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Sunday, September 13, 2009

Lenny Dykstra to hock Mets 1986 World Series ring to raise money for debts

Cash-strapped Lenny Dykstra’s latest money-grab comes with a familiar ring to it.

The bankrupt ex-ballplayer is auctioning off memorabilia from across his storied 12-year career - including his diamond and gold 1986 World Series championship ring.

The bidders are unlikely to include the nearly two dozen businesses and individuals who charge the hardnosed player known as Nails bilked them of millions of dollars.

The most amazin’ item available is Dykstra’s 10-karat World Series ring, symbolic of the Mets’ stunning defeat of the Boston Red Sox.

The sparkler - valued at $20,000 - bears the Mets logo, Dykstra’s name and familiar No. 4, and the words “New York Mets, 1986 World Champions, 116 Wins.”

Thanks to Booder.

Repoz Posted: September 13, 2009 at 05:46 PM | 3829 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
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   701. Joe Bivens, Schmoo from Massachoosetts Posted: September 15, 2009 at 10:43 PM (#3322926)
It's a trap!
   702. bunyon Posted: September 15, 2009 at 10:43 PM (#3322928)
Ah, health care. I wondered how Nails had generated this many posts.


Anyway, abortions for some, tiny American flags for others.
   703. bbc is prejudice bout men Posted: September 15, 2009 at 10:44 PM (#3322929)
zonk,

it is me doesn't have ins. i know that if it is the twins and they have to go in hosp, we can most likely get the emergency medicaid or the childrens help fund. but there is nothing for plain ol poor non-pregnant adults
   704. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder. Posted: September 15, 2009 at 10:45 PM (#3322931)
bbchick, you should get a better job and you will have health insurance. Problem solved. That was easy.
   705. zonk Posted: September 15, 2009 at 10:54 PM (#3322944)
Ah, health care. I wondered how Nails had generated this many posts.


Anyway, abortions for some, tiny American flags for others.


We settled that on page 3. Neither the abortions nor the tiny American flags will be subsidized under the bill.

I thought we had reached detente about 2 pages ago, when Snapper suggested what seemed to generally be a partially nationalized provider system for the bottom X%. However, then Szym and Nieporent arrived in force and are threatening a filibuster of the whole effort. JPFW and MCoA are valiantly trying to hold the moderate coalition together. There was some discussion on whether Bush = Hitler or Obama = Hitler, but I believe we've amended all mentions of Hitler from the bill.

Oh yeah.... there was pretty good Keefe back on page 2 or 3 -- but it's near certain to get dropped in committee.
   706. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: September 15, 2009 at 10:58 PM (#3322948)
bbc- None of this is legal advice, it's merely an approach that may be helpful.

The key is to send something- even a 20 dollar monthly check- to let the hospital know (through your conduct and not your words) that you want to pay the bill but you can't. This generally does 2 things (1) keeps the bill away from the collection agency, and (2) lets the hospital know you're not a deadbeat. Both are hugely important, if you get stuck with an agency it's a much more difficult situation to deal with. Likewise, if the hospital's people feel like you're blowing them off- they won't be very interested in helping you.

Next, get in touch with the hospital's "person" as Bernal suggested. Tell him/her that you want to pay, that you can't pay, and that you would do anything to work out a deal to help the hospital collect on their efforts. Be ready (if you're willing) to document your financial situation. More than likely they'll offer a plan that you still can't afford- beg and barter as best as you can and get that pay plan down as low as possible. Once you've got a plan- pay on it if you can. If you can't pay in full- make payments, even if their just the $20 token payments.

The key to being a debtor (especially when you don;t have the means to keep up) is to be as available and forthright as possible (I know it's hard when you're scared that you can't pay the bill- but you got to do it.) Imagine if someone owed you money, would you more willing to work with someone who stayed in touch with you, or someone who ignored you?

That's as much genius as I'll bore you with right now. If you want to ask me something more specific- feel free to send me an e-mail.

EDIT- 703 contains words to live by when dealing with hospitals
   707. The Grich Who Stole Christmas Posted: September 15, 2009 at 11:06 PM (#3322960)
This thread basically reads like the scene in The Big Lebowski where Lebowski is yelling at The Dude: "Condolences! The bums lost. My advice is to do what your parents did: GET A JOB, SIR."
   708. zonk Posted: September 15, 2009 at 11:12 PM (#3322967)
zonk,

it is me doesn't have ins. i know that if it is the twins and they have to go in hosp, we can most likely get the emergency medicaid or the childrens help fund. but there is nothing for plain ol poor non-pregnant adults


Ah - sorry sounded like a mistake in billing you were trying to deal with... which are far too common. In that case, however, Bernal's right... let him get you the best depts to talk to at the hospital. You might also ask about charity care options -- many hospitals will not tell you it's an option unless you explicitly ask, but about 2/3 of hospitals participate in various such programs. These are generally instances where the patient doesn't qualify for Medicaid because income is too high, but don't have private insurance. Hospitals that participate in such programs then report these cases to CMS to qualify for additional payments and factor into Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement rates. What this would mean to your bill will largely depend on the specific hospital and whatever Texas' Medicaid program says --- but generally, you can qualify up to 3 or 4 times the poverty line for some sort of bill relief.

If it was a community/'public' hospital, chances are near certain that they participate in a charity care initiative. If a private, fp hospital - chances are less, but still possible.

My brother, in Brooklyn, who doesn't have insurance, but doesn't qualify for Medicaid, was recently approved for such a case.... His bill was reduced by half.
   709. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:02 AM (#3323072)
The key is to send something- even a 20 dollar monthly check- to let the hospital know (through your conduct and not your words) that you want to pay the bill but you can't. This generally does 2 things (1) keeps the bill away from the collection agency, and (2) lets the hospital know you're not a deadbeat. Both are hugely important, if you get stuck with an agency it's a much more difficult situation to deal with. Likewise, if the hospital's people feel like you're blowing them off- they won't be very interested in helping you.
I agree with most of this, except insofar as you're discussing collection agencies. Obviously it's better to head it off before it gets there, but collection agencies are very willing to work with you on partial payment plans. They buy debt for pennies on the dollar, and anything they get is gravy. Unless you have a home with significant equity, they have little chance of recovering most of it. Garnishment of wages is a joke as far as creditors are concerned, in most states, and to achieve it, they'd need to go to court and get a judgment first, which means they have to lay out even more money. They'd rather take a fraction of the debt, paid out over time.
   710. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:22 AM (#3323085)
Interesting David. I started practicing with a firm that had started out as a collection firm and all the new associates got to do some collection work. Almost every time I got a debtor on the phone and starting talking about some kind of plan, the debtor would tell me that they wanted to do that but the collection agency had been totally inflexible (they were frequently able to document this as well.) That's also been my experience when representing someone who's got the empty wallet.

