to second, and find a real third baseman.
Bold prediction, considering Victorino just signed for 3/22.
I worked for two guys from Philly about 15 years ago. Big Phillies phans. 1976-78/80-83 was their dichotomy, the 80-1983 team won because that team had chemistry (and Pete Rose) and 1976-78 did not. I thought they were morons but was nonetheless fascinated.
My opinion (which they thought was just me being a Mets fans trying to jerk their chain), was that 80 was basically the same team as 76-78, only with a bit of luck, and that 83 was a team that made the playoffs in spite of Pete Rose.
What really fascinated me was their attitude towards Mike Schmidt, an attitude I've since seen in other (but not all) Phans, "overrated, strikes out too much, couldn't get the team over by himself, and NOT A WINNER"
Before then I'd always regarded the Phans (all Philadelphia Sports Fans really) as the type who'd boo Santa Claus, but I just thought that was general mean spirited orneriness...
but than I added insanity on top of that.
I've been told by more rational phans that philly fans, being a blue collar bunch ethics wise- value effort more than anything, and even see value in the appearance of effort even when there are no results...
It's a pity that Drew didn't sign, if the Phillies had caved, and offered what he wanted, and then he played, as he always does, without the appearance of effort, taking days off for hangnails... the sheer magnitude of the venom and hatred Phillies Phans would have worked up would have dwarfed any other display of emotion in any sport for the history of the world- JD Drew and the Phans would truly have been a marriage consummated in hell, pity it never happened.
but they talk about mike schmidt like lots of astros fans do about lance berkman - not a "leader" (whatever the eff they mean by that) and he isn't "serious" and he is fat (not, not and NOT)
it's his nose that does it.
Slightly different time periods and fans for Schmidt and Howard, Baseball Chick (and arguably, Philly is a somewhat different town today than it was in the mid-to-late 70s).
interesting that the phillie fans don't seem to have any trouble with ryan howard and all his strikeouts
RBIs, baby. There is a muted buzz about the strikeouts but you hafta accept them to get his "production" you know.
but they talk about mike schmidt like lots of astros fans do about lance berkman - not a "leader" (whatever the eff they mean by that) and he isn't "serious" and he is fat
No one ever called Schmidt fat. :)
"Serious" wasn't exactly the charge against Schmidt but that he didn't care. He was obviously having little fun in his early years so he was considered serious. Weird, weird dynamic that all was.
It's a pity that Drew didn't sign, if the Phillies had caved ...
So true. It would have been the very definition of hilaripy.
The clutchiness is part of the equation too. Howard has his best numbers in September, including the two Septembers when they overcame the Mets. He's also at .271/.379/.542 for the playoffs, including the long RBI streak this postseason. Schmidt hit .236/.304/.386 in his Octobers.
1976-78/80-83 was their dichotomy, the 80-1983 team won because that team had chemistry (and Pete Rose) and 1976-78 did not. I thought they were morons but was nonetheless fascinated.
Schmidt doesn't exactly help himself here, what with his idolatry of Rose. He ALWAYS cites Rose as the decisive force that led the 1976-78 teams that fell short to the 1980 title. Which is odd, because after getting Rose, they immediately ended their three-year streak of making the playoffs in 1979, then took until the final weekend to make it in in '80 and basically required a perfect storm to beat the Astros in that year's NLCS. Though I guess it's eye of the beholder in Philly ... did their luck turn for the better in 1980, or were they winning winners because of Charlie Hustle's presence?
That could very well be true, but that doesn't actually mean he will be good. We'll see. I like Gillies a lot. I also really liked Andy Marte. And Justin Huber. And Joe Borchard.
I don't think that the Phils would have offered arbitration -- they couldn't have afforded to even win (EDIT: arbitration) on the budget they have set.
Unless Cliff Lee blows out his shoulder this year, I'm pretty confident he would have rejected it. There is pretty much no downside to offering it - Lee is going to look for a long-term deal next winter, and even if its a down economy, someone will give it to him.
And even if he accepts, I still think they can afford it if they move some other guys. If bringing back Lee for one more year means you have to trade Shane Victorino...well I think I'm comfortable with that.
It's not a bad place today on the brief times I've visited, but Philly in the 70s/80s was a vile, tense place- just gave off bad vibes, very unfriendly...
Just my subjective opinion, but people there did not seem to like/trust themselves or anyone else, it's hard to explain. NYC wasn't so great in the 70s early 80s either.
The majority of Phillies I know who were Phans BACK THEN believe so, religiously.
What is Historic City?
Downtown in Philly is called Center City (it's not really downtown, other than in the sense that it has some large office buildings) and the Penn/Drexel Area as University City.
As for the team store I don't see much point to it. It is easier and cheaper to simply license the goods and let the hundreds of different stores sell it.
No e.
Well, there goes another Connie Cola memory.
In re: the team store, the problem with licensing goods (AFAIK), is that all that money goes to the common pot of MLB.
AFAIK, team's own store has the advantage (to the team) that the team keeps the mark-up on items sold (i.e., doesn't have to share it with the Jeffrey Loria's of the world).
The 1980 team also had manager Dallas Green, who was Toughlove personified. I think the Phils won the '80 WS just to get him off their backs once and for all.
That doesn't seem to deter the thousands or tens of thousands of sports apparel stores around the U.S. and Canada.
And do all those sports apparel stores simply sell one brand? No, they sell golf clubs, fishing polls, footballs, helmets, shoes, so on and so on. They are a 12 month a year operation that caters to all sports. If one sport declines they decrease the floor space to it and increase the shelf space to the sports on the rise. A store dedicated to selling Phillies apparel is selling to one market and one market only.
Again, why open your own store and bear all of the costs and liabilities of owning that store when you can simply do nothing and cash checks left and right?
And if you get a good location, then you can sell a large amount of fairly high margin items like fitted baseball caps at any time (that's why someplace like KoP makes a lot of sense, because that mall has a ton of people pretty much at all times).
Which then gets disbursed to all the teams. So everytime a Cardinals jersey gets sold the Phillies get a piece of that.
EXCEPT (AFAIK) to the extent you are selling out of your own stores, in which case you earn the mark-up (I've written this a bunch of times up thread, you know).
And if you get a good location, then you can sell a large amount of fairly high margin items like fitted baseball caps at any time (that's why someplace like KoP makes a lot of sense, because that mall has a ton of people pretty much at all times).
And KoP already has stores selling your gear. Basically what you are advocating is that Phillies become their own competitor and for what? Increased costs, increased liabilities? Again for what? So they make an extra 20 thousand a year? How much money do you think one Phillies outlet is going to make each year? And what is the advantage of a PHILLIES store over a Dick's or a Modell's or a Foot Locker or a Wal-Mart? Why would someone who is shopping in KoP spend $150 on a Phillies jersey in February at the Phillies outlet when they can go to Modell's and get it and 10 other things they want and also happen to be on sale? Do you honestly think that Phillies merchandise is not already offered at KoP? The only advantage an outlet would have is if they offered the goods cheaper and MLB and their commercial partners are not going to allow that. So again what you are advocating is that the Phillies open up a shop that offers goods that are already commonly available at pretty much any place you would think shold offer these kinds of goods.
And lastly it is these so called "high margin" stores that are struggling right now. I believe Lids, which sells what you believe to be highly profitable fitted caps, is about to declare bankruptcy and is going to have a bunch of their stores close.
I'd close the tunnel from the nearby hotel which allows free access to the stadium.
But then how will I be able to deliver my letters to Chase Utley?
'
I feel like I can call you Chase because you and me are so much alike. I would love to meet you some day. It would be great to have a catch. I know I can't throw as fast as you, but I think you would be impressed with my speed. I love your hair. You run fast. Do you have a good relationship with your father? Me neither. These are all things we can talk about and more. I know you have not been getting my letters because I know you would write back if you did, and I hope you write back this time and we get to be good friends. I am sure our relationship would be a real home run.
Yes, they get 1/30th of that.
AFAIK, if a team sells MLB products in its own store, MLB gets its share of the cake, but the team alone gets the remaining 29/30ths from the mark-up of that direct sale(surely you realize that a baseball cap or a baseball Jersey costs a fraction to produce than what its sold to the public, right?).
KoP probably has stores which sell Philies gear (I couldn't find any on January 10th, when I was there - there was only Eagles and Flyers merchandise on sale), but (and I'll write it again, to see if you get it), the Phillies would be getting the mark-up of that sale. Not Modell's or Dick's or Wall-Mart.
So they are earning more because: (a) They are getting the full store mark-up on that sale, plus (b) 1/30th of the apparel sale.
So no, the Phillies would not be competing against themselves, and have little downside vis-a-vis what they are getting from the MLB common pot (the downside is the cost of salaries and space rentals).
The $20K figure is a strawman that you just made up, and which I won't address.