It may be just my experiences, or a California thing, but I tend to think that most collection agencies use a lot of unskilled folks who are basically working with a script and a "guideline" settlement. These guys can't get much done for you and they tend to give the impression that the agency is inflexible- which heightens the fear and embarrassment of the whole process.

In any case, the key is that medical debt is much easier to deal with than virtually any other kind IME.
   711. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:31 AM (#3323095)
In any case, the key is that medical debt is much easier to deal with than virtually any other kind IME.
I agree, because the hospitals are willing to work with you before the fact, rather than after.

As for the collection agencies, yes, they hire a lot of script-reading drones, but that's just to make the initial calls and scare the debtors. The trick is not to worry about those, because, well, so what? (If they keep harassing you, then you have an FDCPA issue, and there are plenty of lawyers out there who specialize in those, and don't charge clients a cent.) You have to get past those people, and then you get to those with flexibility. The basic point is this: these firms only make money if they get you to pay something without any hassle on their part. Once they have to try to involuntarily collect (i.e., go to court), they're going to be losing money on the deal, particularly if you know enough to stall the court proceedings. (Don't let them get a default judgment.)

The only truly hard debts for debtors to deal with are the ones for continuing services, where the creditors have real leverage -- the ability to cut you off (i.e., phone companies, utilities, etc.) or evict you.
   712. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:31 AM (#3323188)
I don't doubt the price tag, but I refuse to believe that anyone can get in and out of an ER in 10 minutes.
FWIW, neither makes sense in conjunction with the data I've seen. Particularly the time spent.


I dropped a knife into the back of my leg once and it took probably two hours in the ER to get two stitches and something like $1500 billed to my company's workmen's comp insurance.
   713. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:47 AM (#3323199)
Bankruptcies are pretty easy if you have nothing. But when you do have some things and you lose them (your house say) plus add the bad credit, it can be pretty harsh. In addition, most people are raised to pay off their debts, work hard, and it can be quite traumatic. The social stigma is pretty harsh.

For some but then you have a former coworker of mine who got a bunch of credit cards and drew cash out of the accounts instead of buying things and then went and bought the items for a start up photography business and transferred anything of value of his to his girlfriend and then declared bankruptcy and left a bunch of people holding nothing much like Lenny F'in Dykstra. Thankfully the guy died without getting to retire.
   714. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:58 AM (#3323201)
Being poor is supposed to suck. If it was cushy more people would do it.

I'm making no value judgment on the person who posted this or their reasoning, truly. I don't think I'm morally right and they're wrong or anything of the sort. I would just like to point out that this is why I consider myself a fairly extreme social liberal


The point isn't that I think anybody is lazy or doesn't want to work. The point is that if you remove the hardship that comes from being poor or you make it easier to live poorly then you basically have to do it for the rest of time and then you'll have to do it for more and more people. Human beings only function close to properly when there is an incentive to do something. If you remove the prod to do something they'll sit there and fling poop at each other.
   715. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:17 AM (#3323207)
That's true of some humans, and for others it isn't. What about people who inherit large amounts of money in trust funds, but still have a significant scholarly career, for example? Also, there would always be undesired social stigma attached to being helped by any government program, and no government program would ever be nearly as good as earning money yourself and spending it as you see fit. Very few people who are actually capable of doing anything productive see dependence on public assistance as an acceptable long-term situation.

(Unless you see lottery winnings as public assistance.)
   716. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:33 AM (#3323210)
What about people who inherit large amounts of money in trust funds, but still have a significant scholarly career, for example?

What about them? They pursue a scholarly career because they don't actually have to work anymore. So they sit around and read books and speak french to one another. There is a movie made by some rich heir of the Johnson and Johnson company which looks at rich kids of rich families and what their lives are like. This kid upon his 21st birthday or something like that would gain access to his trust fund and the millions and millions that were in it. On the eve of that event he goes and asks his dad, who has never worked a day in his life, what he should do with his life. His dad, who again has never worked a day in his life, gives what I thought to be the funniest father-son talk I have ever heard. He says something to the affect that he could dabble in painting since he seemed to kind of like that. It goes on like this for most of the conversation. The father has absolutely no idea what his child should do because there is nothing serious for his son to do with his life.

But being rich and having nothing to do is an incentive to do something meaningful with one's life. Which is why you see some rich people get heavily into fundraising or into scholarly activity becuase doing so gives them meaning.

Also, there would always be undesired social stigma attached to being helped by any government program

Except the government and various other programs have tried very hard to remove that stigma. I remember reading a book about welfare or one of the other helping hand type programs and how initially people were reluctant to enroll in the program so the government went on a campaign to convince people it was okay to take the money/help. Enrollment skyrocketed. Secondly from own anecdotal evidence very few people have any problem with taking money from the government. While I lived in Philadelphia a ton of people I worked with were basically raised on the government dole or were currently being subsidized by the government. If they were ashamed about it they did a very good job of hiding it. When I was in school I lived with a guy who was basically letting the government pay for the raising of his two kids while he sat around and smoked pot and drank fine wine. Plus this ######### let his wife work as a bartender so they could have some cash while he "devoted" himself soley to school. Around tax time we got into a discussion about taxes and what you could and couldn't do and during this conversation he showed me his tax returns for the last 3 years. I was blown away. I had made more in 3 months of work than he did in three years of work and during those 3 years he got his wife pregnant twice and had two kids. Yet he never felt compelled to go out and make money to raise his kids. He had the government do that for him.

Now obviously he isn't the norm it is just anecdote I wanted to share. But I do think once you remove the incentive to get the hell out of your bad situation it creates problems that can be just as big or bigger than the original problem.
   717. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM (#3323276)
Plus this ######### let his wife work as a bartender so they could have some cash while he "devoted" himself soley to school. Around tax time we got into a discussion about taxes and what you could and couldn't do and during this conversation he showed me his tax returns for the last 3 years. I was blown away. I had made more in 3 months of work than he did in three years of work and during those 3 years he got his wife pregnant twice and had two kids. Yet he never felt compelled to go out and make money to raise his kids. He had the government do that for him.

Now there's someone who needs a good tasing.

If you have children and won't support them the government should arrest your ass and put you on a chain gang cleaning streets and repairing roads. Preferable in the hottest/coldest ####### places we can find. If our tax dollars have to raise your kids, you should not be sitting home playing x-box and smoking pot. And you should certainly not be left in a position where you can have more kids.

I think the rate of extra-marital pregnancy would drop precipitously if the guys knew it was no ####### free ride.
   718. RayDiPerna Posted: September 16, 2009 at 12:06 PM (#3323283)
Also, there would always be undesired social stigma attached to being helped by any government program

Except the government and various other programs have tried very hard to remove that stigma.


MCoA seems to be working overtime in this thread to remove the stigma.
   719. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: September 16, 2009 at 12:23 PM (#3323290)
McCoy/715: That sounds more "reasonable". Though, 2 hours - not bad. (Sigh....)

Incidentally, I'm glad you referenced r.s.b a ways back, Dan - it got me to google a few of my old posts. First one I saw was a long thread debating the virtues of Derek Jeter v. Rey Ordonez. [Surprise! I picked Jeter (as did Nieporent, among other posters).]
   720. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 16, 2009 at 12:38 PM (#3323304)
I love this talk of "stigmas," as if that necessarily motivates people.

Anyone want to discuss how the stigma of illegitimacy is faring these days?

There's an inherent contradiction that permeates our culture (and nearly all cultures outside the Islamic world, for that matter): We bombard everyone 24/7 with advertisements and entertainment that promote every socially destructive character trait one can imagine, defend it to the death on constitutional and philosophical grounds, and then turn around and pass scathing judgment on people in real life who don't have the capacity (or the finances) to live this sort of a lifestyle and still be able to function on a self-sustaining financial level.

Oh, how we love to mock them. And heaven forbid if they should ever get a penny of our precious tax dollars.

If this sort of society only existed on a remote island in the South Seas, our anthropologists would have a field day trying to figure out its internal logic. And yet it all seems so perfectly "normal" to those of us who live in the middle of it, especially to the networks that spend 80% of their time cashing in on the same sort of behavior that they spend the other 20% of their time decrying.

As the old cliche goes, it's so corrupt it's positively thrilling. But brother, can we ever put on a show....
   721. JPWF13 Posted: September 16, 2009 at 12:40 PM (#3323306)
For some but then you have a former coworker of mine who got a bunch of credit cards and drew cash out of the accounts instead of buying things and then went and bought the items for a start up photography business and transferred anything of value of his to his girlfriend and then declared bankruptcy and left a bunch of people holding nothing much like Lenny F'in Dykstra. Thankfully the guy died without getting to retire.


Yes, but every now and then people like that do get caught...
   722. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 12:42 PM (#3323311)
Anyone want to discuss how the stigma of illegitimacy is faring these days?

There's an inherent contradiction that permeates our culture (and nearly all cultures outside the Islamic world, for that matter): We bombard everyone 24/7 with advertisements and entertainment that promote every socially destructive character trait one can imagine, defend it to the death on constitutional and philosophical grounds, and then turn around and pass scathing judgment on people in real life who don't have the capacity (or the finances) to live this sort of a lifestyle and still be able to function on a self-sustaining financial level.

If this sort of society only existed on a remote island in the South Seas, our anthropologists would have a field day trying to figure out its internal logic. And yet it all seems so perfectly "normal" to those of us who live in the middle of it, especially to the networks that spend 80% of their time cashing in on the same sort of behavior that they spend the other 20% of their time decrying.

As the old cliche goes, it's so corrupt it's positively thrilling. But brother, can we ever put on a show....


It's not "normal" to me; I still adhere to traditional morality (of the Catholic kind). But that only serves to get me pilloried around here.

I think our society is well into its "Roman Empire" decadence phase. I just hope some crisis will wrench us out of it before we pass the point of no return.
   723. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:04 PM (#3323333)
<deleted>
   724. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:09 PM (#3323338)
The economic model I hope we avoid in my more paranoid moments is late 16th century Spain. Granted - they're from pretty different starting points (economic policy; our wealth is less, ummm, illusory?), but still...

Oh their wealth was real, it just didn't reside in Spain. The Spanish Habsburgs controlled Flanders (modern Belgium) and Northern Italy which were the two principal manufacturing centers, and richest areas, of the era. The American silver was also a very real source of wealth (though they had a major problem converting it into gold, as most expenses, especially military, had to be paid in gold). The Genoese played a major role in this, sending the silver all the way to China (who used silver as currency) to find enough gold.

A major mistake was Phillip II moving his capital from Flanders (where Charles V resided) to Madrid. It put him way too far "from the action".
   725. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:18 PM (#3323345)
If this sort of society only existed on a remote island in the South Seas, our anthropologists would have a field day trying to figure out its internal logic. And yet it all seems so perfectly "normal" to those of us who live in the middle of it, especially to the networks that spend 80% of their time cashing in on the same sort of behavior that they spend the other 20% of their time decrying.

As the old cliche goes, it's so corrupt it's positively thrilling. But brother, can we ever put on a show....


It's not "normal" to me; I still adhere to traditional morality (of the Catholic kind). But that only serves to get me pilloried around here.


Of course some of us still adhere to traditional morality, though usually on an ad hoc basis, and of course anyone who does that will "get pilloried around here."

I hope that what I wrote wasn't taken to say that there aren't pockets of resistance to all forms of socially destructive character traits, because clearly there are. You can see evidence of that right here in this thread.