Ok, so if I understand you, people only go to one store when they go to a mall. Right (i.e., there's no reason why people can't go to BOTH a Phillies store and Moddell's). Plus, when you have a big mall, not every customer will want to walk the whole damn thing, and may simply choose to purchase the item they want wherever they first see it.
I'm sure Phillies stuff is on sale at KoP during the regular season, but there's no devoted place where you can market the heck out of the product.
There's a bunch of Yankees stores all over Manhattan, surrounded as they are by sport apparel stores, and they still do brisk business (and I really don't think the Yankees would be in the business of setting up their own stores just to make $20K a year - the Yankees also use their stores to sell memorabilia and tickets to games).
The BIG advantage of a team store is taht you market the heck out of it, on your website and that you get the full mark-up of what is being sold.
Finally, I didn't call them high margin stores. You made that up.
I said that these stores sell high margin ITEMS, and they do (circa $30 to $35 per fitted baseball cap, which is decidedly not what it costs to make these things)
And the fact that a chain of stores is going under does not mean that specific stores were unprofitable: to throw out a generic comment and try to apply it specifically is a pretty bad debating ploy.
How many millions of dollars a year do the Phillies bring in?
Hey great they made 10 bucks on a Phillies hat. Great, now they just need to sell another fifty thousand for that to mean something. You are only going to sell so many things with a Phillies logo on it and despite what you think the Phillies will be competing with every Tom, Dick, and Mo's out there.
Retail is hurting right now and you are proposing to open up a retail clothing store that has its money makers setup in the high end side of retail. Selling a 3 dollar key chain ain't going to mean squat to them.
The BIG advantage of a team store is taht you market the heck out of it, on your website and that you get the full mark-up of what is being sold.
So on your website you market the heck out of it and then what? You expect them to go to KoP instead of simply ordering it online right there on your website? Really?
I lived in Philly for 7 years. I had no problem finding Phillies stuff at any time during the year and I wasn't there during the good Phillies years either.
Do you think they're doing it just for $50K a year per store?
I don't think Philly has the volume that NYC has, but KoP is a prime place because it gets so much traffic.
You are setting up another strawman, when you say that the Phillies have to sell 50,000 caps for it to be worth their while, when they will be selling all sorts of other items. And why does wringing every dollar that a team can get offend you?
You state that retail is hurting right now. Ok, I'll bite - is it hurting in the King of Prussia area? Because whateve ris happening in Phoenix or Miami (or even Franklin Mills) doens't have anything to do with the King of Prussia area..
As to going to a store when you can buy something on the internet, perhaps you are stuck in 1999 and think that the interwebs will mean people no longer go places to buy stuff if they can buy them on the internet, when in fact, people often use the internet as a way to find a store to browse and personally buy what they want.
Finally, if you'd read my posts above (which you dont' seem to do), you'd notice that I did buy Phillies stuff in a shop inside the Philly Bourse. What I didn't find is Phillies stuff in KoP, earlier in my trip.
Philadelphia's all right if you like leaving.
(My effort at being Repozian)
And KoP ain't cheap because it gets that traffic
Do you think they're doing it just for $50K a year per store?
How much profit do you think small retail stores make per year?
You are setting up another strawman, when you say that the Phillies have to sell 50,000 caps for it to be worth their while, when they will be selling all sorts of other items. And why does wringing every dollar that a team can get offend you?
Okay, what are they sellling and what is the volume? I'm not setting up a strawman I'm pointing out that to make any kind of real money requires a lot of volume. The Phillies are not some Greek diner they are a multimillion dollar a year company. Opening up a store is going to add pennies to their bottomeline and get them involved in a business they currently are not in.
You state that retail is hurting right now. Ok, I'll bite - is it hurting in the King of Prussia area? Because whateve ris happening in Phoenix or Miami (or even Franklin Mills) doens't have anything to do with the King of Prussia area..
Yes, King of Prussia is a magical place immune to the greatest economic disaster to befall America since the Depression.
As to going to a store when you can buy something on the internet, perhaps you are stuck in 1999 and think that the interwebs will mean people no longer go places to buy stuff if they can buy them on the internet, when in fact, people often use the internet as a way to find a store to browse and personally buy what they want.
You keep arguing about scraps. Put in an outlet because maybe somebody will walk by and decide they want something. Oh the internet will funnel all these people in the Philly area who aren't going to buy something online and aren't simply going to go to Dick's or Foot Locker or wherever but specifically to your one outlet in KoP mall.
If you can't find it in KoP mall then you weren't really looking. Again, I never had a problem finding Phillies gear at KoP mall.
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