But the point is that the way our culture operates these days, those with traditional values---be it a belief in the nuclear family or a belief that society has a moral obligation to provide a social safety net---are at an inherent rhetorical disadvantage. It's so much easier to shout "Get a job" than it is to explain why that's not exactly the answer to all of our problems. And as you seem to have learned, it's also very easy to snark at people who actually take things like marital vows seriously and have the nerve to argue that two parent families might actually not be a bad idea for society to encourage.

What it boils down to is a de facto modus vivendi between "The two wings of FOX", as we might call it for simplicity's sake. The commercial side of it promotes the crass and the dumb, and is defended (if not approved) by doctrinaire first amendment champions, primarily on the Left. And the chastising side of it (which of course is also a highly commercial enterprise) lets them (and their Republican friends) pretend that the first side doesn't really exist.

And then for those of us who see through all that bullshit, they buy us off with The Simpsons and endless re-runs of Seinfeld. It's almost enough to get us to forgive them for McCarver, who can shill and chastise in the same sentence along with the best of them.

(Hey, I never said I wasn't part of the problem.)
   726. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:19 PM (#3323346)
I think our society is well into its "Roman Empire" decadence phase. I just hope some crisis will wrench us out of it before we pass the point of no return.

I wouldn't count on it. Remember that Dan Snyder is only 43.
   727. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:20 PM (#3323349)
Arrgh! The delete came too late!
It was real (wealth as in $), but it was unearned in the sense it didn't arise from superior ag, or volume of industry, or military might. Philip II felt the need to empire build w/o setting up the social pillars to sustain it. Plus, the leisure class swelled, blah blah blah.
Note: I haven't read / thought seriously about this stuff in over a decade - which is why I opted to delete the original post - I don't trust my memory.
   728. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:27 PM (#3323354)
It was real (wealth as in $), but it was unearned in the sense it didn't arise from superior ag, or volume of industry, or military might. Philip II felt the need to empire build w/o setting up the social pillars to sustain it. Plus, the leisure class swelled, blah blah blah.
Note: I haven't read / thought seriously about this stuff in over a decade - which is why I opted to delete the original post - I don't trust my memory.


You should do the reading, as it is a very, very interesting era. Our history in the US is heavily biased by a Britain centric/Protestant centric view of things. In reality, Britain was a backwater until the 18th century, and all the action took place in France, the Low Countries and Germany.

In fact, much of the Habsburgs' (to say Spain is a misnomer, it was a true multinational empire) wealth/power was real. Flanders and Italy were exceptionally productive and wealthy. Their issue was imperial overstretch. They fought France (the great superpower of the day) the Dutch, the English, the Turks, for centuries. It eventually wore them down.
   729. Jeff K. Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:31 PM (#3323360)
Stupid Flanders.
   730. JPWF13 Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:32 PM (#3323362)
It was real (wealth as in $), but it was unearned in the sense it didn't arise from superior ag, or volume of industry, or military might.


It did arise from superior military might though....

Anyway, much of the wealth of OPEC nations is unearned and illusory in the same sense- they just happen to sit on stuff other people find valuable- most of those nations have done squat with that money insofar as investing in and creating an economy that's based on something besides pulling stuff out of the ground.

Spain's problem was that the wealth did derive from superior military might, it was predicated on Spain's ability to move in and take over- once they were no longer able to do that...

England got far far far more out of its colonies than Spain did out of theirs- Spain was seemingly mostly interested in plundering the lands it conquered, England set theirs to work.
   731. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:33 PM (#3323364)
what I thought to be the funniest father-son talk I have ever heard. He says something to the affect that he could dabble in painting since he seemed to kind of like that.

I'm pretty sure I saw this doc, and it was a bounty of unwitting self-parodies. IIRC, during that conversation the dad suggested that the son consider collecting historical maps for a "living."
   732. JPWF13 Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:36 PM (#3323369)
You should do the reading, as it is a very, very interesting era. Our history in the US is heavily biased by a Britain centric/Protestant centric view of things. In reality, Britain was a backwater until the 18th century, and all the action took place in France, the Low Countries and Germany.


And if an alien visited the Earth prior to the 15th century it would view all of Europe as backwater- the real action would be in China, India and the Middle East.

Of course appearances can be deceiving- we have the benefit of hindsight, until the 18th Century Britain very well may have been a second rate power at the time, less advanced, smaller economy, less Universities etc... But what was going on in England was in the long run, more important than what was going in the Low Countries etc.
   733. kthejoker Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:37 PM (#3323370)
Inheriting millions is also a pre-existing condition.
   734. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:39 PM (#3323376)
I have, it's just been awhile. My stack of unread books at home contains a Carlo Cipolla book that (IIRC) hits that era, but who knows when I'll get to it (it's behind Infinite Jest and Underworld in my "queue" so the answer may be 'never').
The imperial overstretch was part of what I was getting at, though I don't tend to lump the various wings of the Habsburgs together.
   735. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:41 PM (#3323378)
Spain's problem was that the wealth did derive from superior military might, it was predicated on Spain's ability to move in and take over- once they were no longer able to do that...
Well, that's the easy part isn't it?
   736. Bob Dernier Cri Posted: September 16, 2009 at 01:43 PM (#3323381)
All I know about the Hapsburgs is that the Knights Templar sent them a falcon every year. And not an insignificant live bird, but a glorious golden falcon encrusted from head to foot with the finest jewels in their coffers.
   737. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:01 PM (#3323403)
About once a month my wife gets a letter from different patients who submit hardship requests, requesting forgiveness of a piece or all of the tab. These are often younger people, say college students. Sometimes its $150, sometimes it is $1,000. My wife almost always rejects them, and responds with a counter suggesting a payment plan, whether it is $1 a month, or something more aggressive. She works in an out-patient surgery center where much of these are elective, this isn't ER trauma where a pedestrian just got run over by a drunk driver. Just curious if the consensus sides with the patient or physician in these scenarios.
   738. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:07 PM (#3323408)
I've never heard of elective surgery where you don't have to pay in full up front.
   739. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:10 PM (#3323413)
Inheriting millions is also a pre-existing condition.

The law in all its noble majesty, etc....
   740. Gaelan Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:18 PM (#3323419)
But the point is that the way our culture operates these days, those with traditional values---be it a belief in the nuclear family or a belief that society has a moral obligation to provide a social safety net---are at an inherent rhetorical disadvantage.


The problem is that in the United States the people who believe in the former do not trust the government to provide the latter. For instance in this thread, as far as I know, I am the only one in this thread who supports both of those things.
   741. Quiet Flows the Don Taussig Avenger (Edmundo) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:19 PM (#3323420)
And not an insignificant live bird, but a glorious golden falcon encrusted from head to foot with the finest jewels in their coffers.
Ah, the stuff that dreams are made of.
   742. AROM Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:28 PM (#3323431)
Stupid Flanders.


I'm doing a lot of catch-up reading on this thread. I read some good and mostly serious posts like Andy talking about the multifaceted Fox entertainment empire, then Snapper's historical points on Europe.

Then Jeff K. posts this, and it's absolutely perfect. Could not stop laughing. Moments like this are why I love this site.
   743. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:29 PM (#3323434)
That was a good one (I liked the Maltese bit too).
   744. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:34 PM (#3323439)
I've never heard of elective surgery where you don't have to pay in full up front.


Believe it or not some of these are those that are insured, but 'can't afford' the deductible.

Or they agree to a payment plan prior to the surgery, and then after the surgery say, 'I can't afford this.'
   745. zonk Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:39 PM (#3323445)
Stupid Flanders.




I'm doing a lot of catch-up reading on this thread. I read some good and mostly serious posts like Andy talking about the multifaceted Fox entertainment empire, then Snapper's historical points on Europe.

Then Jeff K. posts this, and it's absolutely perfect. Could not stop laughing. Moments like this are why I love this site.


Yeah, that was about as perfect as it gets.
   746. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder. Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:45 PM (#3323454)
Believe it or not some of these are those that are insured, but 'can't afford' the deductible.

Or they agree to a payment plan prior to the surgery, and then after the surgery say, 'I can't afford this.'


Those people need to get better jobs.
   747. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 16, 2009 at 02:55 PM (#3323468)
Stupid Flanders.



I'm doing a lot of catch-up reading on this thread. I read some good and mostly serious posts like Andy talking about the multifaceted Fox entertainment empire, then Snapper's historical points on Europe.

Then Jeff K. posts this, and it's absolutely perfect. Could not stop laughing. Moments like this are why I love this site.


Yeah, that was about as perfect as it gets.


And not only LOL perfect, but a perfect two word summary of the point I was trying to make. You could almost say that "Stupid Flanders" is our National Motto.
   748. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:06 PM (#3323481)
But the point is that the way our culture operates these days, those with traditional values---be it a belief in the nuclear family or a belief that society has a moral obligation to provide a social safety net---are at an inherent rhetorical disadvantage.

The problem is that in the United States the people who believe in the former do not trust the government to provide the latter. For instance in this thread, as far as I know, I am the only one in this thread who supports both of those things.


I see what you're getting at, but that depends on how you frame the word "supports." I'll argue the superiority of the traditional man/woman/child(ren) nuclear family with anyone, and I think that anyone who doesn't see illegitimacy as a serious problem is deluding themselves, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to want to outlaw cohabitation or gay marriage.

And even though I think American Idol is the embodiment of every false delusion you can imagine, and that reality TV in general is a plague of nearly Biblical proportions, it doesn't mean that I'd want to censor it out of existence. It does mean, however, that I"d support vastly increased funding for Public television, insipid as it may be at times, as a counterweight, and as an alternative to all the dreck that commercial TV brings us.
   749. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:10 PM (#3323489)
"That's not the "general" welfare; that's one guy's welfare."

Not if you do it for everybody, it's not.
   750. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:13 PM (#3323491)
But the point is that the way our culture operates these days, those with traditional values---be it a belief in the nuclear family or a belief that society has a moral obligation to provide a social safety net---are at an inherent rhetorical disadvantage. It's so much easier to shout "Get a job" than it is to explain why that's not exactly the answer to all of our problems.
That's an odd point; I've never heard of the welfare state being deemed to represent "traditional values" while "get a job" is being relegated to some newfangled cultural phenomenon.
   751. RayDiPerna Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:13 PM (#3323492)
"That's not the "general" welfare; that's one guy's welfare."

Not if you do it for everybody, it's not.


But it's not being done for everybody.
   752. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:14 PM (#3323493)
The problem is that in the United States the people who believe in the former do not trust the government to provide the latter. For instance in this thread, as far as I know, I am the only one in this thread who supports both of those things.

Well given my Catholic sensibilities, I can't support an expanded goverment safety net b/c I know it's going to subsidize all sorts of things I find immoral. The Great Society was a huge subsidy for illegitimacy. The goals of the single payer health plan advocates certainly include public funding of abortion, contraceptives, sterilization, in vitro ferilization, etc. that I find to be immoral. Not to mention the move towards "assisted suicide" by medical professionals.

I'd like to help the poor but the best way to do that is an industrial policy that stops shipping all our manufacturing jobs to China, and a reform of our public schools, so that those without higher education don't end up poor. I think it is far cheaper to subsidize blue collar jobs through tariffs, etc., than to end up with a European system where 20% of the population is permanently unemployed and on the dole.
   753. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:20 PM (#3323505)
I've never heard of elective surgery where you don't have to pay in full up front.

Believe it or not some of these are those that are insured, but 'can't afford' the deductible.

Or they agree to a payment plan prior to the surgery, and then after the surgery say, 'I can't afford this.'
I recall reading a study about a year ago -- I've just looked for a pointer to it, but can't find it right now -- which showed that supposedly indigent defendants, when denied public defenders, are routinely able to come up with money for private defense lawyers by borrowing from friends and family.
   754. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:31 PM (#3323519)
I recall reading a study about a year ago -- I've just looked for a pointer to it, but can't find it right now -- which showed that supposedly indigent defendants, when denied public defenders, are routinely able to come up with money for private defense lawyers by borrowing from friends and family.


this is why my wife denies these requests for forgiveness. Pay a little at a time or find another means. Beacuse my wife can afford to eat it isn't a good reason for covering somebody's health care bill.
   755. Shalimar Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:32 PM (#3323520)
But it's not being done for everybody.


Providing a floor is for everybody, you just don't think it applies to you because you can't conceive of ever needing it.

edit: or, in the immortal words of Craig T. Nelson in explaining why he shouldn't have to pay taxes to help all the lazy people: "I've been on welfare and food stamps...did anyone help me?"
   756. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:34 PM (#3323523)
"But it's not being done for everybody."

Sure it is. Anybody who meets the guidelines will be eligible. Even libertarians who make poor life choices and come down in the world.
   757. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:37 PM (#3323528)
Speaking of floors I think it was Tango a couple of years back who had a blog post about cutoff lines in baseball stats. Is 10 a HoF'er? If so what about 9.9? Is that close enough and if it is what about 9.8?

The same is true for societal help as well. Right now we have a floor but for some it is too low so they want to raise it because they see some people suffering. If you raise it it doesn't really solve a whole lot because you are still going to have people just above the cutoff who are suffering. So at what point is the suffering okay? How much money do you have to make to be allowed to suffer on your own? 80K? 50K? What number? People want to be compassionate and chide those who would put a dollar sign on suffering but we are all doing it. At some point the floor will reach a level where even the compassionate guy is going to say hold on this hurting me or this isn't fair.
   758. RayDiPerna Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:41 PM (#3323530)
But it's not being done for everybody.

Providing a floor is for everybody, you just don't think it applies to you because you can't conceive of ever needing it.


But we already have a floor. So Obama's work appears to be done. I'm not advocating taking that floor away.
   759. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:42 PM (#3323532)
We've never been anywhere near such a point, supposing it exists. And we're farther from it now than 30 years ago.
   760. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:43 PM (#3323534)
this is why my wife denies these requests for forgiveness. Pay a little at a time or find another means. Beacuse my wife can afford to eat it isn't a good reason for covering somebody's health care bill.
I know a lot of small firm lawyers, and their basic motto is: "Get the cash up front, because that's the only money you'll ever see." They encounter plenty of clients who ask the lawyers to let them pay later, and their response is this: I am a lawyer. I am not your mother, and I am not a bank. If neither your mother nor your bank think you're creditworthy, why exactly should I?

(That doesn't mean that these lawyers won't take on pro bono cases for truly needy people; it's just that they want to decide which cases will be pro bono, rather than having it forced upon them by deadbeat clients.)
   761. RayDiPerna Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:47 PM (#3323538)
"But it's not being done for everybody."

Sure it is. Anybody who meets the guidelines will be eligible.


And anybody who doesn't meet the "guidelines" won't be eligible. So you have B getting his health care paid for while A doesn't get his health care paid for. Instead, A does the paying.

This goes back to the Vaux discussion earlier. If B chose to follow his "passion" instead of putting himself in a position to get a job that actually provides financial stability, while A puts in long hours at the office (and at home) every week, why in the world should A have to subsidize B? I'm sure A would love to leave the office at 5 every day and then be free on the nights and weekends too. And if A got his health care paid for also, perhaps he'd be able to do just that.

So, no, it's not being done for everybody.
   762. Bob Dernier Cri Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:47 PM (#3323539)
Is 10 a HoF'er? If so what about 9.9? Is that close enough and if it is what about 9.8?

A version of the Sorites Paradox, I love it. Some remark a few days ago about whether it would matter a damn if Dale Murphy had 400 HR instead of 398 got me thinking about that.

This "floor" problem is probably why universal programs are preferable to means-tested ones. (Free public schools are preferable to means-tested vouchers or financial-aid at certain thresholds.)

And yes, this does mean that I think everyone except the Black Sox, Pete Rose, and Steve Garvey should be in the HOF.
   763. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:50 PM (#3323543)
or, in the immortal words of Craig T. Nelson in explaining why he shouldn't have to pay taxes to help all the lazy people: "I've been on welfare and food stamps...did anyone help me?"

Priceless. Though the exact quote was
"I've been on food stamps and welfare. Did anybody help me out? No!"


That goes alongside the teabaggers' "Keep the Government out of my Medicare" signs.
   764. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:52 PM (#3323547)
Then there is the crying baby syndrome. Nobody wants to see a crying baby on TV and yet the policies and choices we make helps create those crying babies. So when we see them we rush to stop the kid from crying and in doing so we create a crying baby on the other side of the room which again we cannot tolerate so we rush over there and so the original baby starts crying again or maybe two new ones join in as well. Eventually you snap and either become a soulless republican/libertarian or you go on a killing spree and kill all the babies.
   765. Guapo Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:54 PM (#3323548)
Note to self: Scratch plans to ask McCoy if he can babysit this weekend
   766. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:56 PM (#3323552)
That goes alongside the teabaggers' "Keep the Government out of my Medicare" signs.

It wasn't just the teabagger who had this stupid position. I remmber when Obama was swinging through the north midwest CNN was polling those areas to see how they felt about government health care. I believe the majority didn't want the government to run healthcare. They thought it was a bad idea but they did by an overwhelming majority want what they currently had and by an overwhelming majority thought what they currently had was well run and what they had was government healthcare or at least heavily subsidized healthcare.
   767. RJ in TO Posted: September 16, 2009 at 03:56 PM (#3323554)
Note to self: Recommend McCoy as baby-sitter to annoying neighbors.
   768. Sheer Tim Foli Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:00 PM (#3323562)
We aren't THAT annoying. You could at least take your Christmas tree lights down.
   769. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:08 PM (#3323572)
"And anybody who doesn't meet the "guidelines" won't be eligible. So you have B getting his health care paid for while A doesn't get his health care paid for. Instead, A does the paying."

You assume (incorrectly) that A will always be too rich to be eligible. If he ever suffers a catastrophic financial loss (bad investment, business failure, a medical problem that wipes out his savings and gets him dropped by his provider, etc.), he'll still get the benefit of the program even though he never used to need it.
   770. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:10 PM (#3323576)
"Note to self: Scratch plans to ask McCoy if he can babysit this weekend"

McCoy: The final solution to your babysitting problems.
   771. RayDiPerna Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:13 PM (#3323582)
You assume (incorrectly) that A will always be too rich to be eligible.


No. I assume (correctly) that there will always be A's.

You will always be counting only a subset of the population as "eligible." That is a fact. One group of people will always have their income redistributed to another group of people. The fact that the precise makeup of the groups changes is immaterial. The bottom line is that "everyone" is most certainly not included. If a person is paying more than he receives, he is not getting the benefit.
   772. zonk Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:19 PM (#3323591)
But it's not being done for everybody.

Providing a floor is for everybody, you just don't think it applies to you because you can't conceive of ever needing it.




But we already have a floor. So Obama's work appears to be done. I'm not advocating taking that floor away.


Balderdash and ########.

The problem is that the system forces people off the floor onto it. Medicaid eligible numbers keep growing not because many states have raised the upper-end income limits (many states, in fact, are cutting both benefits and eligibility) - but because more people are being pushed down into eligibility.

A system that makes falling onto the safety net the better - and in many cases, the ONLY option - is a broken system.

One hell of a lot more people in the range above the floor get pushed onto it (at the same - more people at the next step - in a employer-sponsored plan, for example, fall into the gap just above the floor) than take the step up to the next level.
   773. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:21 PM (#3323595)
Ray, are you under the impression that I don't work hard?

Musicians of all kinds, and academics of all kinds, work as many hours as anyone, I can assure you; where do you think all that research comes from, under a cabbage leaf?

(And for the umpteenth time, in case some reader thinks otherwise, I'm not whining about being impoverished and not having a Lexus, I'm upset that if I had a catastrophic illness I would have no recourse but to incur gigantic debts and eventually declare bankruptcy.)

Side comment: I do think everyone should be free on the nights and weekends. There are more than enough people around to get all the work done if the workload was distributed properly (and a lot of the work is nonsense that doesn't need to be done anyway).
   774. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:24 PM (#3323599)
Eventually you snap and either become a soulless republican/libertarian or you go on a killing spree and kill all the babies.

And then the Government uses your tax dollars to arrest you, and uses our tax dollars to feed you that fancy fried baloney, while we have to make do with baloney COLD OUT OF THE PACKAGE!!!

It just ain't right. Nope, it just ain't right.
   775. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:25 PM (#3323601)
If everyone was free on nights and weekends where would everybody go?
   776. zonk Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:26 PM (#3323602)
That goes alongside the teabaggers' "Keep the Government out of my Medicare" signs.

It wasn't just the teabagger who had this stupid position. I remmber when Obama was swinging through the north midwest CNN was polling those areas to see how they felt about government health care. I believe the majority didn't want the government to run healthcare. They thought it was a bad idea but they did by an overwhelming majority want what they currently had and by an overwhelming majority thought what they currently had was well run and what they had was government healthcare or at least heavily subsidized healthcare.


There have been multiple occurrences of the stupidity...

One GOP congressman that actually has caught my eye (in a good way) over the last few months -- SC Republican Bob Inglis -- tried at length to explain this to a constituent at a town hall.

Even Inglis has a pretty conservative voting record, I have little doubt that the Club for Growth will be primarying him.

Too bad.. the GOP should be looking for more Inglis', not shunting the few that remain away in favor of Bachman-esque crazy-towners.
   777. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:29 PM (#3323606)
No. I assume (correctly) that there will always be A's.

You will always be counting only a subset of the population as "eligible." That is a fact. One group of people will always have their income redistributed to another group of people. The fact that the precise makeup of the groups changes is immaterial. The bottom line is that "everyone" is most certainly not included. If a person is paying more than he receives, he is not getting the benefit.


The benefit is not participation in the health plan right now. The benefit is eligibility for the health plan if their circumstances worsen, i.e. the knowledge that if they DO lose everything, they won't have to let cancer eat them alive because they can't afford to see a doctor.

And everyone receives that benefit.
   778. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:29 PM (#3323607)
People are protected against catastrophic injury and you already mentioned one of the solutions which is bankruptcy and the other being the government. Catastrophic injury is always going to a very small percentage of any group. Trying to protect everyone in a way you like against it is liking killing the patient to cure the cold. Catastrophic injury is like the bogeyman people are using to scare people into doing something and yet it is such a rare occurrence that it reminds me of the Bush regimes tactic of using the threat of terrorism to get people to do what they wanted them to do.
   779. RJ in TO Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:30 PM (#3323613)
Too bad.. the GOP should be looking for more Inglis', not shunting the few that remain away in favor of Bachman-esque crazy-towners.

They should be doing that, but I kind of enjoy having at least a couple complete lunatics like Bachmann around. The level of stupidity she spouts is some of the best free entertainment available.
   780. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:41 PM (#3323632)
A public hospital would treat me for cancer indefinitely as long as I declared bankruptcy and paid them $50 a month?
   781. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:44 PM (#3323637)
And then went on the government dole.
   782. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:46 PM (#3323639)
A public hospital would treat me for cancer indefinitely as long as I declared bankruptcy and paid them $50 a month?


And then went on the government dole.

While keeping the government out of the health care business.
   783. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:50 PM (#3323644)
And you can't be gay.
   784. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:52 PM (#3323646)
That goes alongside the teabaggers' "Keep the Government out of my Medicare" signs.
They're tea partiers, not "teabaggers," a sexual slur.

There were no such "signs." Some random people have claimed to have heard these comments from friends of a friend, always without attribution as to date or place; in short, they're urban legends.

EDIT: And of course the claim that someone was actually saying "keep government out of Medicare" sounds like a ludicrous interpretation of what someone might have said, anyway; it would be more likely that they were saying, "Keep government from screwing with the Medicare we have now."
   785. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 04:59 PM (#3323651)
When I quit my job I took what little I had in my savings account and invested it in the stock market ). I figured I might as well put my money to work for me and because I did this I experienced a catastrophic loss (hell, Andy a year or so ago was touting index funds which if one had followed up on one would have lost their shirt). I've suffered hardships but because I'm not on welfare and because I make more than the cutoff I am SOL so where is my safety net? Where are the BTF posters fighting to get me money so I don't have to suffer hardships? There are none because stock market losses are not viewed as a poor people problem yet I am terribly inconvenienced because of my losses and will be so for years. So which Republican is the Kennedy of helping poor stock holders out?
   786. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:00 PM (#3323652)
EDIT: And of course the claim that someone was actually saying "keep government out of Medicare" sounds like a ludicrous interpretation of what someone might have said, anyway; it would be more likely that they were saying, "Keep government from screwing with the Medicare we have now."

Just like if Craig T. Nelson wasn't in front of camera when he said what he said almost all of us would find it hard to believe that he actually said it.
   787. Gaelan Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:08 PM (#3323657)
I've suffered hardships but because I'm not on welfare and because I make more than the cutoff I am SOL so where is my safety net? Where are the BTF posters fighting to get me money so I don't have to suffer hardships? There are none because stock market losses are not viewed as a poor people problem yet I am terribly inconvenienced because of my losses and will be so for years. So which Republican is the Kennedy of helping poor stock holders out?


I totally agree with this which is why I keep saying single payer system that covers everyone. It isn't charity and it doesn't require a transfer of wealth from people like McCoy to people worse off than McCoy. The problem with Obama's plan is that he's trying to work with the system. The system needs to be burned to the ground. If it isn't the result will be worse than the status quo.
   788. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:15 PM (#3323668)
When I quit my job I took what little I had in my savings account and invested it in the stock market ). I figured I might as well put my money to work for me and because I did this I experienced a catastrophic loss (hell, Andy a year or so ago was touting index funds which if one had followed up on one would have lost their shirt). I've suffered hardships but because I'm not on welfare and because I make more than the cutoff I am SOL so where is my safety net? Where are the BTF posters fighting to get me money so I don't have to suffer hardships? There are none because stock market losses are not viewed as a poor people problem yet I am terribly inconvenienced because of my losses and will be so for years. So which Republican is the Kennedy of helping poor stock holders out?


Past performance is not indicative of future results. Perhaps you should've diversified, or perhaps you should not have exposed cash to equity markets if you are/were in need of said cash in the short-term. Or, perhaps you used an advisor, maybe you could sue them for violating their fiduciary responsibility? Did you use a broker? Was the investment suitable for you? Those are your safety nets. Otherwise caveat emptor.
   789. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:18 PM (#3323672)
Past performance is not indicative of future results. Perhaps you should've diversified, or perhaps you should not have exposed cash to equity markets if you are/were in need of said cash in the short-term. Or, perhaps you used an advisor, maybe you could sue them for violating their fiduciary responsibility? Did you use a broker? Was the investment suitable for you? Those are your safety nets. Otherwise caveat emptor.

And people are saying basically the same thing about health care insurance and the other side is saying that they lack compassion or think that poor people are lazy and stupid. Hell, we got people on this site saying that $200 a month for health insurance is too much for health insurance.

Perhaps you should've diversified

I should have, I would actually be up right now if I had. On paper I selected about 15 stocks that I liked with the money I was investing but in reality I didn't buy those 15 stocks. If I had I would be up 28% as of right now a year later but instead I went for the quick pop which I got. But then I got greedy and really the quick pop happened too quickly for me. I invested my money and within a week I had gained 20% in value so I stayed in. I made a stupid decision and got burned. But is my situation any different than some person who decides to go without health insurance so he can have a big screen TV or live by himself?
   790. Best Regards, Larry Mahnken (Dewey is a slacker) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:20 PM (#3323674)
Hell, we got people on this site saying that $200 a month for health insurance is too much for health insurance.
That would be 18.5% of my post-tax income.
   791. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:24 PM (#3323675)
Would you rather suffer a catastrophic injury that accounts for 100000% of your income?
   792. Morty Causa Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:29 PM (#3323678)
   793. zonk Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:32 PM (#3323682)
Signs

More

More Again


Or - David, do you trust GOP(R) Congressman Bob Inglis himself?

In other pockets of the state, the reaction to Democratic proposals has been strong, too. At a recent town-hall meeting in suburban Simpsonville, a man stood up and told Rep. Robert Inglis (R-S.C.) to "keep your government hands off my Medicare."

"I had to politely explain that, 'Actually, sir, your health care is being provided by the government,' " Inglis recalled. "But he wasn't having any of it."


But yeah... I'm sure it's just another of those 'urban legends' -- like the one about Caribou Barbie being fit to be President :-)
   794. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:32 PM (#3323683)
And people are saying basically the same thing about health care insurance and the other side is saying that they lack compassion or think that poor people are lazy and stupid. Hell, we got people on this site saying that $200 a month for health insurance is too much for health insurance.


I do not disagree with you. Let's take another situation. Suppose I own a home, that I can afford, the mortgage app. was above board, and I have 20% equity, current on mortgage payments, etc. etc., but I'm close to month to month on my cash flow, and my water heater goes out. Not as life threatening as say a medical condition, but you pretty much cannot function a home normally w/o it. The plumber is going to kick me in the nuts if I ask him to forget about the bill, because I can't afford to pay him. Is the plumber a cold hearted S.O.B?
   795. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:32 PM (#3323684)
Just glancing over them but so far my favorite is "Everyone needs food & shelter but that doesn't mean they have a "right" to them.
   796. Morty Causa Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:32 PM (#3323685)
Stupid Flanders.


I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead.

It's not easy to juggle a pregnant wife and a troubled child, but somehow I managed to squeeze in 8 hours [on the internet] a day.
   797. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:33 PM (#3323687)
e
   798. Morty Causa Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:36 PM (#3323691)
But yeah... I'm sure it's just another of those 'urban legends' -- like the one about Caribou Barbie being fit to be President :-)


Even Dumb Blondes Know a Dumb Blonde When They See One
   799. Best Regards, Larry Mahnken (Dewey is a slacker) Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:37 PM (#3323692)
Would you rather suffer a catastrophic injury that accounts for 100000% of your income?
On one hand, I could take that risk. On the other hand, I could spend nearly every penny I make on insurance, food, housing, a car and non-discretionary expenses and never have any hope of living a better life.

Which one do you think people are going to take?
   800. zonk Posted: September 16, 2009 at 05:41 PM (#3323695)
Or noted conservative economist Andrew Laffer on CNN:

"If you like the Post Office and the Department of Motor Vehicles and you think they’re run well, just wait till you see Medicare, Medicaid and health care done by the government."


Or a compendium!

Or another!
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